ESB is THE best SW Movie, period.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I'm sorry, but I can't help but notice a sort of contradiction in what you've just said. People don't cheer anymore...but they do.

...and I never said people "stood up"...I said they cheered, laughed and applauded.

Sorry, I meant that people don't do that at movies anymore. I've never experienced such a thing in theatres EXCEPT in Star Wars. The PT still has the magic of the OT.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I think people here will agree with me that audience members cheering with Yoda or Vader in the PT or whatever were Star Wars nerds who were at the same early showings of the movies we were at.

Nah, it was a big cheer, most the the theater was talking. I didnt' spoil myself for AOTC, i had no idea what was going on, but stammered a "Yeah!" myself.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
EDIT: And it's so very obvious why the PT has made more money. Really. Look at the marketing, number of theatres (which are mulitplexes btw), and distribution that exists today.

Lucas practically inveted mass-movie marketing with ANH. Desptie that, ANH made 7 times more than ESB. Marketing doesn't expalin that.

Even though fans blasted TPM, AOTC and ROTS still were remarkable successful. Fans going to see the move 5 times in theatres like I did don't account for that, espially if *whines* "true Star Wars fans don't like the PT".

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Well, I guess we'll never be able to convice you then.

You don't need to convince me of anything. Peole really over-glorify the OT, ignoring its flaws, then blast the PT for the same reasons that the OT sucks.

It just really bugs me. If you don't like the PT fine. Thats your choicea and your opinion. However, that doesn't give you a right to whine about it not living up to the highest expectations any sequel has ever had to bear 17 years after the previous movie. It also doesn't give you the right to fixate on the whole the "OT is the only real Star Wars" attitude and over-glorify the films as these magical perfect masterpieces of modern filmaking.

I love the OT. I remeber the first summer when I watched ANH hope as a kid. I was amazed. I wish I could have been there in 77 and seen it in theaters, to feel its context as a revolution in filmmaking and in the film industry instead of just reading about it.

I just get annoyed when people refuse to focus on the good parts of the PT, just like the do with the OT, or claim that the OT has some sort of monopoly on Star Wars and refuse to move forward. The PT is not to be analysed in the context of '77. Calling for Lucas to use models in the PT instead of CGI is like me saying that all the scenes in the OT should be refilmed with CGI instead of models. Its jsut rediculous and disrespectful to the films.

I'm not trying to piss people off or be an *******. I criticise the PT just as much as everyone else. Hell, I was motivated enough to start rewriting it I was so agitated by the directions Lucas took it in.

PT is great, all you haters will burn in hell, GL is a God and will not except infidels.

no one wants models substituting for CGI
for ships and backrounds its a winner
its just that beleivable interactive characters via CGI are in their early stages and are not 100% yet
not even 10 years after the S.E can they pull it off
CGI characters are ruining decent flicks
take Spiderman...3 films in and at times he still looks shite
they still look unreal and that is one of my major bug bears of the PT and other movies
if you have flawed cgi aliens straight outta pixar interacting with humanoid characters that dont gel you cannot connect with whats on the screen
its far too distracting in the PT from Jar Jar to Dex
every OT duel you can watch without any distraction..almost every PT duel you find yourself groaning at the CGI inserts
the swapped heads
and as for the Yoda V Dooku duel i watched the movie for a second time with some freinds and almost everybody in the cinema laughed
i love the Yoda character but the Yoda Duels just look absolutley ****ing ridiculous

add to this an exrutiating forced sense of "your having fun..were having fun" and actors stifled by poor direction it all adds up to a mess

ive really tried to like the PT but its a ****er
theres moments of greatness there but they are sometimes 30 minuites apart
and thats a weird one
they just arent good movies
as stated by MANY people here they are bunch of cool scenes and nothing else
i wish this wasnt the case but it is
if you love em good luck to you

I love em and Thx.

Originally posted by Alliance
What does this tell us? Star Wars became a phenomenon after ESB.

Excuse me? Did you ever see pics of the endless lines of people waiting for the cinema to open in 1977? Where people were marching down the streets in SW costumes? We're talking 1977 here!!! SW was a phenomenon the moment it came out!

Of course it was a phenomenon...and it wasn't necessarily even star wars fans in the lineups...it was freakin' everybody (and I'm talking full families going to see it) 'cause that's the kind of movie it was.

Haven't heard of one adult EVER that liked the Phantom Menace (which is the most family friendly effort from the PT).

Originally posted by queeq
Excuse me? Did you ever see pics of the endless lines of people waiting for the cinema to open in 1977? Where people were marching down the streets in SW costumes? We're talking 1977 here!!! SW was a phenomenon the moment it came out!

Let me be specific.

"Star Wars" the Movie was a cultural phenomenon when it came out.

Star Wars the saga, the mindset, the legacy became didn't kick into gear until after ESB, juding from the numbers.

The PT recieved consistant high earnings despite poor reviews and traveties like Binks and a whiny Jake Lloyd. everone say TPM just becuase it was the New Star Wars. Obviously people didn't go back.

However after the revolution that was ANH, why didn't people go see ESB? Why didn't the OT share that stability, that popularity, despite the fact that it is allegedly the better trilogy and real movies?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Of course it was a phenomenon...and it wasn't necessarily even star wars fans in the lineups...it was freakin' everybody (and I'm talking full families going to see it) 'cause that's the kind of movie it was.

Haven't heard of one adult EVER that liked the Phantom Menace (which is the most family friendly effort from the PT).

Lucas has repeatedly said that he likes to film childish movies. He says that about the OT as well.

I saw TPM once in theaters. I was 12 at the time. Honestly, I didn't like it. I barely even remeber seeing it. I didn't start liking it until I got older and got it on DVD. I think I watched the VHS once.

I'm not in the age group to really talk to '77ers about PT vs OT. But I can assure you that there are different perspectives.

And if Lucas inspired a new generation of Star Wars fans, why is that bad?

When I watch the OT, i feel distant. I love the films, but onlt understand what they are saying through history. Not so with the PT, every aspect I can feel. I already know.

One criticism, I'll certainly give the PT: not enough of it is about growing up, taking responsibility. Honestly, Lucas bit off more than he could chew in his arbitrary and sufforcating 2.5 hour movie limit. Everything is breif...the action, the interactions, we're always needing to move somewhere else. That is the PT's critical flaw.

Originally posted by Alliance
Let me be specific.

"Star Wars" the Movie was a cultural phenomenon when it came out.

Star Wars the saga, the mindset, the legacy became didn't kick into gear until after ESB, juding from the numbers.

That is a bold conclusion. I think it may have to do with new fans not quite getting it without seeing ANH.

And of course it became a saga with ESB, that's stating the blatant obvious. ESB was a sequel to a rouned off story, ESB had an open ending... What else did you expect?

Originally posted by Alliance
Calling for Lucas to use models in the PT instead of CGI is like me saying that all the scenes in the OT should be refilmed with CGI instead of models. Its just rediculous and disrespectful to the films.
[/B]

Cue the new anniversary adition with all life models, props and actprs replaced with CGI.

Star Wars became an epic saga with the arrival of Empire Strikes Back. The original was more of a quick jaunt in the woods, Empire is where the real mythic events occur, in a poetic way remniscent of Homer's poems, rather than a B-movie space opera.

Originally posted by queeq
That is a bold conclusion. I think it may have to do with new fans not quite getting it without seeing ANH.

And of course it became a saga with ESB, that's stating the blatant obvious. ESB was a sequel to a rouned off story, ESB had an open ending... What else did you expect?

Nuh uh. Not until AFTER ESB. ANH was a phenomenon, but STAR WARS wasn't a big deal. If it was such a big deal, why did 1/7 (max figure) of the people that saw ANH saw ESB and why did the numbers never comparably low again?

Originally posted by exanda kane
Cue the new anniversary adition with all life models, props and actprs replaced with CGI.

Ironic isn't it?

Some of the corrections make sense to me. Its nice to know that Jabba is after solo from ANH.

Honestly though, I found few worthwhile.

One I will give it is the added shots in the Death Star run. A few tweaks here and there from '77, Lucas has created the most visually stunning sequence in the history of filmmaking.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Star Wars became an epic saga with the arrival of Empire Strikes Back. The original was more of a quick jaunt in the woods, Empire is where the real mythic events occur, in a poetic way remniscent of Homer's poems, rather than a B-movie space opera.

haermm This is the sort of super-nostalgic romanticization that I hate. Comparing Lucas to Homer? Please tell me you've never read Homer and I might forgive you.

Sequal does not equal Saga. And apparently, no one cared about ESB.

There is a lot of people on record who in the 70s of the time of release of SW saw that flick a ridiculous amount of times
i recall reading and hearing of people who went at least 5 times and one kid i knew saw it 10 times
myself i went to see it on 3 occasions with my parents which was a unique thing for my family to do
from the selling of cardboard standees 3 month prior to the figures coming out to the OST getting to number 1 everything was HUGE
and thats in the UK
the people were there for Empire but only saw it once maybe twice
nothing to do with people not being there for it
SW was such a sensation and stuff like that rarely happens twice Empire was as loved but it could never match up
Empire was ****ing huge but nothing could eclipse the summer of 77
Every ****er saw that movie at the time..EVERYBODY
Lucas expected the same with TPM but the only people watching that more than once were the fans
There was a buzz prior to release and for 2 weeks until Austin Powers knocked it off the number 1 spot whereas the buzz of SW lasted from summer 77 to xmas 78 and then some
Empire as ive said could never match up
The sucess of SW or ANH was untold

I know ANH is a titan among films.

however, that doesn't explain the 1/7 in revenues. And why ROTJ and the PT remained stable (excluding the surge for TPM).

Originally posted by Alliance

haermm This is the sort of super-nostalgic romanticization that I hate. Comparing Lucas to Homer? Please tell me you've never read Homer and I might forgive you.

Jog on Alliance. You've found yourself coming to assumptions that simply can't back up. Lucas to Homer? No I did not say that. If you've read Homer, or have little to any knowledge of film in fact, then you'll understand how Kershner's direction influenced the saga in a large way. The colours, the locations and the familiar soundtrack all culminate in such a way that the limitations of the original are simply blown away.

Someone once said to me that Empire Strikes Back was nothing more than a link between Star Wars and Return of the Jedi. He failed to see that there was just a little bit of magic in Empire Strikes Back that other SW films didn't have. Super-nostalgic romanticization you say? I'd wish it was, but Empire simply set a benchmark for the saga.

Simply put, ESB is the best SW movie, without the fact that it brought b-movie material into an epic space opera.

im reading a box office report here and it says SW opened on 43 screens finishing with 1000 plus due to the "phenomena"
ESB opened on 126 and by 1983 ROTJ opened at 1002 cinemas
bearing in mind SW was re released a year on and by the time ROTJ was done there was obv a change in cinema viewing with the advent of the american multiplex
i dont know if the money made from the complete trilogy release which came out during ROTJs release was added to Jedis gross or split 3 ways
this doesnt give all the answers but there must be something in this
im going to dig deep and find out

im pretty certain that in the UK ESB made more money that ROTJ im sure for a while ESB was 8 and ROTJ 17th in our box office all time top 20

This is pretty darn cool...check this out (can't believe how much of a scene they showed in this review)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9jqHcc4rfg

(the quality is iffy, but gets a bit better)

I never really checked out your numbers until now Alliance...

Where did you get those???

You're telling me ESB made $52,000,000...just LOOK at that in comparison with all the other total...you're telling me you don't think that might be a calculating error or a type-0?

These are the numbers I got...and you gotta believe they're more realistc:

“Episode IV – A New Hope” (1977) - $460,935,665

“Episode V – The Empire Strikes Back “(1980) - $290,158,751

“Episode VI – Return of the Jedi” (1983) - $309,125,409

“Episode I – The Phantom Menace” (1999) - $431,065,444

“Episode II – The Attack of the Clones” (2002) - $310,675,583

“Episode III – Revenge of the Sith” (2005) - $380,262,555

Yes, ESB has made less...but not enough to warrant what you're arguing for.

NOTE:

I googled your numbers for ESB..."51,740,189"

The result was "Top grossing movies for 1980 in the USA"

All the other totals you have (we have) are "total gross", and plenty of other resources point to roughly these same numbers...

..somehow only the total for ESB's 1980 gross got on your list.

...so, what were you saying about how "ESB flopped in the box office"?...and how this means "Star Wars the saga, the mindset, the legacy it became didn't kick into gear until after ESB"?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
NOTE:

I googled your numbers for ESB..."51,740,189"

The result was "Top grossing movies for 1980 in the USA"

All the other totals you have (we have) are "total gross", and plenty of other resources point to roughly these same numbers...

..somehow only the total for ESB's 1980 gross got on your list.

...so, what were you saying about how "ESB flopped in the box office"?...and how this means "Star Wars the saga, the mindset, the legacy it became didn't kick into gear until after ESB"?

firefirefireph My mistake. I stole the numbers from IMDb and for some reason the subtotal was not in the smae places as the others. I grabbed the wrong number. Your number is correct. Therfore my arguemtn has changed.

Here's my main points:

1. I feel people overglorify the OT because they THINK it is an epic, because they THINK it is one of the greatest movies ever made. Maybe society thinks that too. People don't OBJECTIVELY re-analyze the movies from time to time and actually realize that they are flawed (and a lot of these flaws are in the PT too).

2. The PT and OT are not the same trilogy. They were filmed 17-28 years apart. No one should expect them to be the same style or the same movies or judge one according to the other.

Originally posted by vintageSW77
im reading a box office report here and it says SW opened on 43 screens finishing with 1000 plus due to the "phenomena"
ESB opened on 126 and by 1983 ROTJ opened at 1002 cinemas
bearing in mind SW was re released a year on and by the time ROTJ was done there was obv a change in cinema viewing with the advent of the american multiplex
i dont know if the money made from the complete trilogy release which came out during ROTJs release was added to Jedis gross or split 3 ways
this doesnt give all the answers but there must be something in this
im going to dig deep and find out

im pretty certain that in the UK ESB made more money that ROTJ im sure for a while ESB was 8 and ROTJ 17th in our box office all time top 20

I didn't look at global totals or over-time totals. I feel that the movie market and international movie market have changed so much, It wouldn't be a fair comparison.

Let me know what you find.