Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
[BCan you say that it is? No.
You know as well as I do, because you've actually said it, that a legal contract does not create nor enhance love. To suggest that something not connected to love (As you've also admitted) can enhance it, is stupid.
-AC
-AC [/B]
I can't, and that's the reason I am not stating [as] objective facts. I have held the ground that marriage CAN be logical depending on the person(s), not it IS logical or has to be logical.
Originally posted by Robtard
I can't, and that's the reason I am not the one stating things as objective facts. I have held the ground that marriage CAN be logical depending on the person(s), not it IS logical or HAS to be logical.
Despite all evidence pointing to the contrary? Because that's exactly what's against you, all the reasoning.
You haven't got a base for your claims.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Despite all evidence pointing to the contrary? Because that's exactly what's against you, all the reasoning.You haven't got a base for your claims.
-AC
Fair enough, but I answered your question and you didn't answer mine, you simple reversed my question back at me which I answered...
So, can you answer: (?)
Originally posted by Robtard
Can you say beyond the 'shadow of a doubt' that my relationship or anyone else's relationship (post marriage) isn't better off because of the marriage ritual, commitment and contract?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
We're not discussing love, we're discussing marriage.-AC
Yes and logic and reason and love and............................
yeah marriage.
One of the reasons folks marry is for love, is it logical, or nec? That is all subjective depending on what folks think and feel.
Frankly I don't give a rat's ass about marriage.
Originally posted by DarkCI would consider marrying for financial gain a relatively logical decision if the alternative was being indigent. Or marrying for a citizenship a sound decision if the alternative was being deported.
Exactly, but even if they are more objective notions, it doesn't make them superior to the subjective ones or negate them. I'd say a fair chunk of married couples blithely steer their minds clear of the things completely exclusive to marriage anyways. It doesn't make the objective reasons "logical", that's a bit like saying that you're buying a can opener mostly because it's white.
However I don't think the same can be said for two people in a stable loving long term relationship marrying 'for love' as opposed to staying unwed.
Originally posted by RobtardNo, not with regard to 'love.' That would be entirely subjective. Nor can you conclude any substantive improvement or enhancement due to entering a marriage contract to a relationship. The null hypothesis is assumed correct, unless an effect is proven.
Can you say beyond the 'shadow of a doubt' that my relationship or anyone else's relationship (post marriage) isn't better off because of the marriage ritual, commitment and contract?
And the point however being that there is no logical rationale in marrying for love; as already mentioned "We're in love, we should get married." is not logical inference.
50% of marriages end in divorce last time I checked. The advent of e-divorce: http://www.quickedivorce.co.uk/
Originally posted by Soleran
Yes and logic and reason and love and............................yeah marriage.
One of the reasons folks marry is for love, is it logical, or nec? That is all subjective depending on what folks think and feel.
Frankly I don't give a rat's ass about marriage.
Subjective in what sense? In the sense of what they want? Sure. Love is a reason to marry, but from an objective point of view, not a logical one. The logical side does not differ from person to person, it's objective.
-AC
Originally posted by Robtard
Fair enough, but I answered your question and you didn't answer mine, you simple reversed my question back at me which I answered...So, can you answer: (?)
Can you say beyond the 'shadow of a doubt' that my relationship or anyone else's relationship (post marriage) isn't better off because of the marriage ritual, commitment and contract?
No, because "better off" doesn't singularly refer to love.
If you're asking me; Can you say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the contract, legality and ceremony did not increase the love? I would say yes, and according to your posts, you're inclined to say the same thing.
Because we have both agreed that it adds NOTHING outside of legal gain.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, because "better off" doesn't singularly refer to love.If you're asking me; Can you say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the contract, legality and ceremony did not increase the love? I would say yes, and according to your posts, you're inclined to say the same thing.
Because we have both agreed that it adds NOTHING outside of legal gain.
-AC
My wording should have been more exact.
I'm curious how you can definitively say that as fact, is love something that can be measured, weighed or tested?
I said it's possible that it adds nothing as I cannot speak for others peoples feelings. I used myself as an example; I said I love my wife now more than I did before marriage; being intellectually honest, I can't definitely state that the 'greater love' has nothing or everything to do with the marriage. Until I'm able to see alternate realities (which won't happen), I'll simply never know for certain. Maybe the marriage act/ritual acted as a catalyst for greater love?
Originally posted by Robtard
My wording should have been more exact.I'm curious how you can definitively say that as fact, is love something that can be measured, weighed or tested?
I said it's possible that it adds nothing as I cannot speak for others peoples feelings. I used myself as an example; I said I love my wife now more than I did before marriage; being intellectually honest, I can't definitely state that the 'greater love' has nothing or everything to do with the marriage. Until I'm able to see alternate realities (which won't happen), I'll simply never know for certain. Maybe the marriage act/ritual acted as a catalyst for greater love?
You're focusing too much on love and not enough on marriage. Forget about measuring love for a second.
Think about marriage, JUST marriage. Realise what marriage is, why it exists, what it involves and what is has become, then you tell me how this frivolous legal ceremony with factually has no inherent connection to the emotion known as love, can affect it in any way. The answer, quite clearly, is that it cannot.
If ANYTHING, it can be a negative on love. If the relationship fails, marriage serves nothing more than entangle people in bitter court battles a lot of the time.
It gives nothing to a relationship, and it has no connection to love just because humans associate them, so it's silly to assume it has any bearing.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're focusing too much on love and not enough on marriage. Forget about measuring love for a second.Think about marriage, JUST marriage. Realise what marriage is, why it exists, what it involves and what is has become, then you tell me how this frivolous legal ceremony with factually has no inherent connection to the emotion known as love, can affect it in any way. The answer, quite clearly, is that it cannot.
If ANYTHING, it can be a negative on love. If the relationship fails, marriage serves nothing more than entangle people in bitter court battles a lot of the time.
It gives nothing to a relationship, and it has no connection to love just because humans associate them, so it's silly to assume it has any bearing.
-AC
I am thinking about marriage. Lets take a different approach... we both agree that marriage came after love, but what do you think first spurned the concept of marriage, i.e. devoting yourself to another by physically going through motions and rituals? Do you think it was to keep people [women] in check or do you think peoples love for each other caused this ritual to manifest in almost every society across the world? Or something entirely else?
Originally posted by Robtard
I am thinking about marriage. Lets take a different approach... we both agree that marriage came after love, but what do you think first spurned the concept of marriage, i.e. devoting yourself to another by physically going through motions and rituals? Do you think it was to keep people [women] in check or do you think peoples love for each other caused this ritual to manifest in almost every society across the world?
What gave birth to marriage? In Europe it was seen as something that needed to happen for society to accept sexual intercourse between a male and a female.
Again, superficial benefit, it earns you nothing you need, benefits you in no way other than monetarily.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What gave birth to marriage? In Europe it was seen as something that needed to happen for society to accept sexual intercourse between a male and a female.Again, superficial benefit, it earns you nothing you need, benefits you in no way other than monetarily.
-AC
You realize that marriage rituals are far older than that right?
Originally posted by Robtard
You realize that marriage rituals are far older than that right?
Yes, my point was that it doesn't earn you anything you didn't have previously, or need. Do you not see that?
Marriage, when legality isn't a factor, like with tribes and people like that, is even more illogical. Them having reasons for doing it does not make it any more logical.
You ARE NOT GAINING ANYTHING necessary, so objectively...marrying for love is illogical.
-AC
Originally posted by Robtard
I'm curious how you can definitively say that as fact, is love something that can be measured, weighed or tested?
Originally posted by RobtardAnecdotal examples are bad, but let's run with it. Presumably you and your wife were in a stable relationship before marriage and have been after marriage; there isn't anything to suggest that anything other than the continuance of a stable relationship increased said 'love'.
I said it's possible that it adds nothing as I cannot speak for others peoples feelings. I used myself as an example; I said I love my wife now more than I did before marriage; being intellectually honest, I can't definitely state that the 'greater love' has nothing or everything to do with the marriage. Until I'm able to see alternate realities (which won't happen), I'll simply never know for certain. Maybe the marriage act/ritual acted as a catalyst for greater love?
And regardless of whether getting married has or hasn't increased 'love', that doesn't make "We're in love therefore we should get married." a logical deduction. If the reasoning was "Being married will enhance our love as opposed to remaining unwed, therefore we should get married." it would be a sound justification... if it wasn't baseless.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, my point was that it doesn't earn you anything you didn't have previously, or need. Do you not see that?Marriage, when legality isn't a factor, like with tribes and people like that, is even more illogical. Them having reasons for doing it does not make it any more logical.
You ARE NOT GAINING ANYTHING necessary, so objectively...marrying for love is illogical.
-AC
...and I do not see how you can say that as an objective fact for everyone who's married, going to marry or ever been married that they will not gain/did not gain something emotional out of the ritual of marriage.
Granted, on the flip-side I cannot say people will without the 'shadow of a doubt' gain something emotional.
Originally posted by Robtard
...and I do not see how you can say that as an objective fact for everyone who's married, going to marry or ever been married that they will not gain/did not gain something emotional out of the ritual of marriage.Granted, on the flip-side I cannot say people will without the 'shadow of a doubt' gain something emotional.
What you can do is for once, look at the facts.
Marriage has no connection to love, none whatsoever. Associated with, not connected to. So there is absolutely no reason to assume anyone would gain anything FROM marriage, BECAUSE of marriage.
If it's a "lovely" ceremony and you get all choked up, and it's a great day, that's not getting something out of it BECAUSE of the legality, that's pure emotion, and you don't need legality to prove or experience that. If it's a ceremony you crave, make one up. It needn't be marriage.
-AC
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
'love' has observable neural correlates; I'm not saying it can be measured, weighed or tested in any meaningful way right not, but it has basis in biology.Anecdotal examples are bad, but let's run with it. Presumably you and your wife were in a stable relationship before marriage and have been after marriage; there isn't anything to suggest that anything other than the continuance of a stable relationship increased said 'love'.
And regardless of whether getting married has or hasn't increased 'love', that doesn't make "We're in love therefore we should get married." a logical deduction. If the reasoning was "Being married will enhance our love as opposed to remaining unwed, therefore we should get married." it would be a sound justification... if it wasn't baseless.
I was asking specifically if it can be measured, weighed or tested.
Correct, I never said I love her more BECAUSE we're married, simple that I do love her more now than before the marriage... Is there a connection? I can't say for certain, but I also cannot dismiss it for certain.
I never argued that two people in love should or have to get married.
Originally posted by Robtard
I was asking specifically if it can be measured, weighed or tested.Correct, I never said I love her more BECAUSE we're married, simple that I do love her more now than before the marriage... Is there a connection? I can't say for certain, but I also cannot dismiss it for certain.
I never argued that two people in love should or have to get married.
What reason is there for a legal contract with no emotional connection, to have any bearing on your love? Absolutely none whatsoever.
Can't say for certain? I believe you just won't say.
-AC