Test your own Morality

Originally posted by Fire
No I wouldn't do it.

Niether would I....I would not kill an infant for the actions of what he or she would do as an adult.

Originally posted by Fire
A) we need the knowledge we gained from the second world war and what happened during.

What knowledge would that be ? What assh*les some people can be ? The extant of human evil is nearly infinite ? I think we all already realize that without the Holocaust reminding us.

Originally posted by Fire
B) I seriously doubt that killing Hitler would have stopped the second world war, before it even began. The world was so screwed up during that period that war was almost inevitable.

It's not the second world war that we're talking about. It's the Holocaust that is the issue. Like Adam Poe said, presuming that killing Hitler would put a total prevention on the occurance of the Holocaust, would you kill baby Hitler or not ?

That's the point.

The question should be more like, would you kill someone as an infant that you know would kill one of your friends in the future, or become a child molester, ect. I know I can, just to know i can prevent suffering just to take a life that will be suffering anyways, all you have to do is pull the trigger, as long as I know i will not have any legal problems i would.

Originally posted by jgiant
The question should be more like, would you kill someone as an infant that you know would kill one of your friends in the future, or become a child molester, ect. I know I can, just to know i can prevent suffering just to take a life that will be suffering anyways, all you have to do is pull the trigger, as long as I know i will not have any legal problems i would.

Thank you for your honesty. Everyone else was feeding me semantic bullshit....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Thank you for your honesty. Everyone else was feeding me semantic bullshit....

Originally posted by jgiant
No prob, Haha...would you be able to do it?

no

I couldn't kill Hitler as an infant because as an infant he is completely innocent and not deserving of being killed. I don't beleive in punishing someone for something they didn't do (yet)

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If the theory of the existance of alternate realities is correct, than this point means nothing.

Changing the past is unconscionable, regardless of the motive.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Can you do it ?

No ****ing question I can.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Would you kill the baby Adolf Hitler to prevent the Holocaust from ever happening ?

Yes.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Is killing one infant worth saving millions of lives ?

Does a bear shit in the woods?

Originally posted by Strangelove
How so? Because there might be a universe where the Holocaust didn't happen, it should be just fine and dandy to change our past so it doesn't happen in this reality either?

I think allowing the Holocaust to occur when it could have been prevented is a far greater evil, than allowing it to happen simply because you don't want to disrespect the time stream 🙄

Originally posted by Strangelove
Changing the past is unconscionable, regardless of the motive.

Why ? 😬

Do you seriously subscribe to that idealogy that "everything happens for a reason"

If so, then what's the point to even trying anything ?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
No ****ing question I can.

Thanks for your honesty, thank you for going straight to the point and not feeding me any semantic bullshit as to why you think it shouldn't be done.

Honestly, I think most of you guys are full of shit...

Instead of just answering the question directly, you guys are trying to find loopholes around an actual answer, arguing how killing Hitler wouldn't really prevent the Holocaust, how changing time is immoral, blah blah blah etc.

That's pathetic....you guys can't just tackle this directly ? The question is quite specific....kill Hitler or don't....kill him as a child, or you never get that chance again.

Please stop side stepping....and if you DO not feel killing him would be the answer, then explain why, don't feed me this crap about how the holocaust is an important part of history.....why is it so important ? Why wouldn't you do it ?

Or why would you ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Honestly, I think most of you guys are full of shit...

Instead of just answering the question directly, you guys are trying to find loopholes around an actual answer, arguing how killing Hitler wouldn't really prevent the Holocaust, how changing time is immoral, blah blah blah etc.

That's pathetic....you guys can't just tackle this directly ? The question is quite specific....kill Hitler or don't....kill him as a child, or you never get that chance again.

Please stop side stepping....and if you DO not feel killing him would be the answer, then explain why, don't feed me this crap about how the holocaust is an important part of history.....why is it so important ? Why wouldn't you do it ?

Or why would you ?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I would not do it, because it would not stop the Holocaust. There were thousands of people involved in the Holocaust. One of the other main players may have taken power and not made the mistakes the Hitler made. So, instead of 6 million people killed there may have been tens of millions of dead people.

I would not do it, sounds direct to me.

What I am trying to say is why do we assume we have the worst possible past? Of all the possible out comes for WWII, we may have the best one. No one can really be sure, so killing Hitler may have been the wrong thing to do.

It is rather arrogant to come into a public forum, the Philosophy (the rational investigation of questions) Forum nonetheless, and dictate the allowable response from others. Aspects cited in the debate might not immediately be part of the dilemma, but they are still germane to the hypothetical choice if it were a real possibility. This hypothetical and abstract question touches upon much more than just the moral dilemma.

As it stands now, the main thing history can teach us is that human actions have consequences and that certain choices, once made, cannot be undone. They foreclose the possibility of making other choices and thus they determine future events. This teleological process would require uncomfortable lessons to be learned. Given this supposition, it is not inconceivable that killing Hitler to avert his crimes would be an action against the best interest of humanity.

[list][*]Is it right to commit murder, to avoid what one knows will be horrifying consequences for large numbers of people?
[*]Would actually committing such a murder be sufficient to avoid those consequences, would it make a difference?
[*]Is Hitler truly the primary cause of the horrors of the Holocaust, or is he the result of historical trends, which would have produced someone like him, even had he himself not been around?
[*]Would preventing the Holocaust from happening be tantamount to depriving humanity of an important lesson, one which it needed to learn? Would this be an action against the best interest of humanity?[/list]If you do not wish to address or at least consider these questions, then you chose the wrong forum to pose your dilemma.

I think people should refer to Adam's post. The first post is clearly hinting at a definite- though badly elucidated- scenario.

Would you personally kill a baby to stop milions being killed as a result of his adult life, all else remaining the same?

I think six million dying is quite an extreme lesson. I prefer blackboards and that.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Honestly, I think most of you guys are full of shit...

Instead of just answering the question directly, you guys are trying to find loopholes around an actual answer, arguing how killing Hitler wouldn't really prevent the Holocaust, how changing time is immoral, blah blah blah etc.

That's pathetic....you guys can't just tackle this directly ? The question is quite specific....kill Hitler or don't....kill him as a child, or you never get that chance again.

Please stop side stepping....and if you DO not feel killing him would be the answer, then explain why, don't feed me this crap about how the holocaust is an important part of history.....why is it so important ? Why wouldn't you do it ?

Or why would you ?

Perhaps you meant the question in this vein (which, apparently, no one is appreciating): For the sake of this argument, time travel intervention yields simple, predictable consequences. No one has to worry about something worse arising down the ol' temporal road. You go back, kill Baby Adolf, and the world Does Become a better place in the history to follow.

Under these conditions: yes, I would go back and kill Hitler because, IMO, his one life--especially his actions to come in that life--do not hold anywhere near the same value as the millions of lives which would otherwise perish.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I thought of this question for months, and still never came up with an answer I am satisfied with:

[b]Presented Situation: Mankind has come up with a time machine that will allow you to travel back in time before the Holocaust began. Your mission is to go back in time and assassinate Hitler, in order to prevent the Holocaust from ever happening. If you kill Hitler, the Holocaust will not happen, and all those lives will be spared

The PROBLEM: The Time Machine will only work once, and you only have enough power and accurate coordinates to travel to the time when Hitler was an infant. You have to kill Hitler when he was 2 years old. This will be your only chance to kill him and prevent the horrible atrocity that is the Holocaust.

Question: Can you do it ? Would you kill the baby Adolf Hitler to prevent the Holocaust from ever happening ? Is killing one infant worth saving millions of lives ? [/B]

I would travel back in time before he was dictator. I will go to the art ceremony he was in and make sure he wins the art award. That way, he would become a great artist besides a dictator.

Reading that did really hurt, Jacope.

Anyways, the question is flawed, though it is obvious what you are aiming at. There are many things to consider, as some said before, the Holocaust has brought a lot of good to the world too.

What you probably mean is a scenario where it is your decision whether one person dies by your decision or a million because of that person.

To me it is not answerable, I'd need further information.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I think people should refer to Adam's post. The first post is clearly hinting at a definite- though badly elucidated- scenario.

Would you personally kill a baby to stop milions being killed as a result of his adult life, all else remaining the same?

I think six million dying is quite an extreme lesson. I prefer blackboards and that.

Exactly, that is the question being posed here.

I am not interested in whether or not you beleive changing history is immoral (even though that is a good question, and may result in interesting responses, but does derail the thread to a degree)

I mean, feel free to speak your mind, if you really feel that strongly about it, then say so, but please back up your point. Do not just claim that changing history is immoral, then leave. WHY is it immoral?

And since many of you guys brought this up, is the worth of the lesson we learned from the Holocaust equivelent to the suffering and death that millions of innocent people went through ?

I personally feel it is not....if you disagree, then explain why....

However, please do not side step or evade the primary question while you are at it. Which is:

***********************************************************

*Presuming that killing Hitler would prevent the Holocaust, would you go back in time and assassinate him given the chance...the only catch is that you will not be killing him as an adult..you will have to kill him as an infant....can you do it, yes or no ?*

************************************************************

Incase many of you did not read my response, my answer was that I couldn't do it. Not because I feel changing history is wrong (especially since I believe in the possibility of alternate realities)- but because quite simply, I do not have the balls to kill an infant

Quiero Mota may have the balls to do it....heck, many of you probably have what it takes to kill an infant in order to save (or as you guys put it, attempt to save) millions of people from pointless slaughter and torture.

But I don't...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Exactly, [b]that is the question being posed here.

I am not interested in whether or not you beleive changing history is immoral (even though that is a good question, and may result in interesting responses, but does derail the thread to a degree)

I mean, feel free to speak your mind, if you really feel that strongly about it, then say so, but please back up your point. Do not just claim that changing history is immoral, then leave. WHY is it immoral?

And since many of you guys brought this up, is the worth of the lesson we learned from the Holocaust equivelent to the suffering and death that millions of innocent people went through ?

I personally feel it is not....if you disagree, then explain why....

However, please do not side step or evade the primary question while you are at it. Which is:

***********************************************************

*Presuming that killing Hitler would prevent the Holocaust, would you go back in time and assassinate him given the chance...the only catch is that you will not be killing him as an adult..you will have to kill him as an infant....can you do it, yes or no ?*

************************************************************

Incase many of you did not read my response, my answer was that I couldn't do it. Not because I feel changing history is wrong (especially since I believe in the possibility of alternate realities)- but because quite simply, I do not have the balls to kill an infant

Quiero Mota may have the balls to do it....heck, many of you probably have what it takes to kill an infant in order to save (or as you guys put it, attempt to save) millions of people from pointless slaughter and torture.

But I don't... [/B]

If the primus is you will stop the holocaust by killing the infant Hitler, then I would kill the baby, without any hesitation. The life of one child is insignificant when compared with the lives of millions, plus he will simply reincarnate in a new life.

However, how can you be sure that the death of one person can change history?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Exactly, [b]that is the question being posed here.

I am not interested in whether or not you beleive changing history is immoral (even though that is a good question, and may result in interesting responses, but does derail the thread to a degree)

I mean, feel free to speak your mind, if you really feel that strongly about it, then say so, but please back up your point. Do not just claim that changing history is immoral, then leave. WHY is it immoral?

And since many of you guys brought this up, is the worth of the lesson we learned from the Holocaust equivelent to the suffering and death that millions of innocent people went through ?

I personally feel it is not....if you disagree, then explain why....

However, please do not side step or evade the primary question while you are at it. Which is:

***********************************************************

*Presuming that killing Hitler would prevent the Holocaust, would you go back in time and assassinate him given the chance...the only catch is that you will not be killing him as an adult..you will have to kill him as an infant....can you do it, yes or no ?*

************************************************************

Incase many of you did not read my response, my answer was that I couldn't do it. Not because I feel changing history is wrong (especially since I believe in the possibility of alternate realities)- but because quite simply, I do not have the balls to kill an infant

Quiero Mota may have the balls to do it....heck, many of you probably have what it takes to kill an infant in order to save (or as you guys put it, attempt to save) millions of people from pointless slaughter and torture.

But I don't... [/B]

What does that tell us about our morality now?

Honestly, I think most of you guys are full of shit...

Instead of just answering the question directly, you guys are trying to find loopholes around an actual answer, arguing how killing Hitler wouldn't really prevent the Holocaust, how changing time is immoral, blah blah blah etc.

That's pathetic....you guys can't just tackle this directly ? The question is quite specific....kill Hitler or don't....kill him as a child, or you never get that chance again.

Please stop side stepping....and if you DO not feel killing him would be the answer, then explain why, don't feed me this crap about how the holocaust is an important part of history.....why is it so important ? Why wouldn't you do it ?

Or why would you ?

I answered truthfully on the first page. I wouldn't. The man was never found guilty of any crime. All any of us know of him is from war/post war propoganda. Hell, even another poster in this thread has fallen prey to propoganda as he stated 6 million jews had died in the Holocaust........when it was revealed a few years back that it was only 3 million....the Russians had estimated the death toll at Auschwitz as 4 million instead of it's 1.2 or so million that actually happened. If a man can be cleared of 3 million deaths over night.....he was charged with for decades only to find out they never took place.........who are any of us to condemn someone to death without a trial for the other 3 million deaths that occurred, based soly on propoganda released by his enemies.

It doesn't get any simpler than that. I wasn't there, you weren't there. We only know what the enemies of the nazis have told us. We later found out that a portion of what they told us was a lie.....so we are to condemn a man to death without ever knowing his side of the story, his defense.....based soly on the word of his enemies which lied about him in the past? I hope anyone who does that never serves on a jury if I'm ever charged with a crime.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
Hell, even another poster in this thread has fallen prey to propoganda as he stated 6 million jews had died in the Holocaust........when it was revealed a few years back that it was only 3 million.

Shit, sorry.

Don't worry about it then. I didn't realise it was so few.