Test your own Morality

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Umm...Lil B, we've been through this already...under the premise that killing Hitler would prevent the Holocaust would you do it or not ?

The point to this thread is to test how far you would go to stop something evil. Arguing about whether or not Hitler was the most necessary component for the Holocaust (NOT WWI or WWII) is irrelevant.

This has been said already, but why ?

1) What lessons were learned ? You guys keep talking about it, but you never actually describe what you are trying to say...

2) And secondly, whatever these lessons are, is our knowledge of them worth and equal to the unspeakable suffering that the Holocause victims went through?

I know one thing for certain....i could care less what lesson my torment teaches nebody....i aint gonna fkn allow myself to be tormented just so someone else can learn from my pain.

I seriously doubt the Holocaust victims gave a sh*t who learned what from thier torture.

Refer to my answer above.

I would not kill Hitler for that reason, as I would be assuming his role.
Other part of the question has been answered by Bardock and Storm.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
By killing Hitler you become no better than he is. You are assuming his role. He killed Jews because of some kind of morality of his. He certainly didn't do it for the heck of it.

I actually agree with you.

Sorta...

If i had to kill him, i'd rather do it as an adult when he is guilty of and responsible for his actions...even then, i'd find it a bit hard....a *bit...

But as an infant, i couldn't do it, because:

1) He'd be defenseless

2) He'd be innocent, he didn't do anything yet

3) He would die not knowing why

But I don't agree that by killing Hitler you become just like him. There is a major difference between assassinating a global threat, and killing and torturing millions of men, women, and children.

How can you possibly logically equate killing one person with killing and torturing millions and millions of people the way he did ?

If I shot him in the head (as an adult let's just say), I still wouldn't acquire the cruelty and bloodshed he caused for nearly countless people.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

So you named a few goods...

-decrease in Anti-Semitism
-global effort to avoid another world war

Okay....let's name the [b]bad that came from the Holocaust:

-millions of people dead
-families separated and humiliated
-people having thier genitals cut off
-people frying in ovens
-people starving to death
-people dying with thier organs exposed to the air
-infants being used for target practice
-people having thier teeth and jaws broken
-people having thier hands and other limbs broken or cut off
-people dying of severe cold
-pregnant women being frozen to death
-pregnant women being experimented on
-people being skinned alive
-people being impaled
-etc.

Unspeakable varities of pain and suffering.....I don't know about you, but I'd expect far more social advances and peaceful relations than we have today as a result from our "lessons learned" [/B]

I believe you redundant in reasoning, listing details as individual reasons. I find they could be reduced to:

-millions of people dead
-millions of people tortured (in various ways)
-etc.

Perhaps the reasoning others are trying to get across is that genocide of this kind would have happened at some point around their era, and perhaps in some small way, it is fortunate it happened when it did, for the earlier it happened, the less advanced the technology, and the lesser the distance of the reach of the hand of genocide. And of course the results of WWI and previous happenings of the time effected all things to come, from WWII and on, immensely.
These are boundless arguments in all directions on all topics, however; some opened on this page stretching from philosophy, to the holocaust, to the relevancy of the Füher, and they will all remain unresolvable as long as our viewpoints and personal biases remain. One factor my views request to be taken into account on matters of WWII, well, wars....and international (well, and national.....most anything, really) affairs, would be the spreading of propaganda, given and received by any and all sides. I am not one to doubt the event of the Holocaust, but neither am I one to take into account all that is said by one side concerning the actions of their enemy.
I anticipate the continuation of this discussion.

Originally posted by Ichy
I believe you redundant in reasoning, listing details as individual reasons. I find they could be reduced to:

-millions of people dead
-millions of people tortured (in various ways)
-etc.

I don't think the Holocaust should be reduced to that kind of simplication, as the words "dead and torture" hardly mean a thing to people anymore. It's when you actually KNOW what happened it detail, when you see pictures, hear the stories yourself, that you ACTUALLY know what happened.

Originally posted by Ichy
Perhaps the reasoning others are trying to get across is that genocide of this kind would have happened at some point around their era, and perhaps in some small way, it is fortunate it happened when it did, for the earlier it happened, the less advanced the technology, and the lesser the distance of the reach of the hand of genocide. And of course the results of WWI and previous happenings of the time effected all things to come, from WWII and on, immensely.
These are boundless arguments in all directions on all topics, however; some opened on this page stretching from philosophy, to the holocaust, to the relevancy of the Füher, and they will all remain unresolvable as long as our viewpoints and personal biases remain. One factor my views request to be taken into account on matters of WWII, well, wars....and international (well, and national.....most anything, really) affairs, would be the spreading of propaganda, given and received by any and all sides. I am not one to doubt the event of the Holocaust, but neither am I one to take into account all that is said by one side concerning the actions of their enemy.
I anticipate the continuation of this discussion.

And Interesting stance, and it sort of supports what most people were trying to argue, about the good that did come from the Holocaust, etc.

However, let me ask you:

Would you allow yourself and your family to be tortured for months/years then killed, so that the future generations could hopefully learn from your pain ? 😬

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Would you allow yourself and your family to be tortured for months/years then killed, so that the future generations could hopefully learn from your pain ? 😬

No.

I'm not that moral of a person.

In the spirit of the thread question (my apologies beforehand if anyone finds this offensive)...

...pick any one of the young girls in the last few years who were kidnapped and murdered. Suppose you received a visitor from the future (real-deal, no tangents) who told you this little girl would otherwise have grown up to start WWIII. Please note, I'm not asking you to be her killer; she's already dead.

How might this change your perception of the girl and her death?

Originally posted by Mindship
In the spirit of the thread question (my apologies beforehand if anyone finds this offensive)...

...pick any one of the young girls in the last few years who were kidnapped and murdered. Suppose you received a visitor from the future (real-deal, no tangents) who told you this little girl would otherwise have grown up to start WWIII. Please note, I'm not asking you to be her killer; she's already dead.

How might this change your perception of the girl and her death?

I wouldn't she's alreadly dead.

What she might have done doesn't really matter. From my point of view (and techically from this traveler's view as well) the girl is completely innocent.

Originally posted by Mindship
In the spirit of the thread question (my apologies beforehand if anyone finds this offensive)...

...pick any one of the young girls in the last few years who were kidnapped and murdered. Suppose you received a visitor from the future (real-deal, no tangents) who told you this little girl would otherwise have grown up to start WWIII. Please note, I'm not asking you to be her killer; she's already dead.

How might this change your perception of the girl and her death?

I would say, "You are from the future?" "How does that work?" I would proceed with hundreds of questions all in that vain. I would not be concerned about some girl, because I was talking to a visitor from the future. 😱

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I would say, "You are from the future?" "How does that work?" I would proceed with hundreds of questions all in that vain. I would not be concerned about some girl, because I was talking to a visitor from the future. 😱

RLY?

If we're doing stuff like that I would just kill him and steal his tech so I could become a supervillian. 😎

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
RLY?

If we're doing stuff like that I would just kill him and steal his tech so I could become a supervillian. 😎

You have to learn how to use the stuff first, you numb scull. 🙄

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You have to learn how to use the stuff first, you numb scull. 🙄

😠 I is smarts!!

Super tech = nothing to me 😠

[edit]: and you misspelled skull

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
😠 I is smarts!!

Super tech = nothing to me 😠

[edit]: and you misspelled skull

😮 If I had spelled it correctly, would you have gotten my joke?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
😮 If I had spelled it correctly, would you have gotten my joke?

If you had spelled it correctly I wouldn't have been sure it was you 😄 😛

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If you had spelled it correctly I wouldn't have been sure it was you 😄 😛

Well, I'm glad I lived up to that high standard. 😆

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[B]Yes it is. This isn't about a history lesson. This is about how far you would go to prevent something you thnk is evil. If you do not think what Hitler did was evil, then you can easily say, "I'd do nothing, because I don't think what he did was wrong"

Why are you switching words. I did not say he wasn't wrong. I said it wasn't evil. By not condemning the man as evil, you appear to be saying that I do not think what he was wrong......meaning I think what he did was right. Poor form.

Is that a fact ?

How do you know ?

because I exist in this universe I do not believe anything is evil.

If you think it was evil, then how far would you go to stop it...that's all. IF you don't think it was evil, then that's another story..you are free to say " i dont think what he did was evil", therefore I wouldn't stop it.

the original question never mentioned anything about anybody being evil. It simply asked: "Question: Can you do it ? Would you kill the baby Adolf Hitler to prevent the Holocaust from ever happening ? Is killing one infant worth saving millions of lives ?"

I gave my answer as no. I then gave the reasons. You then went on atleast twice to post how nobody was answering the question the way you wanted it to be answered.....until page 4 when Shaky's answer met your standards. Perhaps you should work on phrasing your questions to illicit the answers you wish.

Get your head outta your ass...I'm not here to judge. I'm here to know what people give more value to...the life of one human infant, or the lives of over a million people...and why...

that wasn't the question you asked. I myself believe 3 million lives is more valuable than one life. This is in direct opposition to my answer to the question you actually asked.......if I would kill an infant to save millions of lives lost because of a decision that infant would make when he grew to an adult. You didn't ask which was more valuable, you asked if we would personally kill somebody for that decision that led to the deaths. I would not as it's not my place to play advocate, judge or executioner for anybody.

That's all...the rest of you are getting all stupid with technicalities. That's why I intervened with some of the answers.

ok.....so you went 6 pages before getting the question out that you originally intended to ask? Next time just ask the question correctly the first time and you won't have to worry about stupid technicalities. "I'm here to know what people give more value to...the life of one human infant, or the lives of over a million people...and why..".........that pretty much summed it up. No reason for any mention of Hitler, Holocaust, a time machine.......nor any of us actually dubbing ourselves as executioner to be the one to end any life.

I would say, "You are from the future?" "How does that work?" I would proceed with hundreds of questions all in that vain. I would not be concerned about some girl, because I was talking to a visitor from the future.

If we're doing stuff like that I would just kill him and steal his tech so I could become a supervillian.

doh

Originally posted by Mindship
doh

I did give a real answer right after you posted actually.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I wouldn't she's alreadly dead.

What she might have done doesn't really matter. From my point of view (and techically from this traveler's view as well) the girl is completely innocent.

See 🙂

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I did give a real answer right after you posted actually.

See 🙂

Don't take Mindship wrong, he likes slapping his forehead. 😱 😆

Originally posted by Evil Dead
Why are you switching words. I did not say he wasn't wrong. I said it wasn't evil. By not condemning the man as evil, you appear to be saying that I do not think what he was wrong......meaning I think what he did was right. Poor form.

I never insisted that you thought what he did wasn't wrong. I know you feel what he did was wrong. Why are you taking it personal ?

Don't talk to me about bad form....you are the one who stated that I was playing the role of moral judge when I condemned Hitler's actions as evil, you were directly questioning my right and reasoning for why I condemned the Holocaust as evil.

I simply answered that if a person does not feel what he did was evil, then just say so.

If you do feel what he did was evil, then you should have absolutely no problems with me claiming that what Hitler did was evil.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
yes it is. nothing is universally evil.

How do you know ?

You're statement that nothing is truly evil is just as unsupported as my claim that some things are truly evil.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
because I exist in this universe I do not believe anything is evil.

Beleiving is not the same thing as knowing

Originally posted by Evil Dead
the original question never mentioned anything about anybody being evil. It simply asked: "Question: Can you do it ? Would you kill the baby Adolf Hitler to prevent the Holocaust from ever happening ? Is killing one infant worth saving millions of lives ?"

Yes, so what exactly is the problem ? 😬

Originally posted by Evil Dead
I gave my answer as no. I then gave the reasons. You then went on atleast twice to post how nobody was answering the question the way you wanted it to be answered.....until page 4 when Shaky's answer met your standards. Perhaps you should work on phrasing your questions to illicit the answers you wish.

Umm...you didn't read my statement correctly.

I clearly stated that I thought most of the people were full of shit...i didn't say YOU were, or ne one else.

Any answers arguing that Hitler was not directly responsible for the Holocaust was OFF TOPIC...that's not the discussion here. The discussion is what YOU WOULD DO given the situation.

I had no problem with your actual answer, so what are you bitching about now ?

Originally posted by Evil Dead
that wasn't the question you asked. I myself believe 3 million lives is more valuable than one life. This is in direct opposition to my answer to the question you actually asked.......if I would kill an infant to save millions of lives lost because of a decision that infant would make when he grew to an adult. You didn't ask which was more valuable, you asked if we would personally kill somebody for that decision that led to the deaths. I would not as it's not my place to play advocate, judge or executioner for anybody.

that's fine...neither would I .....

What's the problem ? 😬

Originally posted by Evil Dead
ok.....so you went 6 pages before getting the question out that you originally intended to ask? Next time just ask the question correctly the first time and you won't have to worry about stupid technicalities. "I'm here to know what people give more value to...the life of one human infant, or the lives of over a million people...and why..".........that pretty much summed it up. No reason for any mention of Hitler, Holocaust, a time machine.......nor any of us actually dubbing ourselves as executioner to be the one to end any life.

No

On the FIRST PAGE i made it CLEAR what the question actually was right after Adam Poe clarified:

UNDER THE PRESUMPTION THAT KILLING HITLER WOULD PREVENT THE HOLOCAUST...

I chose Hitler because he is the most hated figure in History, and the Holocaust is so far the greatest crime against Humanity.

You don't have to agree with me that Hitler was the most evil, or that the Holocaust was pure evil.

All I am asking is that if given the chance to kill Hitler as an infant in order to prevent the Holocaust, would you do it ? Yes or No...

I don't see where the problems would arise from this.

1.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes it is. This isn't about a history lesson. This is about how far you would go to prevent something you thnk is evil. If you do not think what Hitler did was evil, then you can easily say, "I'd do nothing, because I don't think what he did was wrong"

then you just posted...

I never insisted that you thought what he did wasn't wrong. I know you feel what he did was wrong. Why are you taking it personal ?

2. for something to be universal, it must be accepted by all (common use) or fact supported by evidence, data.

I know that I do not think anything is evil, therefore it cannot be universally true in the common use of the word. Since "evil" is an abstract, a thought, a feeling......it has no basis at all in the physical world of facts and evidence.

Beleiving is not the same thing as knowing

correct. You are discussing a thought. A thought I said was not universal.....you disagree. If I (a member of this universe) do not share a thought it cannot be universal.

3.

I don't see where the problems would arise from this.

I quoted you in the first quote box of this thread. Read the part in bold.