Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
Prove that Carnage is faster. Last time I checked, the MAXIMUM was that they were parallel."Originally, he was stronger then both Spider-Man and Venom combined. Carnage also possesses levels of superhuman agility and reaction time comparable to those of Spider-Man."
Carnage is stronger, and POSSIBLY the same speed as Spiderman.
Well have you "checked" amazing spider-man 362?
cause carnage proves it right there for me.. He completely curbs spidey and tosses him aside like trash... kinda proves it for me really.
Originally posted by Jyppe
Read Carnage unleashed, read Max. Carnage, read Venom vs Carnage. Venom didn't whoop him on those occasions.. They were evenly matched or Carnage was handling it better.The only 2 occasions I can remember of Venom humiliating Carnage are in "Venom: the trial" & when Venom absorbed his symbiote.
Yeah you're right I was a bit overzealous in saying every time... But Venom's beaten him back on every occasion/event none the less...
Carnage unleashed is more attributed to plot devices than a straight fight between the two.
Maximum carnage: carnage and venom were stalemating throughout the whole series. 😕
the only time carnage "beat" venom there, was after venom put himself through an enferno and walked through shreiks sonic blast. When they both fought on a weakened but level playing field venom was crushing carnage to the point spidey begged him to stop.
And venom vs. carnage.. venom DID whoop carnage there. 😐..granted it was after carnage got the upper hand in the first half of their fight...
Carnage defenitley does not "handle" venom...
Originally posted by Jyppe
You do realize he isn't necessarily capable of benchpressing 10 tons or more. You do know you can exert more force by ramming in to or tackling something, right? Btw, got links on the elephant facts?Got any other strenght feats? And, someone actually calculated the strenght required to twist the dumbell like Creed did in the morlock massacre arc. It was roughly around 3 tons. - & That was pre upgrade Sabes. So he's *at least* a 3 tonner.
Yes I do know that doesn't NECESSARILY dictate that he can press 10 tons.. but I still think it's a pretty good indictation of his relative strength level.
The barrier field expanded with Sabretooth's attempt to penetrate it, so that robbed sabretooth of any momentum or boost from his initial impact... the rest of the way he had to use pure strength and pushing power to muscle through it...
So unless one's about to argue that Sabretooth's power in his legs and arms is disproportionate when his pushing through something to when he's pressing something, I still think it stands as a RELATIVE but effective example of Sabretooth's strength range.
Yeah there's a few other strength feats.. most of them I posted in the sabes/spidey thread.
But not much of it leaves room at conclusive evidence...
and no I don't have links to the elephant stats.. i read them in a magazine.. but I'll look around and see if I can find some for you.
Originally posted by Scoobless
He couldn't get out from under, what looks like, a non-armoured Humvee ... which would way a little over 2 tons ... roughly.
EVERY SINGLE TIME sabretooth's strength range is called into question this example is brought up... and EVERY TIME I tell you guys the same damned thing to retort....
but since you either don't read my posts, or don't remember them I'm just going to say "RUCCA" if you don't know why that doesn't stand as a solid standard of evidence compared to everything it contrasts then I can't help you.
well this is the best I could find on the elephant thing...
There dragging strength is under general information.
the lifting strength is confirmed to pretain to their trunk alone.
http://senecaparkzoo.org/resources/pdf/african_elephant.pdf
And that information is on a bush elephant which are smaller and slightly weaker than their full grown african bull elephant counterparts (some stats for the african elephant are at the bottem)
Here's another.. it's under the strongest land animal category.
Just to interject.
Originally posted by jinzin
Maximum carnage: carnage and venom were stalemating throughout the whole series. 😕the only time carnage "beat" venom there, was after venom put himself through an enferno and walked through shreiks sonic blast. When they both fought on a weakened but level playing field venom was crushing carnage to the point spidey begged him to stop.
In that instance in Maximum Carnage Venom was handling Carnage cause Carnage was still under the influence of Spider-Man's "feel good ray" (god that sounds so wrong). Kletus wasn't in his right mind so I wouldn't exactly call that a level playin field
Originally posted by marvelprince
Just to interject.In that instance in Maximum Carnage Venom was handling Carnage cause Carnage was still under the influence of Spider-Man's "feel good ray" (god that sounds so wrong). Kletus wasn't in his right mind so I wouldn't exactly call that a level playin field
Yeah you're right I was a bit overzealous in saying every time... But Venom's beaten him back on every occasion/event none the less...
Usually with help or by plot devices.
Carnage unleashed is more attributed to plot devices than a straight fight between the two.
How so? Venom himself admits that Carnage is better than he is IIRC.
Maximum carnage: carnage and venom were stalemating throughout the whole series.the only time carnage "beat" venom there, was after venom put himself through an enferno and walked through shreiks sonic blast. When they both fought on a weakened but level playing field venom was crushing carnage to the point spidey begged him to stop.
True, but Venom wasn't owning Carnage all the time like your first post implied. And, Carnage seemed to be pretty F-ed up by the rays shot at him by Deathlok.
And venom vs. carnage.. venom DID whoop carnage there. ..granted it was after carnage got the upper hand in the first half of their fight...
They both whooped each other once, but Venom wasn't the one that was going to give birth to a baby, now was he?
Carnage defenitley does not "handle" venom...
Venom does definately not "handle" Carnage either. I'm pretty much assuming they're quite equal.
Yes I do know that doesn't NECESSARILY dictate that he can press 10 tons.. but I still think it's a pretty good indictation of his relative strength level.
It's still not THAT impressive. A better indicator would be a car or so, as we all know how much cars usually weight. If you say he's "around" ten tons he should be picking up cars rather easily. The fact that he doesn't complitely over power Wolverine during their fights, tells us something.
The barrier field expanded with Sabretooth's attempt to penetrate it, so that robbed sabretooth of any momentum or boost from his initial impact... the rest of the way he had to use pure strength and pushing power to muscle through it...
I thought it was just the field giving in, and him pushing fowards. His first tackle would be the critical one.
So unless one's about to argue that Sabretooth's power in his legs and arms is disproportionate when his pushing through something to when he's pressing something, I still think it stands as a RELATIVE but effective example of Sabretooth's strength range.
Your legs are usually lot stronger than your arms are, that's pretty much a fact, but i'm sure you already knew this. Do you have the issue btw? can you post scans? I don't have access to my comix at the moment.
Yeah there's a few other strength feats.. most of them I posted in the sabes/spidey thread
Sorry, I didn't follow that thread. Bother digging them up for this thread?
But not much of it leaves room at conclusive evidence...
and no I don't have links to the elephant stats.. i read them in a magazine.. but I'll look around and see if I can find some for you.
Btw, don't you think Wolverine could have been.. Maybe exaggerating a bit?
Here's another.. it's under the strongest land animal category.
That's only 9 tons..
Personally I can accept that Sabes is over 5 tonner, but 15 tonner? No f*cking way! Unless some hardcore evidence is brought on the table.
rucca, nuff said.
Sorry, but this is the first time I've seen this scan used in a debate. I didn't follow the Spider-man vs Sabes thread either. So.. can I hear your reasoning once more? IDon'tLikeItSoItDoesn'tCount?
Originally posted by Jyppe
Usually with help or by plot devices.
Usually?
Okay he didn't have either at the end of max,
or during their second encounter in v vs c,
or during the peter parker incident
OR during trial...
yep.. so there goes your excuse.. uhh theory.
Originally posted by Jyppe
How so? Venom himself admits that Carnage is better than he is IIRC.
And yeah, Carnage IS physically superior to venom (was) in a lot of ways.. but Venom's also said: "yeah but we're smarter, craftier, and a WHOLE lot deadlier"
Originally posted by Jyppe
True, but Venom wasn't owning Carnage all the time like your first post implied. And, Carnage seemed to be pretty F-ed up by the rays shot at him by Deathlok.
And yes carnage wasn't a peak capacity.. but neither was venom.. far from it, remember two minutes before Carnage and Venom started trading blows Venom could hardly stand.. he was still hurting badly from being tortured.
Originally posted by Jyppe
They both whooped each other once, but Venom wasn't the one that was going to give birth to a baby, now was he?
giving birth to a symbiote spawn as never been stated to weaken an other... Venom gave birth to 5 and he was still kicking spiderman's ass.. Same when he gave birth to carnage.. so really what was your point there?
Originally posted by Jyppe
Venom does definately not "handle" Carnage either. I'm pretty much assuming they're quite equal.
Originally posted by Jyppe
It's still not THAT impressive. A better indicator would be a car or so, as we all know how much cars usually weight. If you say he's "around" ten tons he should be picking up cars rather easily. The fact that he doesn't complitely over power Wolverine during their fights, tells us something.
That's being WAY stronger than what's needed to pick up a car...
A car doesn't have a weight of 7 to 8 tons, A car doesn't weigh as much as a ten ton load..
I'm not sure if this will mean anything to you, but in Sabretooth 2 a speeding ar was coming at sabretooth, he smacked it with a noncholant backhand, obliterating the door and sending it veering onto two wheels...
and the fact that Sabretooth doesn't overpower logan in fights with brute strength only tells us that Sabretooth isn't a character who uses only strength when he fights... It's a staple of the character.. he likes to claw, hack and slash, he rarely uses his power in fights, doesn't mean he doesn't have high ranking strength...
In the same fasion I suppose when Spiderman doesn't overpower captain america in fights that's suppose to tell us that Spidey must not be a 15+ lifter either? Seriously, what kinda crapped up logic is that?
Originally posted by Jyppe
I thought it was just the field giving in, and him pushing fowards. His first tackle would be the critical one.
you assume.. and yet his first tackle did NOTHING.. it was the pushing that did everything....
We could debate what actually took place there all day.. fact is STILL: sabes has more stopping power in his arms and legs than a full grown elephant. Kinda implies he's a strong one.
Originally posted by Jyppe
Your legs are usually lot stronger than your arms are, that's pretty much a fact, but i'm sure you already knew this. Do you have the issue btw? can you post scans? I don't have access to my comix at the moment.
The field was made by forge.. his mutant power is to make machines that do EXACLTY what he intends them to do...
Sabretooth proved his stopping power> elephant's....
So again unless you think Sabretooth's strength is DISPRAPORTIONATE from his legs to his arms, He's WELL into the 10 ton+ range.
Originally posted by Jyppe
Btw, don't you think Wolverine could have been.. Maybe exaggerating a bit?
Please don't tell me you're not about to do what you did in the death argument and dismiss the evidence that makes this an argument in the first place.
Originally posted by Jyppe
That's only 9 tons..
Personally I can accept that Sabes is over 5 tonner, but 15 tonner? No f*cking way! Unless some hardcore evidence is brought on the table.
an excess of 20,000 pounds of dead wieght is close to 10 tons.. 😐
And well, you can continue to think that, Just as we'll continue to think otherwise..
Considering that there's more numerable evidence, more persuasive implications, and generalized assessments and statistics that support our argument I'm perfectly confortable with continuing to think otherwise anyway.
Originally posted by Jyppe
Sorry, but this is the first time I've seen this scan used in a debate. I didn't follow the Spider-man vs Sabes thread either. So.. can I hear your reasoning once more? IDon'tLikeItSoItDoesn'tCount?
And it's the only real, serious scans that calls Sabretooth's strength into question, save a fight incident or two....
My argument isn't an "IDon'tLikeItSoItDoesn'tCount" copout, I'm not going to so easily dismiss what I don't like as you have done in the past...
All I'm saying, as I've said before, is that that is a horrible standard of evidence to use...
STANDARD being the key word..
Okay creed couldn't get a jeep off of him one time, an anti-strength feat that contradicts mulitudes of others... that's fine, but that means next to nothing.. 1 time out of 10 Sabes may not get that car off of him.. but the other 9 he'll be tossing the mofo... It all comes down to majority.. Sabretooth has by and large more evidence to conclude that he's emmensly powerful than the other way around. Anyways here's my retort to that scan, taken from the sabes/spidey thread.
Originally posted by jinzin
sure...
RUCKAnuff said...
the guy (while his stories may have beeen interesting) had a notoriously ridiculous amount of contradictions in his own story archs and worse, had next to no character research when he wrote that story.
For instance, Wolverine's shown shot and plastered by multiple gunmen but a couple of stun guns takes him down.
Sabretooth admits that wolverine's superior to himself in fighting and tracking...
later sabretooth tracks the native when logan can't.. and then soundly whomps him in a fight. Which makes one question why he (sabes) even bothered bringing logan into the story.Oh yeah here's why:
Sabretooth can't even see the native's movements the first time they fight eachother and she badly beats the crap out of him....
except that:
At the end of the arch he viciously kills her AFTER curbing wolverine into the ground.And then we've got the fact that wolverine nonchalantly puts his admantium claws through Sabretooth's ADAMNTIUM skull...
wtf?
Oh that's right, rucka didn't even know sabretooth HAD admantium at the time he wrote this story...
even though it was stated in new x-men, x-men unlimited, Sabretooth; mary shelly overdrive, the weapon x series, and finally previously stated displayed and EMPHASISED in wolverine's own damned series for several entire story archs. 😬
I mean seriously.. Sabretooth's inability to toss that car off himself doesn't even stand out as one of the bad parts of his inconsistancies in his wolverine run.
On the other hand in Sabretooth: death hunt 2, Creed effortlessly and single handedly backhands a car that's speeding towards him, the force of the hit sends the car veering off to the side on two wheels.... but he can't lift a jeep?
In uncanny X-men 213, Creed effortlessly crushes a barbell into a metal deathball, he effortlessly uses himself like an inhuman battering ram smashing his way through the mansion and he uppercuts logan 3 friggin stories into the air, but he can't budge a jeep?
In Sabretooth/Mystique part 4 sabes uses one hand to pick up and hold up a fairly large and thick security bay door, but he can't move a jeep?
In Sabretooth: Death Hunt 1, he uses one nonchalant back hand to send a dozen ninjas airborn by 15 to 20 feet but he can't budge a jeep?
In mary shelly overdrive 1 creed tears up a huge generator out of the rooftop of an apartment building (easily the size of a jeep if not bigger) and uses it to bat away two supersoldiers....but he can't lift a jeep?
Meh, i think you understand where I'm getting at....you want your answer... look no further than the man who wrote it.
Personally I don't know why people don't instantly recognize that particular bit as nothing more than PIS.. because that's exactly what it is, Sabretooth not being able to pick himself up or escape from that is the very definition of PIS, not only was it strictly against the characters representation in both his strength and his skeletal durability... but keeping him pinned down under the car DID help to advance the plot.
It's also hard to believe that Creed could be viewed as anything BUT a character with emmense superstrength as that EXACTLY how he's represented in ever other type of marvel media as well...
In the movie he was using a tree like a baseball bat and knocked out logan (something juggernaught failed to do).
In evolution he's seen smashing wolverine with a car no less, and using gigantic metalic structures to throw at people.
In the old cartoon Sabretooth picks up a police car and literally throws it over an apartment building.
BTW: here's some stats on apartment generators.. http://www.nimsonline.com/resource_typing/Generators.htm
Granted the generator creed picked up didn't have the tractor shell so it probably didn't weigh as much as the XQ600-apartment standard gen, but even the generator's dry weight is in an excess of 15 tons. I realize there's no conclusive proof to equate the xQ600 to what sabes picked up, but I just wanted to show that it was an impressive strength feat nonetheless.
Jinzin, in his defense, punching power/striking, doesn't always equal raw strength.
Anyway... this is not saying the jeep incident is good, but I'm just saying, just because he can punch Wolverine a fare bit, doesn't mean he is going to start benching 20 tons or anything.
Also, with that said, couldn't he just punch the car off him then?
Originally posted by bigbran
Jinzin, in his defense, punching power/striking, doesn't always equal raw strength.
yes I know, and I understand that, but again.. unless one wants to make the argument which they very well could that his stopping power is extremely disproportionate with his lifting strength.. then I don't see how he could do some of the things he's done without being in a higher class of strength...
KOing rogue in 3 punches is something NO ONE under 10 tons aughta be doin no matter how skilled they are at fighting.
Originally posted by bigbran
Anyway... this is not saying the jeep incident is good, but I'm just saying, just because he can punch Wolverine a fare bit, doesn't mean he is going to start benching 20 tons or anything.
Also, with that said, couldn't he just punch the car off him then?
exactly.. couldn't he?
that's the question that makes that feat a PIS moment.
Usually?Okay he didn't have either at the end of max,
or during their second encounter in v vs c,
or during the peter parker incident
OR during trial...yep.. so there goes your excuse.. uhh theory.
Uh, wrong.
End of max. - Carnage's mind was F-ed up by the ray gun, he wasn't even trying to fight Venom really.
Venom vs carnage - You just happened to "forget" that he was pregnant at the time?
Peter parker incident? Issue number, short reviw on the plot? This happened when Venom ate his symbiote? Well, Carnage didn't even try to fight back, so it was hardly a fight.
During trial - They were both shot with the symbiote blockers, but AFAICR only Venom attacked Carnage. They both were propably quite weakened, and hence he went down so easily, did Carnage even attack venom in the issue?
Well it probably had something to do with the fact that venom got hit by a train...
And yeah, Carnage IS physically superior to venom (was) in a lot of ways.. but Venom's also said: "yeah but we're smarter, craftier, and a WHOLE lot deadlier"
That's true, but combatants on KMC fight for best of their ability. Agreed that Venom is more clever and smarter. Carnage is the (more?) insane killer of the two.
As I admitted I was over zealous in my primary post.. I just got caught up in the emotion when I was typing my reply...
Just had to clarify it, so you wouldn't read me wrong. Moving along.
And yes carnage wasn't a peak capacity.. but neither was venom.. far from it, remember two minutes before Carnage and Venom started trading blows Venom could hardly stand.. he was still hurting badly from being tortured.
The difference is that Venom's damage was physical, and Venom heals over time. Carnage's mind was f-ed up. That doesn't really heal instantly. Besides, Venom WANTED to fight, Carnage was just fleeing and digging up his past. Seriously, how f-ed up has man to be to dig up his mother's grave? Even for Cletus.
What does that have to do with anything?giving birth to a symbiote spawn as never been stated to weaken an other... Venom gave birth to 5 and he was still kicking spiderman's ass.. Same when he gave birth to carnage.. so really what was your point there?
Uh, Carnage himself stated that he was weakened after the birth, other wise he would have finnished off Toxin right away. Besides, how well does Spider-man usually fare against Venom?
venom's won or had an advantage in straight fights more times than the opposite.
Could be that Venom is the heroic one of the 2.
How is having more overall stopping power than a full grown bull elephant NOT that impressive?That's being WAY stronger than what's needed to pick up a car...
A car doesn't have a weight of 7 to 8 tons, A car doesn't weigh as much as a ten ton load..
The problem is, that the force field wasn't tested against anything else than Sabretooth's strenght. And he was still pushing against it, that doesn't really measure lifting strenght (Assuming that's how strenght is usually measure in Marvel)
I'm not sure if this will mean anything to you, but in Sabretooth 2 a speeding ar was coming at sabretooth, he smacked it with a noncholant backhand, obliterating the door and sending it veering onto two wheels...
That's pretty interesting. Why wouldn't it mean anything to me? Why didn't you post this earlier? What's the exact issue number so I can look it up myself and then I could maybe post the scans to this thread.
Btw, the Sabretooth respect thread should be tweaked a tad.
and the fact that Sabretooth doesn't overpower logan in fights with brute strength only tells us that Sabretooth isn't a character who uses only strength when he fights... It's a staple of the character.. he likes to claw, hack and slash, he rarely uses his power in fights, doesn't mean he doesn't have high ranking strength...
It's just silly though. I've seen him block some Wolverine's blows efforthlessly, but nothing else really. Even at the times they were grappling on the ground, neither one of them really had upper hand.
Besides, Sabretooth does use moves requireing strenght while fighting. For example slamming Wolverine's back on to his knee. Punching Wolverine with his own fists. etc
In the same fasion I suppose when Spiderman doesn't overpower captain america in fights that's suppose to tell us that Spidey must not be a 15+ lifter either? Seriously, what kinda crapped up logic is that?
What kind of moronic example is that? I bet you didn't know that Spider-man holds back against nearly all of his opponents! Especially against a friend. 🙄 Yes, I'm sure Sabretooth holds back most of his strenght, because he doesn't want to hurt his good friend Wolverine. If anything happened, he wouldn't be able to get over it. 🙄
No I don't have the issue here, No I can't post scans.. and even if I could what would it matter...The field was made by forge.. his mutant power is to make machines that do EXACLTY what he intends them to do...
Sabretooth proved his stopping power> elephant's....
So again unless you think Sabretooth's strength is DISPRAPORTIONATE from his legs to his arms, He's WELL into the 10 ton+ range.
Did Forge actually state that the field could take a raging elephant? Wait, are we debating about overall strenght or just benchpressing?
Hell, your Wolverine jumps 50ft in the air, but only benches 2 tons(?) Must be quite Dispraportionate.
No.Please don't tell me you're not about to do what you did in the death argument and dismiss the evidence that makes this an argument in the first place.
How so? Can you write down what his words were exactly?
I'm not dismissing anything. I'm just thinking how serious Wolverine was at the time. How literally he said it /meant it
And how nice of you to bring up old debates. And if you bothered to read my posts, I gave up on the matter (At the time I got the english version of the comic where Deathverine smashes through the door) But nooo. You just kept going. And Deathverine did demonstrate somekind of flashing energy when he punched Colossus' brother Mikhail.
Besides, it's not like I created the theory. It was floating some time around the netz when the issue came out. Just to be sure I asked what the Marvel guys had to say about the matter. Still no reply though.
I'll keep you updated.
an excess of 20,000 pounds of dead wieght is close to 10 tons..And well, you can continue to think that, Just as we'll continue to think otherwise..
Considering that there's more numerable evidence, more persuasive implications, and generalized assessments and statistics that support our argument I'm perfectly confortable with continuing to think otherwise anyway.
It said excess? Any idea how much?
Instead of "whining" you could have posted issue numbers/feats. Exactly what I asked for. I'm more than willing to chance my opinion if some hardcore evidence is brought on the table. Maybe it's my ignorance, but that's why you're supposed to prove me wrong. Right?
And it's the only real, serious scans that calls Sabretooth's strength into question, save a fight incident or two....
'Kay. but all scans should be taken into consideration. I'm not trying to downplay his higher showings, but this also sets a quide line. Pretty much the same with Venom's strenght, apparently they fluctuate a lot.
My argument isn't an "IDon'tLikeItSoItDoesn'tCount" copout, I'm not going to so easily dismiss what I don't like as you have done in the past...
All I'm saying, as I've said before, is that that is a horrible standard of evidence to use...
STANDARD being the key word..
I don't really dismiss any evidence, I'll try to find other plausible solutions or theories. You should try it some time. Though that might've only worked because I don't have a hard on for any character.
To be honest, that shouldn't be used as standard of evidence. That would be just plain dumb. Sabes has other feats to back up. It'd be complitely moronic to assume that Sabretooth's strenght level would be THAT low. Hell, I think even Wolverine could have wiggled his way from under the car.
KOing rogue in 3 punches is something NO ONE under 10 tons aughta be doin no matter how skilled they are at fighting.
That feat is a bit iffy with me, as next time he fought with Rogue, it didn't go so well for him.
And again it seems that you're taking this bit too seriously or getting pretty much worked up about by it. Maybe i'm reading you wrong, but your responses don't sound that nice to me (though in all fairness, neither do mine) but still.
I'm going to check for some scans If I can get some good strenght feats for Sabes. I'm not narrowminded, and I'm able to chance my view/opinion, if there's some good evidence. K?
