Thor vs. Apacolypse

Man, I'm late to the party again and it looks like I've been beaten to the punch on most of these replies but I can't resist.

Originally posted by bigbran
Thor isn't even favorite character, but even then, he has about 700 (his own) comics from him to call "Classic", and if he did start to do what you said, then there would be an explanation.

Thor DOES have different incarnations used on the board all the time.
There's a difference between "standard (or classic) Thor", "masterson Thor", and "King Thor." Same character, three wildly different power levels.

The Ikaris feat, is passed off as Classic Apoc, the Loki feat, is passed off as Classic, and yet, they aren't, they are just higher showings.

Classic Apocalypse is USUALLY easy to spot due to the Giant "A" on his belt. I think they stopped using that after he was killed in X-factor.
The difference between "classic" apoc and "current" is that ALL of his showings prior to his death(s) were high level showings. It's canon- not speculation- that apocalypse is now using host bodies since the destruction of his original. that's a pretty solid explanation for the decrease in power if you ask me.

My point was, that if you are going to use some current feats, then don't block out feats from the same timeline.
He is Apocalypse, there was no Apocalypse crisis that I am aware of.

Our point is that all of apocalypse's higher showings date from before his death. All of his low showings date from AFTER this happened.

You ever think of pis?

It isn't PIS when it's consistent. Apocalypse was consistently written as a massively powerful individual that it took entire teams to stop. The scan from X-factor 68 isn't an exception- if you read early Xfactor he was ALWAYS that way.

You think any Apocalypse is more durible than Surfer? Surfer was put on his knees from a whisper, and yet, you think "Classic" Apocalypse can take a full on scream with no damage?

depends on when it happened. Apocalypse has been powered down since his debut, Black Bolt has been powered up. Surfer has received numerous power ups. It's comics. it happens.

Umm... when in one showing he has no effect on him, and in the next, he disintegrates him with a whisper... then obviously one or the other is wrong.
Two completely different showings, an neither really shows anything.
If you take that showing, then what is to stop me from using the HOM showing?
I can't use Black Bolt beating Apoc, but you can use him doing nothing?

I've already been beaten to it, but yeah, HOM was an alternate continuity in addition to occurring about 15 years after Xfactor 68. 616 Apocalypse was dead when this happened, and it isn't valid. Xfactor #68 is definitely in continuity though, and stands as one of the landmark X-books as this was the issue where Nate Summers was sent into the future to become Cable (and ironically, fight apocalypse there also!)

Just like Classic vs. Current Juggernaut, there are clear and explainable reasons WHY Apocalypse isn't as strong as he used to be. I don't like them, and think the plot line is incredibly bad writing, but it's there and it's canon. Classic and Current are clearly at two different power levels.

thank you. Yes, Apocalypse has been jobbed. Just because there is a reason for it, doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge it. Much like the various incarnations of Juggernaut, Drax, Hulk, Xavier as of Decimation, there are clear differences in power and ability. If anything, this illustrates how powerful he is. IF NONE OF HIS HOST BODIES CAN CONTAIN OR APPROACH HIS CLASSIC LEVELS, THEN HE MUST BE ALOT STRONGER THAN HIS HYPE MAKES HIM SEEM.

Which means, his Classic incarnation is not getting the fair credit it deserves. Juggs was depowered for a considerable period of time (and may have been repowered recently), but do you hear people say Classic Juggs would lose to Hulk, Thing, or other bricks? Of course not. The same principle applies to Apocalypse. Things like the Ikaris fight are high showings, but they are very rare for him after X-Factor #68. The point is, Classic Apocalypse would be more than capable of accomplishing those feats. The fact that Current did it makes a freak occurence, given his record of jobbing. With Classic, it would be business as usual.

Thor's showing > "classic" Apocalypse showing nuff said.

Now that, is your opinion.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Now that, is your opinion.

Originally posted by Priest
its true,
Thor tangled with skyfathers, beings like Mesphisto, Thanos, galactus, and celestials....the list goes on.
Thor has done it all, more than Apocalypse would ever be able to over come.

come on now, you're not being honest.

Thanos owned him, and that was WITH the power gem.
Galactus' power levels are all over the place. At his strongest, Thor has no shot.
The Celestials were barely phased by Thor.
Mephisto's power weakens rapidly the longer he's away from his home dimension.

Thor's standard showings are a little lower end. a nonpowered Beta Ray Bill beat him twice. Hercules Stalemates him all the time. Hulk has stalemated him a couple times. Champion, with no gem, casually dismissed him in his first appearance. Kurse is stated to be roughly twice his strength. Black bolt gave him a workout when he was holding back. (i.e. not using the scream at all.) Classic Jugs manhandled him. He usually has to trick the absorbing man....etc

Originally posted by Space M ummy
come on now, you're not being honest.

Thanos owned him, and that was WITH the power gem.
Galactus' power levels are all over the place. At his strongest, Thor has no shot.
The Celestials were barely phased by Thor.
Mephisto's power weakens rapidly the longer he's away from his home dimension.

Thor's standard showings are a little lower end. a nonpowered Beta Ray Bill beat him twice. Hercules Stalemates him all the time. Hulk has stalemated him a couple times. Champion, with no gem, casually dismissed him in his first appearance. Kurse is stated to be roughly twice his strength. Black bolt gave him a workout when he was holding back. (i.e. not using the scream at all.) Classic Jugs manhandled him. He usually has to trick the absorbing man....etc

clapping You earned this. notworthy So, in your opinion, is Thor Herald level? Because some people on here seem to be claiming he is. I'd say it's the magic element that lets him hang with guys like Surfer, who I don't think he could beat in a straight fight......

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Apocalypse was already capable of withstanding a big force blast from the High Evolutionary, while at the same time being blasted out of his space station.

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
X-Factor #68.

That's when Apocalypse's original body was destroyed, and he's been using substitutes ever since then. Because of this, Apocalypse's power fluctuates and most of his bodies can't withstand his energy and abilities. Whichs explains why he's weaker now than he was in the past. Hence, the usage of the term 'Classic Apocalypse'.

Also, what I'm saying is if you look back, you will see people referring to feats from a little while ago, as Classic.
Not exactly classic.

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
HoM is an altered reality, created by Wanda. 😕

It doesn't count.

Plus, I could take the pis route instead...
I mean, it may be canon, but to me, it is pis.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Thor DOES have different incarnations used on the board all the time.
There's a difference between "standard (or classic) Thor", "masterson Thor", and "King Thor." Same character, three wildly different power levels.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Classic Apocalypse is USUALLY easy to spot due to the Giant "A" on his belt. I think they stopped using that after he was killed in X-factor.
The difference between "classic" apoc and "current" is that ALL of his showings prior to his death(s) were high level showings. It's canon- not speculation- that apocalypse is now using host bodies since the destruction of his original. that's a pretty solid explanation for the decrease in power if you ask me.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Our point is that all of apocalypse's higher showings date from before his death. All of his low showings date from AFTER this happened.

How about we use what you had said earlier?

Masterson Thor has put down Thanos... twice (I know it was pis, but just an example). So, I will put that in my arguement, but I will blot out all of his bad feats.
So, we have classic Thor, who can put down Thanos with the IG.

A: "Masterson was speed blitzed by Spider-Man..."
B: "Nope, that wasn't Classic Thor."
A: "But you had just used him putting down Thanos!"
B: "But that was a Classic feat!"
A: "..."

The difference here though, is that Masterson isn't exactly Thor.
Apoc is current, classic, and jeebas Apoc.

What I'm saying, is don't use teh Ikaris fight, if you are going to call it classic Apoc.
Apoc has bad feats all over, but they are still feats.

You use his good feats, but I will use all his career wins... and loses.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
It isn't PIS when it's consistent. Apocalypse was consistently written as a massively powerful individual that it took entire teams to stop. The scan from X-factor 68 isn't an exception- if you read early Xfactor he was ALWAYS that way.

You have to look at BB's other shownings too, not just Apoc.

That would be like me saying, that, Wolverine has taken a Celestial attack. I know the Celestials are powerful, but could it possibly be pis?
Wolverine has been shown to take powerful attacks all the time.
So it would be consistent... right?

Originally posted by Space M ummy
depends on when it happened. Apocalypse has been powered down since his debut, Black Bolt has been powered up. Surfer has received numerous power ups. It's comics. it happens.

Also, Surfer never had a powerup. He was off of Earth. His normal "going through suns" showings.
He gets put on his knees with a whisper.

Apoc laughs a scream off...

Sonds more like pis, than a good showing...

Also... those two feats happened around the same time...
The Surfer feat happened about in '92.
Surfer 60...

Originally posted by Space M ummy
I've already been beaten to it, but yeah, HOM was an alternate continuity in addition to occurring about 15 years after Xfactor 68. 616 Apocalypse was dead when this happened, and it isn't valid. Xfactor #68 is definitely in continuity though, and stands as one of the landmark X-books as this was the issue where Nate Summers was sent into the future to become Cable (and ironically, fight apocalypse there also!)

So, just because it happened, that it is acceptable, is what you're saying?
Just because it is classic, doesn't mean it isn't anymore pis than Spider-Man beating Firelord.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Just like Classic vs. Current Juggernaut, there are clear and explainable reasons WHY Apocalypse isn't as strong as he used to be. I don't like them, and think the plot line is incredibly bad writing, but it's there and it's canon. Classic and Current are clearly at two different power levels.

Also, what the hell is up with Apoc almost taking down Ikaris wth a stab wound? Eternal?

Apocalypse wins if he comes up with those great thousand year schemes. Those always turn out great 😈

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
clapping You earned this. notworthy So, in your opinion, is Thor Herald level? Because some people on here seem to be claiming he is. I'd say it's the magic element that lets him hang with guys like Surfer, who I don't think he could beat in a straight fight......

That's like saying "Do you think Superman is herald level without being exposed to yellow sun radiation?" or "Do you think Silver Surfer would still be herald level if he didn't have the Power Cosmic?"

🤪

Originally posted by bigbran
So... you think he is more durible than Surfer?
Intriging to say the least.

Apocalypse's powerset means all of his attributes were adjustable to an unknown degree. That's strength, speed, stamina, durability, etc. is it possible he can make himself more durable than surfer? sure. The writers never put any solid limits on what he can do, and he does have a substantial amount of celestial tech.

Also, what I'm saying is if you look back, you will see people referring to feats from a little while ago, as Classic.
Not exactly classic.

If the event occurred before Xfactor 68, it's not classic apoc. that's when his original body was destroyed/damaged by cyclops. He didn't appear again till years later during Xcutioners Song- during that his "regeneration" was interrupted and he was severely weakened and left for dead on the moon. Shortly after that it was established (via the cyclops and phoenix series ) that apoc had begun using host bodies.

I know, but I'm just saying... we only have two times that this happened. Is either one accurate? No.

One event occured IN continuity in Xfactor. the other Occurred during house Of M, in an altered reality. the events that occurred during HOM aren't any more canon than events in Age of Apocalypse or any other "alternate reality" situation. by the time HOM occurred, Apocalypse's body AND mind had been destroyed. After HOM it was established that Cable Ressurrected him. Whatever that was that appeared in HOM wasn't the "true" apocalypse, only a "reality warp" construct created by HOM wanda. It wasn't any more real than wanda's "children" were.

I know... 😐
Exept in comics, there is a difference. He actually has comics showing why his power changed (specifically).

so does apocalypse. the explanation is just VERY spread out and kind of vague.

Wait... wasn't it ret-conned that Apoc has been using different bodies his whole career?

no, Apocalypse had his original body up until Xfactor. His original powers didn't seem to extend much farther than immortality and blue lips, then he was changed via celestial technology into the shapeshifting modern version. He spent a couple thousand years "sleeping" but wasn't ever truly defeated until the modern age.

So... why do Apoc fans use the Ikaris feat, and pass it off as Classic?
I'm not against his Classic, but really?

I was under the impression that the Ikaris feat occurred during some sort of flashback, due to the giant "A" on his belt. he hasn't been portrayed that way since the late 80s. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong though.

How about we use what you had said earlier?

Masterson Thor has put down Thanos... twice (I know it was pis, but just an example). So, I will put that in my arguement, but I will blot out all of his bad feats.
So, we have classic Thor, who can put down Thanos with the IG.

A: "Masterson was speed blitzed by Spider-Man..."
B: "Nope, that wasn't Classic Thor."
A: "But you had just used him putting down Thanos!"
B: "But that was a Classic feat!"
A: "..."

The difference here though, is that Masterson isn't exactly Thor.
Apoc is current, classic, and jeebas Apoc.

I'm not sure I understand this example?

You use his good feats, but I will use all his career wins... and loses.

no, I'm not using all his good feats, just pointing out that just about all of his good feats occurred prior to his "death" on the moon. After that, he was hugely depowered and it was established he was using host bodies. It's not that hard to understand- apocalypse is extremely powerful, gets himself killed, begins using host bodies to compensate and gets powered down.
[/B][/QUOTE]

ah, this is running long. I'll bbl

Originally posted by bigbran
So... you think he is more durible than Surfer?

Apocalypse's original body always seemed to be extremely durable to at least say.

The X-Factor never seemed able to hurt him.

And once claimed when fighting them in X-Factor #25 "The madness is in your expectation of victory...as if mere ice or strength or telekinesis could affect me!".

And again, as we know, he took on a scream from Black Bolt (along with other attacks from X-Factor & Inhumans). And big force blast from the High Evolutionary, and he just laughed at both those attacks.

More durable than the Surfer? I'm not sure to say. But highly durable anyway.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
actually, yes. the definition of team wrecker IS "hey! I'm a uber powerful character!"

Hulk is certainly one of the more powerful individuals in 616 (not counting cosmics and the like) and in his heyday, yes it did take entire teams and armies to slow him down. Juggernaut is cyttorak incarnate when he feels like concentrating. Again, Classic was a character that manhandled thor and the Xmen like they were a minor irritation.

Classic Apocalypse had total control of his entire molecular structure. that's not just size change, thats "invent any power I want, when I want, to an undetermined extent." He also has enough knowledge to grant OTHER mutants with whatever powers he sees fit. Just look at his horsemen.

Regular Thor has HUGE problems with hulk and always has. Sans Mjolnir it's usually a stalemate. How many non cosmic characters can you think of that are even capable of putting and KEEPING an angry hulk in a choke hold? It's damn few. MAYBE Juggernaut, Thor at his peak, Immortal Hercules, and the list stops there.

I thought it was King Thor/RKT that Killed the Hulk. We're not debating that version of Thor- he's clearly above apocalypse.

No, grabbing celestial tech would not be "outside help." Apocalypse makes extensive use of it, and it's been implied it was involved into changing his original body into what it is/was now. Xfactor's sentient "ship" was also celestial tech, and originally his. He uses it to create his horsemen, constantly. Apocalypse has some of the most advanced tech on the PLANET, Beyond what Reed, Doom, and Iron man currently have access to.

I'm not an apocalypse fanboy or anything, but I've been reading comics since the mid 80s- long enough to notice current apoc (and sinister also, but that's another story) has been HUGELY depowered since his debut. Properly written he gives Thor a Good workout- Thor has a lot of very good showings but he's been given problems by sheer bricks like Juggernaut, Hercules, Hulk, the Wrecker, and Absorbing Man on a regular basis. Hell, Beta Ray Bill defeated him twice BEFORE he got Stormbreaker.

Apocalypse is at least as strong if he chooses to be, and a HELL of a lot smarter than all five combined. I don't think he'll sweep Thor by any means, but I think giving the man who took over the planet (in AOA) a minor majority is reasonable.

So you consider Hulk as an uber powerful character? Well that explains a lot.

Not counting cosmics and the like, Spider Man is a powerful character. Thats like saying that without NFL and College Football, I'm one of the single most greatest football players of all time.

When has Apoc invented any power he desires?

Most are his Horsemen are empowered by tech. He's not Galactus, he can't just give and remove powers.

You actually consider putting Hulk in a choke hold an impressive feat?

No, it was Thor without the odinforce and Mjolnir.

That really isn't necessary. Know ones cares about Apoc's tech. It's considered outside help to run and obtain it during battle.

Apoc gets bested by the X men. 😐

Originally posted by Space M ummy
come on now, you're not being honest.

Thanos owned him, and that was WITH the power gem.
Galactus' power levels are all over the place. At his strongest, Thor has no shot.
The Celestials were barely phased by Thor.
Mephisto's power weakens rapidly the longer he's away from his home dimension.

Thor's standard showings are a little lower end. a nonpowered Beta Ray Bill beat him twice. Hercules Stalemates him all the time. Hulk has stalemated him a couple times. Champion, with no gem, casually dismissed him in his first appearance. Kurse is stated to be roughly twice his strength. Black bolt gave him a workout when he was holding back. (i.e. not using the scream at all.) Classic Jugs manhandled him. He usually has to trick the absorbing man....etc

Come one now, you're not being honest.

Thanos was on the losing end of that fight, and resorted to tech to win. Also, Thor had no idea how to use the power gem so it provided little help.

Doesn't matter, Thor was still able to best him.

A big crack in your dome, is considered to be barely noticed? How do you think Apoc would have done?

Mephisto was in his realm when he was bested by Thor....Twice.

Thor's standard showings far outshine most herald lv characters. I'm not talking about the Avengers "get owned by Ultron Thor". I'm, talking about the Thor as portrayed in his own comics.

Hercules stalemates Thor in test of strength, not in battles.

Hulk has also been killed by Thor.

Being BFR'd is considered a low showing?

Kurse is actually 4x his strength. However thats nothing to be ashamed of considering Kurse his arguably the single strongest character in the MU.

Black Bolt was owned in like 6 pages, and was never stated to be holding back.

Absorbing man, and Juggernaut could defeat Apoc.

I'm not sure why your bringing up low feats, but hey you do what you do.

Thor 7/10

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
clapping You earned this. notworthy So, in your opinion, is Thor Herald level? Because some people on here seem to be claiming he is. I'd say it's the magic element that lets him hang with guys like Surfer, who I don't think he could beat in a straight fight......

Hop off his sack.

Thor is top tier herald lv.

Some people? More along the lines of all knowledgeable posters.

Thats like saying that it's the power cosmic that allows Surfer to hang with characters like Thor.

Oh and BTW. Thor has bested Surfer in all their battles and was stated on panel to be the more powerful of the two.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Apocalypse's powerset means all of his attributes were adjustable to an unknown degree. That's strength, speed, stamina, durability, etc. is it possible he can make himself more durable than surfer? sure. The writers never put any solid limits on what he can do, and he does have a substantial amount of celestial tech.

If the event occurred before Xfactor 68, it's not classic apoc. that's when his original body was destroyed/damaged by cyclops. He didn't appear again till years later during Xcutioners Song- during that his "regeneration" was interrupted and he was severely weakened and left for dead on the moon. Shortly after that it was established (via the cyclops and phoenix series ) that apoc had begun using host bodies.

One event occured IN continuity in Xfactor. the other Occurred during house Of M, in an altered reality. the events that occurred during HOM aren't any more canon than events in Age of Apocalypse or any other "alternate reality" situation. by the time HOM occurred, Apocalypse's body AND mind had been destroyed. After HOM it was established that Cable Ressurrected him. Whatever that was that appeared in HOM wasn't the "true" apocalypse, only a "reality warp" construct created by HOM wanda. It wasn't any more real than wanda's "children" were.

so does apocalypse. the explanation is just VERY spread out and kind of vague.

no, Apocalypse had his original body up until Xfactor. His original powers didn't seem to extend much farther than immortality and blue lips, then he was changed via celestial technology into the shapeshifting modern version. He spent a couple thousand years "sleeping" but wasn't ever truly defeated until the modern age.

I was under the impression that the Ikaris feat occurred during some sort of flashback, due to the giant "A" on his belt. he hasn't been portrayed that way since the late 80s. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong though.

I'm not sure I understand this example?

no, I'm not using all his good feats, just pointing out that just about all of his good feats occurred prior to his "death" on the moon. After that, he was hugely depowered and it was established he was using host bodies. It's not that hard to understand- apocalypse is extremely powerful, gets himself killed, begins using host bodies to compensate and gets powered down.

ah, this is running long. I'll bbl [/B][/QUOTE]

When did this become the case? As far as my knowledge Apoc claims to have control of his body on the molecular level, allowing him to shape shift, to increase density and allow his body to mimic metals and armors, to teleport, and to be virtually immune to the effects of age, increase his strength, grow to giant sizes, and gain the power of flight, sometimes through turning his arms into wings or jets.

He doesn't have an unlimited power source which he can use to augment his abilities past that of a herald.

High Herald lv characters and their power sources > Apoc's control over his body.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
So you consider Hulk as an uber powerful character? Well that explains a lot.

Not counting cosmics and the like, Spider Man is a powerful character. Thats like saying that without NFL and College Football, I'm one of the single most greatest football players of all time.

When has Apoc invented any power he desires?

Most are his Horsemen are empowered by tech. He's not Galactus, he can't just give and remove powers.

You actually consider putting Hulk in a choke hold an impressive feat?

No, it was Thor without the odinforce and Mjolnir.

That really isn't necessary. Know ones cares about Apoc's tech. It's considered outside help to run and obtain it during battle.

Apoc gets bested by the X men. 😐

What is this, know-nothing day? Hulk has been stated by marvel to be the strongest being on Earth. Period.

Cosmics (heralds, abstracts, etc) are another class entirely. They're all freaking immortal forces of nature. I shouldn't have to point that out.

There are scads of individuals on marvel earth that are stronger/faster/etc than spiderman. Hulk is "the strongest there is."
don't get cute. If restraining an angry hulk isn't impressive, feel free to name some individuals on marvel earth who are demonstrably stronger.

As for his powers- a direct quote from Xfactor 68 (From Cyclops in regards to Apocalypse) "..in every previous encounter, when he was more our size, apocalypse was the consummate shape changer, manifesting any martial (i.e. combat) ability necessary to tip the balance in his favor.."

Marvel.com also lists his powerset as :

Apocalypse's full extent of powers remain to be revealed, especially to the extent of which powers have since been augmented by alien technology. Apocalypse claims to have control of his body on the molecular level-- allowing him to shape change and elongate with virtually unlimited range, to increase density and allow his body to mimic metals and armors, to teleport, and to be virtually immune to the effects of age. Apocalypse can also increase his strength to levels surpassing that of the Hulk, grow to giant sizes, and gain the power of flight, sometimes through turning his arms into wings or jets. Apocalypse can also transform himself into a variety of human disguises.

He has exhibited energy absorbing and projecting abilities in the past. Apocalypse has been termed an "External," due to his mutant ability of immortality. Briefly, Apocalypse has shown potential to be a powerful psionic.

again, total control of his body on a molecular level. there's little he CAN'T do with it.

As for the Xmen "owning" him- never happened. Xfactor (the original- Cyke, Jean, Beast, Iceman, etc) couldn't even find a way to scratch him. The combined attacks of the X-factor and Inhumans were totally innefective. Did you even read the thread?

The Xmen never encountered the original apocalypse. (he was almost exclusively an X factor villain, IIRC) Every encounter after his "death" has been in a host body with a fraction of the power he originally had.

Apocalypse hands out powers like free candy. WTF are you talking about? He's given powers to mutants, humans, depowered mutants, and inhumans.

He turned Ozymandias (human) into immortal, living stone without the use of tech. He either gave or radically altered the powers of Caliban, Angel, Moses Magnum, Mr. Sinister, Hulk, Polaris, Sunfire, Chamber...the list is pretty damn long. Some of these were accomplished with tech, but since apocalypse's body ITSELF is composed of and a result of a crapload of celestial tech, it's a moot point.

Would Strange using his standard magical items (orb, wand, cloak, etc) be "outside help?" how about iron man using his armors? Why would apocalypse using tech he has literally laying all over the damn place be "outside help?" considering his body is techno-organic, he could probably make whatever he needs out of his own substance...

Originally posted by Space M ummy
What is this, know-nothing day? Hulk has been stated by marvel to be the strongest being on Earth. Period.

Cosmics (heralds, abstracts, etc) are another class entirely. They're all freaking immortal forces of nature. I shouldn't have to point that out.

There are scads of individuals on marvel earth that are stronger/faster/etc than spiderman. Hulk is "the strongest there is."
don't get cute. If restraining an angry hulk isn't impressive, feel free to name some individuals on marvel earth who are demonstrably stronger.

As for his powers- a direct quote from Xfactor 68 (From Cyclops in regards to Apocalypse) "..in every previous encounter, when he was more our size, apocalypse was the consummate shape changer, manifesting any martial (i.e. combat) ability necessary to tip the balance in his favor.."

Marvel.com also lists his powerset as :

again, total control of his body on a molecular level. there's little he CAN'T do with it.

As for the Xmen "owning" him- never happened. Xfactor (the original- Cyke, Jean, Beast, Iceman, etc) couldn't even find a way to scratch him. The combined attacks of the X-factor and Inhumans were totally innefective. Did you even read the thread?

The Xmen never encountered the original apocalypse. (he was almost exclusively an X factor villain, IIRC) Every encounter after his "death" has been in a host body with a fraction of the power he originally had.

Apocalypse hands out powers like free candy. WTF are you talking about? He's given powers to mutants, humans, depowered mutants, and inhumans.

He turned Ozymandias (human) into immortal, living stone without the use of tech. He either gave or radically altered the powers of Caliban, Angel, Moses Magnum, Mr. Sinister, Hulk, Polaris, Sunfire, Chamber...the list is pretty damn long. Some of these were accomplished with tech, but since apocalypse's body ITSELF is composed of and a result of a crapload of celestial tech, it's a moot point.

Would Strange using his standard magical items (orb, wand, cloak, etc) be "outside help?" how about iron man using his armors? Why would apocalypse using tech he has literally laying all over the damn place be "outside help?" considering his body is techno-organic, he could probably make whatever he needs out of his own substance...

He has granted powers to others, but usually when he augments an individual or turns them into a horseman, he does so via Celestial tech. But he is capable of doing it on his own, as demonstrated with Ozymandias and others. Apocalypse has shown on several occasions to be able to make items, technology, and indeed, metals and other things from his body. Check the respect thread.

Hulk as physically the strongest on earth? Well, Juggernaut is possibly higher at classic levels, but I'll co-sign that for now.

Btw, Chamber was altered with a dose of his blood, no tech, nothing else. However, Chamber isn't a great example, as although the blood healed him and seems to have restored his powers, it may partially be because Chamber himself is Apocalypse's great great great great grandson.

Moses Magnum's powers got screwed up with a mere thought from Apocalypse. Apoc granted him the power in the first place, via tech, but Magnum's death was caused by Apoc willing Magnum's power to be outside his control. Moses lost control of his powers and was killed by his own abilities.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Hulk as physically the strongest on earth? Well, Juggernaut is possibly higher at classic levels, but I'll co-sign that for now.

Classic jugs is one of the few on earth that were at hulk's levels. neither one really has any definitive "limit" to how strong they can get, though Juggernaut has a little bit of an edge due to the whole unlimited endurance thing. there's a huge, tiresome thread on juggernaut vs. hulk that I'd rather not repeat...

Thor at his peak (lifting the midgard serpent, etc) possibly BRB, and immortal hercules are also around the same class. none of those four has shown to be demonstrably stronger than the other though.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Hop off his sack.

Thor is top tier herald lv.

Some people? More along the lines of all knowledgeable posters.

Thats like saying that it's the power cosmic that allows Surfer to hang with characters like Thor.

Oh and BTW. Thor has bested Surfer in all their battles and was stated on panel to be the more powerful of the two.

Thor has a 3-0 record with SS in direct combat, one of the fights SS was amped by all of Loki's power, and Thor defeated him without even trying the entire fight.

Another time, SS was blood lusted, stated on panel he wasn't holding back, and was bested by Thor again.

etc. etc.