Originally posted by Darth Martin
Kidd led the Nets to two Finals and lo0st to the SUPERIOR team. Nash has yet to lead the Suns to the Finals.
He lead to them to the Finals in the East, not the same as leading a team to the finals in the West.
Originally posted by Darth Martin
Another comparison:Jason Kidd
Richard Jefferson
Kenyon Martinvs
Steve Nash
Shawn Marion
Amare Stoudamire
Amare was hurt all year last year and Nash still lead them to a 60+ wins and deep into the Western Conference Finals. How are the Nets doing this year without a healthy Jefferson?
Originally posted by wuTa
Amare was hurt all year last year and Nash still lead them to a 60+ wins and deep into the Western Conference Finals. How are the Nets doing this year without a healthy Jefferson?
That's still not a fair comparison. Losing Jefferson is much bigger blow to the Nets than losing Amare for the Suns. Basically everyone on the Suns team can shoot well, run well, and orchestrate the team chemistry very well. So even with Amare out, the Suns play their fast placed run and gun game successfully. The Nets are the opposite. They have probably the weakest and slowest frontline in the history of the NBA (seriously). So weak that we need a guy like Mikki Moore to average 18 points and 7 boards in order to survive. That means we can't run as well as we want, we always get crushed on the boards, and our interior defense sucks. Not to mention the Suns' bench beats ours by a mile. So it's sorta unfair to compare the teams' standings and use that to prove Nash is better, because we don't know what would result if Kidd and nash switched places.
The Nets' struggle is anything but Kidd's fault. This is his best year as a Net by far, and he is almost averaging a triple-double. The only field I would rank Nash better in is shooting %, even though Kidd's shooting has improved dramatically from last year. And when it all comes down, defense goes to Kidd. Considering the Suns' success, Nash would be a better MVP, but to me, Kidd is an overall better player.
Originally posted by RecSpecs110
That's still not a fair comparison. Losing Jefferson is much bigger blow to the Nets than losing Amare for the Suns. Basically everyone on the Suns team can shoot well, run well, and orchestrate the team chemistry very well. So even with Amare out, the Suns play their fast placed run and gun game successfully. The Nets are the opposite. They have probably the weakest and slowest frontline in the history of the NBA (seriously). So weak that we need a guy like Mikki Moore to average 18 points and 7 boards in order to survive. That means we can't run as well as we want, we always get crushed on the boards, and our interior defense sucks. Not to mention the Suns' bench beats ours by a mile. So it's sorta unfair to compare the teams' standings and use that to prove Nash is better, because we don't know what would result if Kidd and nash switched places.The Nets' struggle is anything but Kidd's fault. This is his best year as a Net by far, and he is almost averaging a triple-double. The only field I would rank Nash better in is shooting %, even though Kidd's shooting has improved dramatically from last year. And when it all comes down, defense goes to Kidd. Considering the Suns' success, Nash would be a better MVP, but to me, Kidd is an overall better player.
punkpunk
Originally posted by RecSpecs110
That's still not a fair comparison. Losing Jefferson is much bigger blow to the Nets than losing Amare for the Suns. Basically everyone on the Suns team can shoot well, run well, and orchestrate the team chemistry very well. So even with Amare out, the Suns play their fast placed run and gun game successfully. The Nets are the opposite. They have probably the weakest and slowest frontline in the history of the NBA (seriously). So weak that we need a guy like Mikki Moore to average 18 points and 7 boards in order to survive. That means we can't run as well as we want, we always get crushed on the boards, and our interior defense sucks. Not to mention the Suns' bench beats ours by a mile. So it's sorta unfair to compare the teams' standings and use that to prove Nash is better, because we don't know what would result if Kidd and nash switched places.
Well alot of this is unfair because somehow Nowitzki, Shaq, and others have made there way in the conversation when this is about Nash vs. Kidd. I'll admit that the Nets have a weaker bench than the Suns, but you can't hold that against Nash considering how the whole team has struggles when Nash has been hurt. If people are going to use how Kidd made it to the Finals (another way of saying how well he did in the season/standings) than its only fair that I can use the argument on how well Nash leads his team in the standings, maybe I just picked the wrong year, even last year, and I believe the year before last Nash lead his team farther than Kidds team in the playoffs, and to a better seed, and Nash pretty much had two different those years.
QUOTE=8442125]Originally posted by RecSpecs110
The Nets' struggle is anything but Kidd's fault. This is his best year as a Net by far, and he is almost averaging a triple-double. The only field I would rank Nash better in is shooting %, even though Kidd's shooting has improved dramatically from last year. And when it all comes down, defense goes to Kidd. Considering the Suns' success, Nash would be a better MVP, but to me, Kidd is an overall better player. [/QUOTE]
I never said the Nets struggling is Kidd's fault. If you think Kidd is a better player than Nash for the reasons mentioned thats fine, I'm still going to go with Nash for all the reasons I mentioned, Nash is a better shooter, he's just as good, if not better as Kidd at finding his teammates, better FT shooter, and he has hit bigger clutch shots than Kidd. One answer isn't going to be better than the other, these are two of the best PGs in the league today.
Originally posted by wuTa
Well alot of this is unfair because somehow Nowitzki, Shaq, and others have made there way in the conversation when this is about Nash vs. Kidd. I'll admit that the Nets have a weaker bench than the Suns, but you can't hold that against Nash considering how the whole team has struggles when Nash has been hurt. If people are going to use how Kidd made it to the Finals (another way of saying how well he did in the season/standings) than its only fair that I can use the argument on how well Nash leads his team in the standings, maybe I just picked the wrong year, even last year, and I believe the year before last Nash lead his team farther than Kidds team in the playoffs, and to a better seed, and Nash pretty much had two different those years.I never said the Nets struggling is Kidd's fault. If you think Kidd is a better player than Nash for the reasons mentioned thats fine, I'm still going to go with Nash for all the reasons I mentioned, Nash is a better shooter, he's just as good, if not better as Kidd at finding his teammates, better FT shooter, and he has hit bigger clutch shots than Kidd. One answer isn't going to be better than the other, these are two of the best PGs in the league today.
Alright, but I wasn't one of those people who included Shaq, Nowitzki, and the Finals, was I? And I've seen the Suns struggle when Nash is out. I know they're horrible without him, it's like a car without an engine, I know that. I saw their 3 or 4 game losing streak when he was out with the shoulder injury. But, have you seen the Nets without Kidd? They played like a JV team against the Varsity team. They made the Toronto Raptors look like the Mavericks. And also they lost big time to the Spurs at home. Marcus Williams has grown so much as a rookie, but a lot of the credit goes to Kidd. Kidd has been his mentor everywhere: in timeouts, in game situations, off the court, etc. In the 2 games Kidd was out, oh boy, it was ugly.
I agree Nash is a more clutch shooter, but ultimately, that leads down to Nash being an overall better shooter. Kidd has had numerous last second shots, but they haven't gone down. Why? Simply, he's not a great shooter. So shooting % is in Nash's favor.
I'm alright with people saying Nash is better, because he is Steve Nash after all. But I just don't like it when people use the Nets' struggles to downgrade Kidd, that's all.
Look at it this way, the Suns offense is built around Nash. The way they run it is all for Nash. As Recs said he is the engine but that is because their style of play. If Nash wasn't on the Suns and they played a regular offense then they would be successful. But even when he is out they still try that run n gun offense which Barbosa can't run by himself. He could probably run a regular offense with the amount of talent that is on that team.
Originally posted by RecSpecs110
Alright, but I wasn't one of those people who included Shaq, Nowitzki, and the Finals, was I? And I've seen the Suns struggle when Nash is out. I know they're horrible without him, it's like a car without an engine, I know that. I saw their 3 or 4 game losing streak when he was out with the shoulder injury. But, have you seen the Nets without Kidd? They played like a JV team against the Varsity team. They made the Toronto Raptors look like the Mavericks. And also they lost big time to the Spurs at home. Marcus Williams has grown so much as a rookie, but a lot of the credit goes to Kidd. Kidd has been his mentor everywhere: in timeouts, in game situations, off the court, etc. In the 2 games Kidd was out, oh boy, it was ugly.
No, you weren't one of the people who included Shaq, Dirk, ect. which is why I try to use, and believe I did use quotes to direct my response towards the people that did use those examples.
Originally posted by RecSpecs110
I agree Nash is a more clutch shooter, but ultimately, that leads down to
Nash being an overall better shooter. Kidd has had numerous last second shots, but they haven't gone down. Why? Simply, he's not a great shooter. So shooting % is in Nash's favor.I'm alright with people saying Nash is better, because he is Steve Nash after all. But I just don't like it when people use the Nets' struggles to downgrade Kidd, that's all.
I already admitted I used the wrong year to compare the two, but I don't like it when people say Nash is an undeserving MVP, All MVPs candidates are deserving, thats why there candidates, whether people think he should have won is another thing, I get that thats going to be based on opinion.
Originally posted by wuTaAmare was hurt all year last year and Nash still lead them to a 60+ wins and deep into the Western Conference Finals.
It was only 54 wins and they only made it to the Conference Finals because the playoff brackets were messed up.
" Look at it this way, the Suns offense is built around Nash. The way they run it is all for Nash. As Recs said he is the engine but that is because their style of play. If Nash wasn't on the Suns and they played a regular offense then they would be successful. But even when he is out they still try that run n gun offense which Barbosa can't run by himself. He could probably run a regular offense with the amount of talent that is on that team."
On top of that, they blamed all of the recent losses on the fact that Nash was out. Well, you have to remember that the Suns only use a 7 man rotation for the most part. So minus Nash and Diaw, and you only have 5 guys who are used to actually getting legit playing time. Of course they will lose. That is a flaw on D'Antoni's part, not a sign that Nash deserves MVP.