ROTS Anakin vs ROTJ Luke

Again, learn to understand the whole concept behind taunting your opponent, dumbass. It doesn't suddenly mean that you must be taking it easy or not seriously or anything, which is what you're trying (and failing) to prove.

Vader didn't see him as a clear threat, thats made evident through his constant berating of Obi Wan and the very visual guide your touting gives Vaders personal view which pretty much says. "Vader was confident he'd win" Obi Wan was no clear or present danger to Vader thus Vader didn't go all out. Why would he go completely serious against a foe he views as a joke, not only that its inconsistent with his latter performances in the movies. The quote is wrong.

Wow, clearly someone needs to learn how to read, because I never said that Ben and Vader were close or equals or anything, in other words that entire post was useless and a waste of time, so unlucky you big dummy.

You can't seem to grasp the fact that Vader performs better latter in the saga against a stronger opponent. That was the point of the post in comparison to ROTJ Luke. And yet I need to learn to read? Lol try again Nebaris.

The point is, no matter how much better Vader was, he was clearly trying his best against Vader. Vader's superiority is irrelevant.

Wow, clearly someone can't make sense to save his life.

The point I'm arguing is that he didn't hold back against Ben, and what he showed in ANH is an accurate description of how skilled he is.

And that point has been smashed. Not to mention its inconsistent with the movies.

Again you're wrong. The quote is in respect to the entire duel, so again, your post is a huge waste of time. Doesn't it feel bad wasting all this time and constantly being wrong, Papa Bear?

"As there battle brings them to the corridor outside the docking bay, the Sith Lord does his best ot wear down the aged Jedi and when Ben appears to surrender, Vader doesn't hesitate to strike."

Anyone with a brain(not you) will tell you that your little quote is about one section of the duel. Again your wrong.

Also, since when would you automatically fight with far less speed and skill when holding back from killing someone? It's not like Vader was trying to make himself appear weaker or anything, and it's not like he wouldn't be able to prevent himself killing Luke if he was fighting with all his skill, which you guys seem to think. Refraining yourself from killing your opponent in no way makes you fight with less skill.

Chop chop big guy!

I skim your posts since they lack any form of intelligence what so ever, so don't be surprised if I don't address your "argument"

I've already smashed this point, does a fencer who's holding back from making any contact blows and is only trying to dodge and pary his opponent and in all is is treating the match as a joke would he fight with the same kind of speed and ferocity that he would against a serious foe? No.

Say Lebron James was playing basketball with a kid, is he gonna dunk on him? Cross the shit out of him? Pack every shot he attempts? No. He'd play with probably 5% of his actual skill level.

If I'm wrestling around with my kid brother am I going to mount him, rain blows down on his head and break his face open? No. Would I do that in a real street fight? Yeah.

Holding yourself back from fighting your fullest = not fighting with your true skill. Common sense.

You seem to think that Vader was simply refraining from landing killing blows nut overall was using all his skills to handle Luke in ROTJ. No, Vader was emotionally conflicted, he has his son challenging 20 years of everything he knew, there is no way in hell he'd fight with his full skill, and yet THAT was STILL superior to his performance in ANH, which can CLEARLY be seen as Vader f*ckin with Obi Wan.

He also lacks experience, control, and wields his saber like a baseball bat.

That was in one bout of anger, other then that he shows skill in every aspect of dueling, experience has NOTHING to do with power (you should know that being a Bane cock sucker and all) control? Who cares.

Obi-Wan's expertise and mastery of the saber is much greater than Luke's

Are you serious? Those Soresu skills were long gone at that point, Luke proved in the ROTJ duel that he is physically stronger, faster, and a better duelist then Obi Wan. Not that mastery of the saber has ANYTHING to do with how good you are, do I have to remind you of:

Nomi: who picked up the saber and wielded it like a master on her first try

Exar Kun: Who beat Vodo as a padawan

Bane: Who with months of training beats a guy with 40+ years

Anakin: Whom all it took was his raw power to destroy Dooku who had been training for 70+ years in lightsaber combat.

If you think that this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SpwST6qToH4

Is better then this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqS5x-PiHpw&NR

Your a f*cking retard.

and he knows how to handle the kind of shit from Vader that Luke couldn't.

"Oh my days!"

Obi Wan Kenobi was shitting his pants at the mere presence of Vader, Luke was handling his own and winning against Vader who was displaying more skill then he'd ever shown in the OT.

And you speak as if Vader was leagues better in the other movies that he was in ANH, which is BS.

Yes, he is look at the damn clips.

Your whole argument revolves around the fact that your hoping Obi Wan was the strongest foe that Vader faced, and yet he faces a MUCH stronger foe in ROTJ and runs circles around his performance in ANH, thus making it look like he was joking around largely with Obi Wan and that his skills didn't even warrant Vaders full power. That is the ONLY In Universe explanation for the duel (since you complain about out of universe facts) without the movies contradicting themselves. Its common sense.

I say it how it is. Vader sucks donkey dick, bad.

Again leave your fetish for donkey cocks out of these debates. Nobody cares.

GayCStyles, when will you understand that your shit is whack and you all around suck dick?

Again your so clever! Let me ask you: how long did it take you to think that up? Nebaris aren't you on your second waring all ready? That kind of talk is ground for a banning. But you'll just come back because you have no life at all. Dude your a loser.

Okay, let me think about this.....................done!!!! ANAKIN!!! How can he not win. Yeah sure, Luke is fantastic, but Anakin has too much raw power and ability to use the force that the young Skywalker can handle. I think it will be a real long, tough fight, but Anakin will win.
starwars

God I miss Janus in times like these. The pipsqueak with two weeks of training who defeated his physically crippled father with the conflicting emotional problems,

vs.

The guy with the rock hard abs who killed dozens of Jedi single-handedly, kicked Dooku's ass, Obi-Wan's if he hadn't been so cocky, and did what he did before all that (I ain't naming it all).

Luke for sure man, his hair was way cooler.

Originally posted by allfg

No it doesn't, it means that he never used his powers to the fullest against Luke. Against Obi-Wan, he would have had no reason not to fight at his very best, and the Ultimate Visual Guide conforms with this. So unlucky about the quote in no way changing that Vader sucks donkey dick.

Vader didn't see him as a clear threat, thats made evident through his constant berating of Obi Wan

Again, you really need to understand how taunts work. They're used to sikologicaly break down your opponent, and this point alone in no way proves that Vader didn't consider Ben a serious threat.

and the very visual guide your touting gives Vaders personal view which pretty much says. "Vader was confident he'd win" Obi Wan was no clear or present danger to Vader thus Vader didn't go all out. Why would he go completely serious against a foe he views as a joke,

That was said in respect to his feelings before the duel. And again, you're working under the assumption that Vader can't possibly go full out against an opponent who he doesn't consider a serious threat. Perhaps his hatred of Ben made him want to go full out and annihilate him on the spot, even though he wasn't a threat, who knows? The point is, an inconclusive assumption in no way retcons a directly stated fact.

not only that its inconsistent with his latter performances in the movies. The quote is wrong.

Again:

1. The improvement really isn't great enough for you to label it as an inconsistency. Perhaps he slightly improved after that point.

2. A weaker opponent would enable you to show off more and display more skill.

You can't seem to grasp the fact that Vader performs better latter in the saga against a stronger opponent. That was the point of the post in comparison to ROTJ Luke. And yet I need to learn to read? Lol try again Nebaris.

1. You're ignoring Vader's improvement rate after his duel with Obi-Wan and his duel with Luke in RotJ.

2. He only performs slightly better.

3. Luke is in no way a superior duelist to Ben Kenobi. He wields his saber like a baseball bat, he lacks control, precision, he's inexperienced and hasn't even mastered a form. Ben's got far greater experience, his mastery and expertise with a saber is much greater, and he's in far more control.

BTW, only old men use words like 'latter'.

Wow, clearly someone can't make sense to save his life.

Wow, clearly someone is desperate to avoid as many points as possible. Don't be silly, clearly you can see what I was trying to say, so why not answer it?

And that point has been smashed. Not to mention its inconsistent with the movies.

Your wanabee rebuttal has been 'smashed'. Try again.

"As there battle brings them to the corridor outside the docking bay, the Sith Lord does his best ot wear down the aged Jedi and when Ben appears to surrender, Vader doesn't hesitate to strike."

Anyone with a brain(not you) will tell you that your little quote is about one section of the duel. Again your wrong.

OK, my bad, but in respect to my stance and your's, it doesn't change a thing. Vader was still trying his hardest at that particular point of the duel, and he still failed to show anything too impressive, so my argument remains, and you're still wrong. Unlucky about that.

I skim your posts since they lack any form of intelligence what so ever, so don't be surprised if I don't address your "argument"

I've already smashed this point, does a fencer who's holding back from making any contact blows and is only trying to dodge and pary his opponent and in all is is treating the match as a joke would he fight with the same kind of speed and ferocity that he would against a serious foe? No.

He would move as quickly as he could, he would dodge as well as he could, and he would parry as well as he could. Would he attack his opponent as quickly or as forcefully? Clearly not, but this is where your analogy fails, because a random fencer doesn't possess the kind of precision that Vader receives, to the point where he'd likely be able to hold his saber a centimeter away from Luke, yet still have the control to not kill him. Due to that fact alone, Vader wouldn't worry about having to go and attack Luke full out, because the force grants him the kind of precision where he would be in complete control, even when being as forceful and furious as possible. And it's not just that Vader showed a lack of skill, he actually showed clear signs of incompetence throughout the duel, such as when he couldn't defend against Luke's baseball bat onslaught, or when he lacked the skill to dodge that smoke tube that Luke sprayed at Vader in ESB. Would the fencer show those levels of incompetence against his opponent in your example? No.

Say Lebron James was playing basketball with a kid, is he gonna dunk on him? Cross the shit out of him? Pack every shot he attempts? No. He'd play with probably 5% of his actual skill level.

A basketball analogy? Basketball in no way compares to swordfighting, and the gap between Vader and Luke in power clearly isn't the same as it is between LeBron James and a kid in basketball skillz.

[/quote]If I'm wrestling around with my kid brother am I going to mount him, rain blows down on his head and break his face open? No. Would I do that in a real street fight? Yeah.[/quote]

Again, this analogy fails, again. In your example, you wouldn't be doing those things not specifically so you don't kill your kid brother, but so you don't hurt him. Vader had no issues with that, all he was doing was refraining himself from killing Luke. And when you include the fact that there's no pain factor included in swordfighting until someone gets a proper hit on you, your analogy completely fails.

Holding yourself back from fighting your fullest = not fighting with your true skill. Common sense.

Well when you put it like that, you'd be correct, but what you're doing here is called twisting what we're arguing about. My argument isn't that a fighter would display their true skill even when holding himself back from fighting at his fullest (that itself is actually a contradiction), what I'm saying is that simply holding yourself back from killing your opponent (and taking the force and other factors into consideration) in no way would make you display a false representation of your true skill, and definitely not so far as to show clear display of incompetence.

You seem to think that Vader was simply refraining from landing killing blows nut overall was using all his skills to handle Luke in ROTJ. No, Vader was emotionally conflicted,

Yet he was still perfectly alright with watching Sidious lightning the crap out of his ass for about 15 seconds. Please, his inner conflict wasn't a factor whatsoever until at the very end where he picked up Sidious and threw him down the reactor shaft.

he has his son challenging 20 years of everything he knew,

All the reason to fight to your fullest... Do you actually enjoy constant weakening your points as you go along?

there is no way in hell he'd fight with his full skill,

In your opinion yes. Methinks your opinion is pretty whack.

and yet THAT was STILL superior to his performance in ANH, which can CLEARLY be seen as Vader f*ckin with Obi Wan.

1. You're improving improvement rate.

2. Ben is a better duelist than RotJ Luke. It's easier to show off more against a weaker opponent.

3. You're over hyping the improvement beyond belief.

4. You're lame.

That was in one bout of anger, other then that he shows skill in every aspect of dueling

Not really, he doesn't do much better in the entire duel, clearly you have no clue at how to interpret swordfighting.

experience has NOTHING to do with power (you should know that being a Bane cock sucker and all) control? Who cares.

1. Rephrase this. I have no clue what you're chatting about, what the feck is power control?

2. Please AC, leave your orbalisk fettish out of this, you weird person.

Are you serious? Those Soresu skills were long gone at that point,

His speed and strength and maybe even a bit of his precision and handle over a lightsaber had gone a bit, but why his mastery? It's not like he was out of practise or anything.

Luke proved in the ROTJ duel that he is physically stronger, faster,

That's great for Luke, but don't start cheerleading his ass just yet.

and a better duelist then Obi Wan.

No, technically, he sucks, and much worse than Ben does (even though he sucks a little too).

Not that mastery of the saber has ANYTHING to do with how good you are, do I have to remind you of:

Oh my fricking days, this has got to be the dumbest shit you've yet to come up with. How the fvck does mastery of the saber have no relation on how great a duelist you are? You're dumb.

Nomi: who picked up the saber and wielded it like a master on her first try

Exar Kun: Who beat Vodo as a padawan

Bane: Who with months of training beats a guy with 40+ years

Anakin: Whom all it took was his raw power to destroy Dooku who had been training for 70+ years in lightsaber combat.

I'm not saying that mastery is the big be all end all of saber combat, but to deny that it's a factor is plain retarded. Are you retarded?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SpwST6qToH4

Is better then this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqS5x-PiHpw&NR

Your a f*cking retard.

Yeah, I'd pick Ben's controlled use of a lightsaber is above Luke's clumbsy use, skill irregardless.

"Oh my days!"

Oh my days, why are you being a copycat, you big copycat?

I was shitting my pants at the mere presence of Vader,

I'm sure you were you weirdo, but that would just be you, and certainly not Ben.

Luke was handling his own and winning against Vader who was displaying more skill then he'd ever shown in the OT.

Refer to my earlier posts, you have no point.

Yes, he is look at the damn clips.

Your whole argument revolves around the fact that your hoping Obi Wan was the strongest foe that Vader faced, and yet he faces a MUCH stronger foe in ROTJ and runs circles around his performance in ANH, thus making it look like he was joking around largely with Obi Wan and that his skills didn't even warrant Vaders full power. That is the ONLY In Universe explanation for the duel (since you complain about out of universe facts) without the movies contradicting themselves. Its common sense.

Refer to my earlier posts, you have no point.

Again leave your fetish for donkey cocks out of these debates. Nobody cares

There's no fetish, I just say it as it is: you dress up as Darth Vader and suck donkey dick.

Again your so clever! Let me ask you: how long did it take you to think that up?

It took me as long as it took you to come up with those awesome analogies.

Nebaris aren't you on your second waring all ready?

That's right, I'm on my second waring, you fricking dumbass.

That kind of talk is ground for a banning. But you'll just come back because you have no life at all. Dude your a loser.

Aren't you a college student? And you come here? Dude, you're lame.

"Oh my days" your about to get shitted on.

I'm not gonna respond to that whole crapped ass post because you've already ended the topic for yourself with this:

Yet he was still perfectly alright with watching Sidious lightning the crap out of his ass for about 15 seconds. Please, his inner conflict wasn't a factor whatsoever until at the very end where he picked up Sidious and threw him down the reactor shaft.

By that great logic, ROTJ Luke is better then Vader since he overpowered and beat Vader in straight dueling twice, something Old Ben couldn't do once, and even he made mention in the his POV in the ANH novel that if he could have beaten Vader he would have but he lacked the skills.

ROTJ Luke > Old Ben.

With that said, Vader himself manages to push back Luke (who is stronger then Old Ben) in straight dueling and he defended much better then he did in ANH, in fact his entire lightsaber style changes in ANH he duels with both hands which is NOT his custom style.

So lets see the evidence I have to support me:

-Vader curiously was not using his custom style that he had created in ROVD 18 years earlier and spent that time perfecting it against Jedi/Sith stronger then Old Ben to name a few: Dark Lady, Darth Maul, Roan Shyne (who at that point in ROVD was compared Obi Wan in his prime) the eight Jedi in Purge.

-He does however use his custom style against ROTJ Luke.

-Old Ben was shaking, perspiring, and overall was overwhelmed by Vaders presence.

-Vader knew he'd win the duel.

-Vader performs better against foes stronger then Obi Wan in ROTJ.

-Your quote doesn't make sense in the context its in, Vader does only two weak jabs and a slash and yet I'm seriously supposed to believe that is his best especially when he's dueled the likes of Darth Maul and won. Get the f*ck out of here.

-Old Ben displays NONE of the legendary Soresu skill he once had.

-Old Ben was hermit in a hut on Tatooine were its noted that the constant sand storms and hard living wear people down. Obi Wan who by the looks of him and his skills, hadn't touched his saber in years and was HEAVILY out of practice.

-Vader on the other hand, day job was to kill Jedi and had to stay on top of his game.

vs

-One quote that doesn't even make sense in the context its in, from a sourcebook riddled with errors.

All logical evidence points to Vader holding back, toying with Obi Wan.

Your argument = destroyed.

Discussion over.

BTW: I'm in high school dip shit. So run along now and get back to jerkin off to donkey dicks.

Well if you want to grasp to the literal meaning of the text, then wearing down in no way means kill, which means he was trying his best to make Ben more tired, most likely in an attempt to further ridicule him, before he chose to kill him. So, based on the English language that the quotes are written in, Vader was trying his best to make Ben tired and thusly, not trying not to kill him. Not trying to inflict the most possible damage you can = not trying your best, or not fighting to your maximum capacity.

For instance, Randy Couture, one of the world's best Grecko Roman wrestlers, and possibly the greatest UFC Champion ever (and soon to be new heavyweight champ!), was on Pros vs Joes. On the show, he wrestled i believe 4 or 5 guys in a UFC ring. Now, he wasn't trying his best to demolish the guys cause it would be too easy and he wasn't using his full arsenal and he was only submitting them; however, he was trying his best not to be submitted by them, and open stated that he help nothing back from his submission game on them. So overall, was he trying his best to beat them and hurt them? No, but was he "trying his best to wear them down", submit them and not be submitted himself? Absolutely.

Now on to the weaker opponent thing...Looking better or more skilled against a weaker adversary has nothing to do with the speed with which you move. It has nothing to do with your footwork or how well you tie lightsaber attacks together.

If the Colts played the Saints and Peyton scrambled back and threw a 30 yard TD pass, and then did the EXACT SAME play against the Bucs, the Colts' performance would physically look the same; however the performance level at which the Bucs were defending with, would pale in comparison to the Saints.

You can only compare one opponent to the other when fighting Vader, not to Vader. That's not a fair comparison. And I don't mean fair as in "i wanna be a master too, its not fair!" I mean fair as it is not logical to draw a comparison and contrast in that respect. If Luke was the weaker opponent, why did he get a hit in on Vader and then beat him? Vader holding back or not? Ben couldn't do it...but Luke could. Luke was much better than Ben at that time and showed it by doing better against a better Vader. Luke didn't make Vader look good, Vader did. He was much more agile and fluent with his motions, and even though was holding back, fought with more ferocity against Luke, as he still saw him as a slightly lager threat.

Coture is gonna beat the shit out of Silvia.

Anakin would win after a hard fight

No i think he would win little difficulty, Anakin is much more skilled then Luke by the time ROTJ.

For the record, From the novelization:

"Your powers are weak." Vader to Ben.

"You still have your skill, but your power fades." -Vader to Ben.

"Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our last parting." -Ben to Vader.

So I take it, while Ben was still a powerful contender, he had been more focused on the non-combat oriented parts of the force, while Vader just became more powerful.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
For the record, From the novelization:

"Your powers are weak." Vader to Ben.

"You still have your skill, but your power fades." -Vader to Ben.

"Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our last parting." -Ben to Vader.

So I take it, while Ben was still a powerful contender, he had been more focused on the non-combat oriented parts of the force, while Vader just became more powerful.

What has this, to do with this fight, between ROTS Anakin and ROTJ Luke?

I was posting it for AC, mostly, but, sorry if I've in some way offended you.

AC, COUTURE"S THE NEW CHAMP, BABY!!! You see the first punch he threw laying Sylvia on his ass?! That shit had me hyped. Bout time someone beat his b!tch ass.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
I was posting it for AC, mostly, but, sorry if I've in some way offended you.

Its okay, i thought you replied to my post.

Originally posted by Allankles
Yeah! But Anakin was just as talented if not more, and only lost to a prime Obi Wan. By 23 Anakin was probably as powerful as Luke by the end of vision of the future .

More powerful actually, ALOT more powerful.

And Anakin didn't lose to a prime Obi-Wan.

Vader did.

Vader was blinded by rage.

A clear-headed and focused Anakin would have cut Obi-Wan to ribbons in seconds and sent his remains into a stream of lava.

Everyone knows that.

Anakin takes this btw. 😉

ROTS Anakin is starting to learn his true power, but ROTJ Luke is already established. Lukes wins after a long fight.

What, you have to be kidding, Anakin takes this easy, he is just a better combatant.

Yup.