Subcultures

Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?

Subcultures like for example - Zoot suiters and gangbangers, mainstream hip-hop, mediated muggings or other acts of vandalism and violence on the picture telephones, gun cultures, gang cultures (both male and female)...

Do these reflect on todays western culture and reinforcement of what we should all have - fast car, money, be beautiful, and successfully and seek that all important respect, or is it reflection of something completely different?

Thoughts?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?

Certainly

Do these reflect on todays western culture and reinforcement of what we should all have - fast car, money, be beautiful, and successfully and seek that all important respect, or is it reflection of something completely different?

Thoughts?

Depending on the circumstances of the individual alot of what you describe gives people hope that they can make a better tomorrow for themselves that their suffering today will generate success tomorrow, at least that's what I see.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?

Subcultures like for example - Zoot suiters and gangbangers, mainstream hip-hop, mediated muggings or other acts of vandalism and violence on the picture telephones, gun cultures, gang cultures (both male and female)...

Do these reflect on todays western culture and reinforcement of what we should all have - fast car, money, be beautiful, and successfully and seek that all important respect, or is it reflection of something completely different?

Thoughts?

There is an art behind all that imagery. However, the violence and the "tough guy" mentality which seems to govern it ruins the aesthetics inside. For me it doesn't reflect western culture. But rather reflect themselves. Are they violent? Yes. Could they introduce their art without violence? Of course. The latter would be much more welcome.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?

Subcultures like for example - Zoot suiters and gangbangers, mainstream hip-hop, mediated muggings or other acts of vandalism and violence on the picture telephones, gun cultures, gang cultures (both male and female)...

Do these reflect on todays western culture and reinforcement of what we should all have - fast car, money, be beautiful, and successfully and seek that all important respect, or is it reflection of something completely different?

Thoughts?

I wish the world was like Martin envisioned. Its not. Only the strong survive, those who dream and try always win in the end. Money, cars and women will always go hand in hand. When u die, your maker judges and u enter heaven or hell

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?

Subcultures like for example - Zoot suiters and gangbangers, mainstream hip-hop, mediated muggings or other acts of vandalism and violence on the picture telephones, gun cultures, gang cultures (both male and female)...

Do these reflect on todays western culture and reinforcement of what we should all have - fast car, money, be beautiful, and successfully and seek that all important respect, or is it reflection of something completely different?

Thoughts?

I think it can do in the case of hip hop. Everbody wants to be a gangster, even if their not deprived.

I think that there would be an "artistic potential" behind it like WrathfulDwarf was saying, but today it just seems to be a way to justify violence putting it as just a different style to be confused as art. There are different things in the world, we can not just say everything is art or just a different style.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I think it can do in the case of hip hop. Everbody wants to be a gangster, even if their not deprived.

Ineresting!

Now, on the other side of the spectrum, and I would like your honest opinion -

What do you think about media and its representation to the young men (black, white, hispanic, asian, south asian..etc) of such culture?
Do you think media has more to do with this, than the actual people who are getting involved?

Originally posted by Atlantis001
I think that there would be an "artistic potential" behind it like WrathfulDwarf was saying, but today it just seems to be a way to justify violence putting it as just a different style to be confused as art. There are different things in the world, we can not just say everything is art or just a different style.

What about media itself? Do you believe violence sells?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?

Subcultures like for example - Zoot suiters and gangbangers, mainstream hip-hop, mediated muggings or other acts of vandalism and violence on the picture telephones, gun cultures, gang cultures (both male and female)...

Do these reflect on todays western culture and reinforcement of what we should all have - fast car, money, be beautiful, and successfully and seek that all important respect, or is it reflection of something completely different?

Thoughts?

Sociology Homework I suspect.

Reminds me of Stanley Cohen 😉

Everyone loves the Sociology of Deviance etc.

I don't think this is a "subculture" phenomenon at all.

IMO, we live in a world dominated by the Financial Elite: the movers and shakers of a money-driven, globe-encompassing Western culture which, for the rest of us (the cattle fodder) Promises More, Demands More and Delivers Less. In this context, people feel less secure / more anxious than ever. The quickest, cheapest path to re-empowerment? Exactly as socially engineered: appeal to the baser instincts (sex and violence) through a service or product, such that You (the cattle, um, consumer) can look and/or feel younger, sexier, "badder," etc.

Originally posted by Mindship
I don't think this is a "subculture" phenomenon at all.

IMO, we live in a world dominated by the Financial Elite: the movers and shakers of a money-driven, globe-encompassing Western culture which, for the rest of us (the cattle fodder) Promises More, Demands More and Delivers Less. In this context, people feel less secure / more anxious than ever. The quickest, cheapest path to re-empowerment? Exactly as socially engineered: appeal to the baser instincts (sex and violence) through a service or product, such that You (the cattle, um, consumer) can look and/or feel younger, sexier, "badder," etc.

You think that much thought is put into keeping us "down" when even for obviously educated people like you and I the ladder simply doesn't reach that high without a great deal of good fortune Mindship.

Originally posted by The Libertine
You think that much thought is put into keeping us "down" when even for obviously educated people like you and I the ladder simply doesn't reach that high without a great deal of good fortune Mindship.

It's a complex mix of variables, to be sure. Luck, timing and especially the choices we make. This would include choosing to be more conscious of why we do the things we do, rather than responding trance-like to the status signals we are bombarded with 25/8.

Originally posted by Mindship
It's a complex mix of variables, to be sure. Luck, timing and especially the choices we make. This would include choosing to be more conscious of why we do the things we do, rather than responding trance-like to the status signals we are bombarded with 25/8.

Meh, I say it's an energy thing , most of us only have the energy to rise so far because the struggle is so great. We go to school do well, go to University do well, start work and reach a management position after say 10 years. Then a cap seems to happen for whatever reason. Unless we are ruthless and I simply don't enjoy climbing on peoplpe and raising myself at their expense which is what those in higher tier management in my field seem to have done. I prefer sleeping at night.

Originally posted by Mindship
I don't think this is a "subculture" phenomenon at all.

IMO, we live in a world dominated by the Financial Elite: the movers and shakers of a money-driven, globe-encompassing Western culture which, for the rest of us (the cattle fodder) Promises More, Demands More and Delivers Less. In this context, people feel less secure / more anxious than ever. The quickest, cheapest path to re-empowerment? Exactly as socially engineered: appeal to the baser instincts (sex and violence) through a service or product, such that You (the cattle, um, consumer) can look and/or feel younger, sexier, "badder," etc.

And I agree.

But do you not believe that subcultures such as ''bad ass hip hop gangster of 50 cent crew'' has embodied just that into their subculture?

Which is of course different (although not greatly) to a subculture of graffiti, where the symbolism of writing and expressing on public property has a more of a symbolism then perhaps a gun will?

On one side there is ''Culture as Crime'' on the other there is a 'Crime as Culture''

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And I agree.

But do you not believe that subcultures such as ''bad ass hip hop gangster of 50 cent crew'' has embodied just that into their subculture?

Which is of course different (although not greatly) to a subculture of graffiti, where the symbolism of writing and expressing on public property has a more of a symbolism then perhaps a gun will?

On one side there is ''Culture as Crime'' on the other there is a 'Crime as Culture''

Yup it's all covered in the Chapter on "The Sociology of Deviance".

Originally posted by The Libertine
Yup it's all covered in the Chapter on "The Sociology of Deviance".

With regards that this is not a sociological debate on deviance, but a cultural.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
With regards that this is not a sociological debate on deviance, but a cultural.

Cohen might feel the two and thesociology of media are intertwined. Finish the chapter and see! "Sub Cultures by there nature are a deviation from the cultural norm how they are portrayed is down to the media." Westman, 93 I believe 😉 Don't ask me the page though. I think it's on the sleeve notes.

I guess I see socks everywhere nowadays. They **** with your mind, I tell ya.

Originally posted by The Libertine
Cohen might feel the two and thesociology of media are intertwined. Finish the chapter and see! "Sub Cultures by there nature are a deviation from the cultural norm how they are portrayed is down to the media." Westman, 93 I believe 😉 Don't ask me the page though. I think it's on the sleeve notes.

Cohen is the enemy!!!

No seriously, I thoguht for a second you were reading Giddens, and was about to dismiss you. 😛

Cohen's subcultural theories (and not just Cohan's, Cloward and Ohlin's as well) have long acknowledged that actions and identities labeled criminal are typically generated within boundries of deciant and criminal subcultures. However, wile I agree, I partially disagree too because...

Wait, wati wait, are you talking bout Albert Cohen or Stanly Cohen, and which book are you reading?
(or maybe you're way ahead of me, with Phil cohen 😛)

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Cohen is the enemy!!!

No seriously, I thoguht for a second you were reading Giddens, and was about to dismiss you. 😛

Cohen's subcultural theories (and not just Cohan's, Cloward and Ohlin's as well) have long acknowledged that actions and identities labeled criminal are typically generated within boundries of deciant and criminal subcultures. However, wile I agree, I partially disagree too because...

Wait, wati wait, are you talking bout Albert Cohen or Stanly Cohen, and which book are you reading?
(or maybe you're way ahead of me, with Phil cohen 😛)

I'm not reading either I have read all three, but I was alluding to Stanley via Westman. It is homework then? I was only kidding earlier. 😛

This might sound a bit odd, but it could be that problems within certain subcultures and crime are brushed off by cities because it brings money into the court, enforcement systems and that keeps people employed.