For all I know Michael and Lucifer does only exist in the Vertigo universe (never seen it stated to be a multiverse) and they have Yewhew's power and will.
Now Yewhew is not supreme, but Presence is.
Presence >> Yewhew
TOAA >> Living Tribunal
Now L. Tribunal can destroy multiverses and such at will, he's second only to the One-Above-All and he can do anything as long as the One-Above-All allowes it.
So feature-wise Michael nor Lucifer can surpass him, so saying, second to the supreme being in Marvel does not mean second in DC.
In all the cross-overs there has been proven to be a balance.
TOAA = Presence -- No doubt about it.
So the rest of Marvel must equal the rest of DC.
Marvel = DC (in terms of power) a lack somewhere means a fortity elsewhere.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
For all I know Michael and Lucifer does only exist in the Vertigo universe (never seen it stated to be a multiverse) and they have Yewhew's power and will.Now Yewhew is not supreme, but Presence is.
Presence >> Yewhew
TOAA >> Living TribunalNow L. Tribunal can destroy multiverses and such at will, he's second only to the One-Above-All and he can do anything as long as the One-Above-All allowes it.
So feature-wise Michael nor Lucifer can surpass him, so saying, second to the supreme being in Marvel does not mean second in DC.
In all the cross-overs there has been proven to be a balance.
TOAA = Presence -- No doubt about it.So the rest of Marvel must equal the rest of DC.
Marvel = DC (in terms of power) a lack somewhere means a fortity elsewhere.
That logic is fualty when considering supreme beings can create as many powerful beings as they choose. WHen you have truly infinite power, there is no lack or fortity. it simply is what you want. The presence has created several spectres. He could make his entire omniverse full of spectre's if he chose to. and the TOAA could make a billion preretconned beyonders.
Originally posted by Board Walker
The whole argument that LT will win because TOAA wont allow him to lose is as flawed and meaningless as saying "Michael will win because the Source wont allow him to lose."In a debate between character A and character B, their is no outside help from anyone unless otherwise stated in the OP.
Yewhew = God
The Source = The Holy Spirit
God >> Jesus > Holy Spirit > Saint Michael
That's the bible's hierarchy
Yewhew is weaker than the Presence and the One-Above-All
But then again "Physics and Logic" triumps Religion of any kind.
Si quis non amat Dominium lesum sit anathema maranatha. Amen.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
But fact is, the source is weaker than Yewhew, as the Presence.Yewhew = God
The Source = The Holy SpiritGod >> Jesus > Holy Spirit > Saint Michael
That's the bible's hierarchyYewhew is weaker than the Presence and the One-Above-All
But then again "Physics and Logic" triumps Religion of any kind.
Si quis non amat Dominium lesum sit anathema maranatha. Amen.
Please leave you personal feeling of religion and science out of the debates. Anyway, Michael from vertigo is not the same michael from DC main universe. hence why I specifically called him the arcangel.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Please leave you personal feeling of religion and science out of the debates. Anyway, Michael from vertigo is not the same michael from DC main universe. hence why I specifically called him the arcangel.
Originally posted by Board Walker
The whole argument that LT will win because TOAA wont allow him to lose is as flawed and meaningless as saying "Michael will win because the Source wont allow him to lose."
Just to add, this is an argument I've seen used several times in favor of Spectre. "If he is fully backed by the Presence, he wins." It's a flawed argument that shouldn't be allowed in either case.
Originally posted by celestialdemon
Just to add, this is an argument I've seen used several times in favor of Spectre. "If he is fully backed by the Presence, he wins." It's a flawed argument that shouldn't be allowed in either case.
No if the Spectre is fully back by the Presence at his best he is LT's Equal. This means any time the spectre is acting of the Presence will He is at full power. He still can lose as we know there are more powerful beings that the spectre. The only time the Spectre simply cannot lose is when he merges with the presence.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Vertigo is part of DC.
I'm not sure about this, though Swamp-Thing, who is now a Vertigo char, or was a Vertigo char, appeared also in some "standard" DC Comics. Can't recall if pre-crisis or post, anyway, it's quite possible that those two are in the Same "DC Universe".
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
No if the Spectre is fully back by the Presence at his best he is LT's Equal. This means any time the spectre is acting of the Presence will He is at full power. He still can lose as we know there are more powerful beings that the spectre. The only time the Spectre simply cannot lose is when he merges with the presence.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Where is this stated?
The fact that in vertigo, there is no hell, the fact that michael of the vertigo universe is not michael of the dc universe. the fact that the god of Vertigo goes by the name yehwehe or how ever you spell it and dc's god is called the presence. they are not in continuity of each other and are seperate multiverses that some beings happen to transend. Such as the spectre, and the endless.
Originally posted by Galan007
No hell in Vertigo?Where in the hell (no pun intended), did you hear that?
I read it in one of my books somewhere that hell was gone in vertigo. Dont' remember where. I'll send message to the resident vertigo expert. The point is that vertigo is a completely differnt multiverse than the DCU. And that there is a differernt michael in the DCU.