Dr. Doom and Magneto versus Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister

Started by OneDumbG06 pages

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I"m not buying it. Most any Top tier heroe or villian has been shown owning uber guys and teams before. I believe that doom without prep cannot defeat either of these guys. that is my opinion. I just don't see it. One would have to be insanely powerful to actually be able to seriously hurt apoc. Like on the lvl of nate. that is why sinister made him so powerful becuz he needed to be.
You focus too much on prep. He doesn't do 'Dark Knight Returns' style preparation where he has to prepare a battlefield, have a PIS device, etc. He's pretty much prepared for any situation and can cobble stuff up on the fly when needed. A short list as an example:

1) Energy - As you know, Doom was transported against his will and by surprise in 'Secret Wars.' After Galactus and he were blasted by Beyonder's power, he eventually regains his composure and uses a point singularity device in his boot to restore his power completely. So expect him to have something like that with him at all times.

2) Magicks - Doom's magicks are not to be underestimated. As bigbran stated, he pretty much stole spells and incantations during the contest for the Sorcerer Supreme. He was also tirelessly taught by Dr. Strange for days in their preparation for battle against Mephisto. Hence, why you should now understand how he could break into Strange's house and restrain him in 'Infinity Gauntlet.'

3) Equipment - He almost ALWAYS carries a power absorption module. Hell, his Doombots carry these even! A Doombot absorbed the Power Cosmic from Surfer! He also has been seen with one built into his armor. Most stories, those external power modules are mentioned with reference to taking power for future use and study. It would be easy to infer that his armor's built-in absorption unit is for diverting power for his personal use.

4) Defensive Capabilities - His actual armor has taken point blank shots from Thing without the slightest indication of damage. Check the Prelude to Civil War FF issues. His armor's forcefields have protected him from Thanos w/IG, preretcon Beyonder himself, among other things. His armor and his forcefields are not to be scoffed at.

5) Intellect - His genius is pretty much second only to Reed. He stole Galactus' power with only a few hours preparation, using technology he had never even seen before in 'Secret Wars.'

6) Tenacity - He has incredible will, perhaps second only to Cap. After being blown apart by Beyonder, and then while being molecularly dissected, he actually manages to move his arm to activate a module in his breastplate to steal Beyonder's power. He has also resisted Purple Man's mind control powers with no assistance.

That short list, you can pretty much count on him having that at all times. If it doesn't convince you, then you need to read up on more Doom. I'll try to come up with a list of recommended stories.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
So...

Doom TRIES to harm a Strange that doesn't even want to fight, absolutley fails, and his own spell is easily cast back at him?

Meh.

There is one way you can escape the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak. If you cast them incorrectly and the person who casts them happens to be a master magician, like Dr. Strange. This is from the mouth of Strange himself. Anyway, you need to read the 'Triumph and Torment' story to understand the context of what happened and Doom's magic skills.

Originally posted by id369
Apo. Wanabe world ruler for I don’t know how long (with Celestails aid).

Apoc doesn’t want to rule the world, just make it a stronger place, he wants the best for humanity, just through not too positive means.

Dialogue during Apoc's fight with the High E. HE:"Mine will be a gentle gift....of advancement for all" Apoc: "Except for those you deem unfit to advance. I give no gifts. By war, by disaster, I FORCE humanity to change...to grow...to TAKE what it needs."

Originally posted by id369
Magneto, at least he killed Apo in his AoA.

Alternative realities doesn't count. And Apoc was weaker there as well.

Originally posted by id369
Sinister - (hell X-Man beat him to death).

PIS 🙄

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
4) Defensive Capabilities - His actual armor has taken point blank shots from Thing without the slightest indication of damage. Check the Prelude to Civil War FF issues. His armor's forcefields have protected him from Thanos w/IG, preretcon Beyonder himself, among other things. His armor and his forcefields are not to be scoffed at.
Actually, he didn't have his forcefield up when he got blasted by Thanos. I don't think Beyonder either.

Also, a reason why Apoc won't break his shields.
He gets put about all the way across the planet, and his shields completely block all damage (and are perfectly fine).

Untouchable.

Originally posted by bigbran
Actually, he didn't have his forcefield up when he got blasted by Thanos. I don't think Beyonder either.

Also, a reason why Apoc won't break his shields.
He gets put about all the way across the planet, and his shields completely block all damage (and are perfectly fine).

Untouchable.

I don't believe Doom is such a fool to go for the Infinity Gauntlet without having his shields up. And he definitely had his shields up when he tried to race to the Beyonder while following Galactus. I remember the art distinctly. His form was encased in a bubble, a la forcefield. And in my opinion, Apocalpse would give his forcefields a workout. I don't agree with you that he would be nigh untouchable, just far more capably defensive at all times without prep than nvr believes.

EDIT: Captain Britain scan is pretty nice. You should make a Doom respect thread.

Actually, I read that page. It specifically says that only the high tech equipment of his armor allowed him to survive being killed by his grabbing the IG.

Apocalypse could drain off the field, give himself the ability to pass through energy barriers, just hammer it with attacks, TK crush it, etc.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't believe Doom is such a fool to go for the Infinity Gauntlet without having his shields up. And he definitely had his shields up when he tried to race to the Beyonder while following Galactus. I remember the art distinctly. His form was encased in a bubble, a la forcefield. And in my opinion, Apocalpse would give his forcefields a workout. I don't agree with you that he would be nigh untouchable, just far more capably defensive at all times without prep than nvr believes.

EDIT: Captain Britain scan is pretty nice. You should make a Doom respect thread.

Well... he did think that Thanos was KOed when he went for it.

He was also guided by his ambition at that point too.

Oh, I thought you were talking about when he faced Beyonder.

He probably would be untouchable, since, he could have his shield up, put it down, and attack.

There already is a Doom respect thread...
Thanks though.

Also, Trickster, his armour did allow him to survive, but he always has his amour on... so... what do you think?

Show me Apocalypse draining a field of Doom's capacity.

Show me Apoc pasing through something.

Yes, Apoc can hammer it with attacks, but what good is that going to do?
Even if he breaks through, he is meeting a blast right in the face.

TK crush it... ya... right.

Also, Doom learned to use the Crimson Bands, just by watching Strange.

That was before he spent time with Strange.

So, now...
Ya, he used the Bands when he was a self-admitted n00b in magic. After that time with Strange, and over the years, Apoc won't break out of the bands.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Actually, I read that page. It specifically says that only the high tech equipment of his armor allowed him to survive being killed by his grabbing the IG.

Apocalypse could drain off the field, give himself the ability to pass through energy barriers, just hammer it with attacks, TK crush it, etc.

Considering that I've never seen Doom's forcefield siphoned, I am a bit skeptical that such a thing would happen. Perhaps if you could point me to or show me a scan of Apocalypse draining a forcefield? I might have an easier time with your theory. I also don't remember an intangible foe ever penetrating Doom's barrier. Considering he was able to survive the Beyonder's attack (where he had no preparation), I don't see Apocalypse battering it or tk crushing it either. It's pretty darn powerful. Perhaps you could point me to or show me a scan of Apocalpyse crushing a comparable field with ease?

Sue Storm good enough? He broke out of one of her fields during Onslaught.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Sue Storm good enough? He broke out of one of her fields during Onslaught.
dur

Apocalypse gets beaten by the xmen 😐

N'uff said

Originally posted by Grimm22
Apocalypse gets beaten by the xmen 😐

N'uff said

dur

Originally posted by Grimm22
Apocalypse gets beaten by the xmen 😐

N'uff said

1eye

Originally posted by Grimm22
Apocalypse gets beaten by the xmen 😐

N'uff said

doom gets beaten by Fantastic 4. Point?

Originally posted by Grimm22
Apocalypse gets beaten by the xmen 😐

N'uff said

Isn't that what Magneto does?

dur

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Sue Storm good enough? He broke out of one of her fields during Onslaught.
I think it's important for you to carefully read your scan again. Nowhere in that scan is there a shattering of Sue's shields. There is no backlash apparent, there is no illustration of the shields fading. You should understand why your impression of the events is contradictory. If Apocalypse did shatter her shields... then why didn't he just continue on and kill Franklin? Or for that matter, why didn't Apocalpyse kill her with his handblast? Which, by the way, was once again stopped by another of Sue's forcefields.

The correct interpretation of what happened is that Sue put up a forcefield between Apoc and Franklin. He could not penetrate it and was wondering what was going on. He turns and realizes it's Sue and attacks her, to which Sue defends herself... successfully I might add. It's your own scan. I just happen to own that comic and read it many years ago. Another interpretation is, she restrains his right arm and Apocalypse's advance is halted. He turns when Sue screams and attacks her with his free left arm.

Interestingly enough, you should also post the scan where during the initial meeting between Sue, Cable and Apoc, she restrains them with her forcefields and comments that she doubts either could break them. Apocalypse acknowledges this and does not contest that assertation.

So you tell me which makes more sense... Apoc broke the shields... but didn't go after Franklin... instead going after Sue... and that he broke her shields again, but Sue wasn't hurt? Cmon. You're smarter than that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I think it's important for you to carefully read your scan again. Nowhere in that scan is there a shattering of Sue's shields. There is no backlash apparent, there is no illustration of the shields fading. You should understand why your impression of the events is contradictory. If Apocalypse did shatter her shields... then why didn't he just continue on and kill Franklin? Or for that matter, why didn't Apocalpyse kill her with his handblast? Which, by the way, was once again stopped by another of Sue's forcefields.

The correct interpretation of what happened is that Sue put up a forcefield between Apoc and Franklin. He could not penetrate it and was wondering what was going on. He turns and realizes it's Sue and attacks her, to which Sue defends herself... successfully I might add. It's your own scan. I just happen to own that comic and read it many years ago. Another interpretation is, she restrains his right arm and Apocalypse's advance is halted. He turns when Sue screams and attacks her with his free left arm.

Interestingly enough, you should also post the scan where during the initial meeting between Sue, Cable and Apoc, she restrains them with her forcefields and comments that she doubts either could break them. Apocalypse acknowledges this and does not contest that assertation.

So you tell me which makes more sense... Apoc broke the shields... but didn't go after Franklin... instead going after Sue... and that he broke her shields again, but Sue wasn't hurt? Cmon. You're smarter than that.

Ok, hadn't seen that one in awhile. My bad. 😮 Alright, but that doesn't mean he can't break Doom's shield. Celestial technology could give him the edge.

Team 1

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ok, hadn't seen that one in awhile. My bad. 😮 Alright, but that doesn't mean he can't break Doom's shield. Celestial technology could give him the edge.
You're right Trickster. It doesn't mean he couldn't break through Doom's shield. I am certainly not of the opinion that Doom's forcefield's are impenetrable. I just don't think their very easily overcome. Least not by tk crushing and whatnot. But you've intrigued me. Could you describe some of his personal Celestial tech? I briefly ran through some of the Apoc respect thread and mainly looked at his one-on-one bouts with heroes and villains. I liked his bout with High Evolutionary. That really featured his control over his molecules well. I may have missed scans about his Celestial tech. Wanna enlighten me?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I think it's important for you to carefully read your scan again. Nowhere in that scan is there a shattering of Sue's shields. There is no backlash apparent, there is no illustration of the shields fading. You should understand why your impression of the events is contradictory.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers7.png

1. In the second panel you can see that she raises her shields.

2. In the third panel she has a surprised look on her face, and as you can see, her shields are gone when Apoc fires his energy beam.

And where does all those bubbles come from? Someone claimed that all beam attacks produce a little bubble around the shooter's hand.

But then, how come there are no bubbles here when Apoc uses his energy beams?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/Cable20035-16.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/Cable20035-17.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If Apocalypse did shatter her shields... then why didn't he just continue on and kill Franklin? Or for that matter, why didn't Apocalpyse kill her with his handblast?

Because Cable right afterwards surprised attacked Apoc.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Interestingly enough, you should also post the scan where during the initial meeting between Sue, Cable and Apoc, she restrains them with her forcefields and comments that she doubts either could break them. Apocalypse acknowledges this and does not contest that assertation.

I have the comic right here in front of me, and nothing says that she restrained both of them.

Cable says that nothing is going to stop him from attacking Apoc. Cable then suddenly realizes that he can move, and Apoc says that something has stopped him. Sue appears in front of them and says it's called an invisible shield and she doubts either of them could crack it. Also Apoc doesn't acknowledges anywhere that he can't break her shields.

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers7.png

1. In the second panel you can see that she raises her shields.

2. In the third panel she has a surprised look on her face, and as you can see, her shields are gone when Apoc fires his energy beam.

And where does all those bubbles come from? Someone claimed that all beam attacks produce a little bubble around the shooter's hand.

But then, how come there are no bubbles here when Apoc uses his energy beams?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/Cable20035-16.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/Cable20035-17.jpg

Thank you for putting the scans up. We are both wrong to a certain extent. Please pay attention to the shape of Sue's forcefields as rendered by this particular artist. They are bubbles... correct? We agree that the bubbles in the third panel are from Sue's forcefields, not from Apocalypse's energy blast. If I understand you correctly, you want me to interpret that as Apocalypse breaking some kind of field with his energy blast and Sue was surprised. I initially interpreted it as Sue blocking his energy blast successfully and is pissed off. While her reaction is up to interpretation (honestly, where the hell do you see shock? she looks pissed to me), the former result of what happened is not.

We are both wrong. Sue completely dodges Apocalypse's blast. You can see the trail go past Sue's waist. So Apocalypse did not shatter her shield and Sue did not deflect his energy attack. Another interpretation is that Sue's forcefield bubbles are forcing Apocalypse's aim to be off. This interpretation may be more correct than anything since we see bubbles both in front and behind his extended arm. They're probably surrounding his arm to an extent. Once again, we are both wrong. The energy blast goes past her, so he couldn't have broken it and she couldn't have deflected it.

What still ended up happening was that Sue restrained Cable and restrained Apocalypse both from advancing towards their intended targets respectively. If Apocalypse could break the shields, why didn't he just kill Franklin? What's with the shock and dismay when he learns Sue is there? The answer is obvious. Apocalypse could not hurt Franklin with Sue's forcefields up protecting/restraining Apocalypse. Apocalypse then turns to attack her in the hope her concentration may be disrupted by having to throw up new shields. There is no other reason for him to turn and attack Sue. Cable did not enter the picture until after he turned to attack Sue. So your intuition is still contradictory. "If he did or could break the shields, why didn't he just kill Franklin?" Because he couldn't. "Why is he even arguing and justifying what he is trying to do when he attacks Sue?" Because convincing her could help undo the obstacle he couldn't break physically.

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
I have the comic right here in front of me, and nothing says that she restrained both of them.

Cable says that nothing is going to stop him from attacking Apoc. Cable then suddenly realizes that he can move, and Apoc says that something has stopped him. Sue appears in front of them and says it's called an invisible shield and she doubts either of them could crack it. Also Apoc doesn't acknowledges anywhere that he can't break her shields.

What does Apocalypse say right after Sue makes her claim? Post the pages since you have it in front of you. Go ahead. I'll respond afterwards.