ROTS Anakin V.S. KOTOR Revan

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, I think you're giving Anakin too much credit here. You can't really compare Dooku to Revan in the force because Revan IS far superior to him in that category, so in a force fight Anakin doesn't really have a chance.

I didn't say that Anakin would win in a Force fight. I said he'd win in a lightsaber fight, which he would. Revan may be a lot ahead of Dooku in the Force, but there is nothing to indicate that he is so in the lightsaber skill department. Anakin would soundly kick Revan's ass in that department.

Originally posted by Gideon
You know, LeGenD, I simply don't understand why you can continue to debate; people have often compared you to Nebaris, but realistically, Nebaris is capable of constructing a good argument (when he isn't clouded by bias or simply not wanting to be a jackass). You aren't bound by such "restraints". You simply argue and argue and argue and get beat and get beat and get beat. Then you argue some more.

What I mentioned above is what I know about Revan and Malak and I used some sources to also back up my points. Now you have trouble reading my posts then stop reading them or add me to your ignore list as it will save you from my views.

Originally posted by Gideon
As far as this fight is concerned, it can go either way. Accounts of Revan seem to imply that he pretty much amazing with the Force and his usage of it. Anakin's power is uncontrolled and lies mostly within his potential (even though he is capable of spectacular feats), and so he lacks Revan's control. However, in certain situations, that is irrelevent. Count Dooku - as Advent has proven - was a supremely powerful Jedi (one of the very best in SW history) and then became a greater Sith Lord, meaning that he advanced in power and overall ability under Darth Sidious. And, yet, look what happened to Dooku in his fight with Anakin? Once a certain point was reached - Dooku's skill, knowledge, and experience was simply made into a joke. He cut through Dooku's defense and wiped him out.

Some people consider Vader to be most powerful Jedi and some don't.

Originally posted by Gideon
This is what I interpret to be "Anakin at his peak" (aside from him at full potential, in which Revan would be annihilated), and so I do believe that Revan would die a painful, miserable death in a lightsaber fight, or in a situation similar to Dooku's, where his skills are made irrelevent. Revan isn't miles and miles above Dooku, so if we used common logical deduction - if Anakin can render someone of Dooku's caliber (who would not be owned by Revan) a joke (as spoken by the omniscient narrator), then Anakin would do the same to Revan. Granted, it may take more effort, but Revan will die to Anakin in a swordfight, and this is simply the irrefutable case.

Originally posted by Gideon
However, if Revan plays smart and uses his considerable Force prowess from the beginning, I see him winning.

Thanks for your particpation but really give others some space to speak as well.

Originally posted by Gideon
I didn't say that Anakin would win in a Force fight. I said he'd win in a lightsaber fight, which he would. Revan may be a lot ahead of Dooku in the Force, but there is [B]nothing to indicate that he is so in the lightsaber skill department. Anakin would soundly kick Revan's ass in that department. [/B]

While I disagree with you there, and despite Revan being the top duelist and force user of tens of thousands, we can't really gauge his saber skill because it is, for the most part largely unknown, so I won't delve into that argument.

I don't care about my comparison with other people as I may not be as good as you and others are but I have enough right to participate in a debate as you have.

What I mentioned above is what I know about Revan and Malak and I used some sources to also back up my points. Now you have trouble reading my posts then stop reading them or add me to your ignore list as it will save you from my views.

I'm glad to see that you don't care in regards to your "reputation" here, and I'd recommend continuing along that philisophical road, because it is beyond repair. I mean, really, you're not a debater. You're the type (with help) to be a school counselor. One minute, you're trying to be "zeh logic tiger!!" and the next you're a kitten. Do us a favor and pick one.

Fights indeed can always go either way but this in the case when two equals clash. Anakin is among best and I never denied this but simply trying to over-state him in certain areas won't help. I know that Anakin is a saber master but that does not means that he can over-power and defeat more powerful individuals. Advent has her own views about such things and I have mine. You agree more with Advent then you are allowed to do so as it is your choice but you cannot just go on and trash views of others that you don't like. People have different perceptions about things and you should be well aware of this.

There you go: the fundamental flaw of debating. You're of the opinion that simply because you have an opinion that it makes you justified and - arguably - right. This isn't the case. Everyone has an opinion on every issue, and though they are welcomed to that opinion [even if it defies logic and reason] that doesn't prevent them from being wrong. If your opinion is refuted and tossed aside, it is no less of an opinion, but it is one that is factually wrong. Understand this and accept this. We're not saying that you have to get rid of your high standards for Revan or any other KotoR character, but we are saying that in most cases - facts can be proven. Basically, you can believe that "Revan > Anakin" but when more support comes for the opposition, it means you are wrong.

Some people consider Vader to be most powerful Jedi and some don't.

And those people would be wrong, as it can be proven and discounted that Vader is not the most powerful Jedi (considering how "Vader" isn't a Jedi, but a Sith) and if you are referring to Anakin - he is definately one of the most skilled and possesses the highest potential - but even then he is not "the strongest".

The point is that Anakin never reached his peak. We use ROTS as his best form for debates. Revan has clearly done and accomplished more then Anakin and several sources indicate him to be very powerful. Dooku is one very powerful individual indeed but I have provided a good case of Malak in my above post and most of those points are valid. People tend to forget that age and training of a Jedi are not the only factors that determine there capabilies as this has been proven false even in the movies and I have hinted on this in my post.

A regular Malak isn't on Dooku's level; hell, I can make an argument that would put him beneath Maul. Revan has "accomplished" more in terms of political and militaristic means but that doesn't make him a better fighter than Anakin. Hell, I could even point out that Anakin killed Durge - who was "virtually unstoppable" in a case even more extreme than Malak. Anakin also lacked Revan's lifetime of experience and training in the Jedi arts, as well as Revan's dabbling into the dark side. And then of course we can't even begin to say as to how tightly controlled and regulated Anakin was in comparison to Revan (through Sidious and the Jedi). I suppose since Sidious "accomplished" more than either Revan or Luke or Dooku or Yoda, he can take them all at the same time?

I agree but Revan is no less then Anakin even in Saber Combat. This is my belief and if you don't accept it and I expect this from some others as well, it is your choice. The point is that Revan and Anakin never clashed so we can't truely tell that who can win but since we can look at their accomplishments and references and adventured, we can get a perspective of how the fight can proceed.

What you "think" and what is "real" can be called two completely different things. You think that way? Back it up.

Thanks for your particpation but really give others some space to speak as well.

And thanks for this senseless and irrelevent tidbit of information. Listen, son, this is an "internet forum". If someone wants some "space to speak", they are well within reason and capability to do so.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
While I disagree with you there, and despite Revan being the top duelist and force user of tens of thousands, we can't really gauge his saber skill because it is, for the most part largely unknown, so I won't delve into that argument.

That is poor reasoning; Revan's order /= Anakin's order. Anakin has a lot more competition in the saber department, such as Dooku, Mace, Yoda, and so on. So, really, DS. Revan's upper-level competition can't really compare to those three.

Originally posted by Gideon
That is poor reasoning; Revan's order /= Anakin's order. Anakin has a lot more competition in the saber department, such as Dooku, Mace, Yoda, and so on. So, really, DS. Revan's upper-level competition can't really compare to those three.

What do you mean poor reasoning? Notice how I said I can't make an argument for Revan BECAUSE he is an unknown. I recognize Anakin's order as a whole was more powerful, but that itself is hardly conclusive evidence that Anakin can beat Revan. And why can't we compare Revan and Malak to Yoda, Dooku, Mace, and Anakin? I think it's poor reasoning if you said Anakin>Revan in saber combat just BECAUSE he had more competition.

Originally posted by Advent
@ S_w_LeGo:

Be quiet, and go respond to my where I, and everyone else, kicked your ass in this thread. I don't have time to watch Barney, and play with these toy arguments you give. Let someone who's a more capable debater attempt this situation.

The point is that some people in other Forms changed my perception about Force Lightning.

I was among those who believed that very powerful Force Lightning can eliminate a Jedi. And I now once again believe this so it is not a big deal. People always learn from what they experience.

But so much pride is not good. You are an exceptional debator but that does not means that you are superior to others in other cases as well.

You have more sources and comics and novels of Star Wars and this is what gives you ultimate edge.

But note that not all will agree with you on every point. People tend to have different perceptions of things but that does not means that we should trash them because their views differ from ours.

In the Star Wars official forums, you will be stunned to see that so many different views exist regarding Star Wars and each person has his/her own perceptions. We can change some but not all.

Some people don't even know much about Revan there I think.

I agree with Sexy. We all know Revan would beat Anakin easily with the Force. But still we know both, Revan and Anakin, were amazingly skilled with the lightsaber as well. You cant simply say Anakin would really beat Revan by much. We know theyre amazing with the lightsaber becuz of what weve seen. For Anakin, in the movies, and for Revan in KOTOR. I mean, cmon, you cant say beatin a whole army of Dark Jedi AND Darth Malak IN the STAR FORGE while at their MAX and with the help of Bastila's battle meditation isnt somethin. Im not sayin Revan would win, but i just want to make the point that it may be quite close in terms of saber combat, anyhow.

That's not what I said. I said Escape simply misread my post. I didn't say Revan is better than Anakin because he was #1 in an order of tens of thousands. I said even with all of these advantages going to Revan, we simply don't know anything about his saber skills in comparison to the PT's top dogs.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm glad to see that you don't care in regards to your "reputation" here, and I'd recommend continuing along that philisophical road, because it is beyond repair. I mean, really, you're not a debater. You're the type (with help) to be a school counselor. One minute, you're trying to be "zeh logic tiger!!" and the next you're a kitten. Do us a favor and pick one.

I have my strong points in some cases and also weak points in some cases. I cannot be perfect in all cases. And I won't start my self-praise to lift my image up. You don't like my views then simply don't respond.

Originally posted by Gideon
There you go: the fundamental flaw of debating. You're of the opinion that simply because you have an opinion that it makes you justified and - arguably - right. This isn't the case. Everyone has an opinion on every issue, and though they are welcomed to that opinion [even if it defies logic and reason] that doesn't prevent them from being wrong. If your opinion is refuted and tossed aside, it is no less of an opinion, but it is one that is factually wrong. Understand this and accept this. We're not saying that you have to get rid of your high standards for Revan or any other KotoR character, but we are saying that in most cases - facts can be proven. Basically, you can believe that "Revan > Anakin" but when more support comes for the opposition, it means you are wrong.

I just mention my views. I hardly ever counter your opinions as you might have noted this in past few weeks but still you have your perceptions and I have mine. I sometimes however do disagree with views of others as this is part of debates but this does not means that I can change views of others forever. You should understand this that you cannot go on and dictate about what you think is true on others. I do also concede or accept points of others like I recently did in one of the threads here and thus I do think positively.

Originally posted by Gideon
And those people would be wrong, as it can be proven and discounted that Vader is not the most powerful Jedi (considering how "Vader" isn't a Jedi, but a Sith) and if you are referring to Anakin - he is definately one of the most skilled and possesses the highest potential - but even then he is not "the strongest".

Originally posted by Gideon
A regular Malak isn't on Dooku's level; hell, I can make an argument that would put him beneath Maul. Revan has "accomplished" more in terms of political and militaristic means but that doesn't make him a better fighter than Anakin. Hell, I could even point out that Anakin killed Durge - who was "virtually unstoppable" in a case even more extreme than Malak. Anakin also lacked Revan's lifetime of experience and training in the Jedi arts, as well as Revan's dabbling into the dark side. And then of course we can't even begin to say as to how tightly controlled and regulated Anakin was in comparison to Revan (through Sidious and the Jedi). I suppose since Sidious "accomplished" more than either Revan or Luke or Dooku or Yoda, he can take them all at the same time?

If Dooku will be put in a game then he will seem even less impressive because Malak knew more Sith techniques and powers then him as I made a comparison list here. Game Mechanics regarding fighting capabilities are not at all to be trusted.

And I agree that Sidious accomplished more then Revan as well. He is the most successful Sith Lord in the SW history.

Originally posted by Gideon
What you "think" and what is "real" can be called two completely different things. You think that way? Back it up.

Originally posted by Gideon
And thanks for this senseless and irrelevent tidbit of information. Listen, son, this is an "internet forum". If someone wants some "space to speak", they are well within reason and capability to do so.

"Exceptional debating"? I spit my milk out, and was rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off at that. You sound like some corny rival in Pokémon.

Now, really nearly nothing you wrote even proves anything. You just engaged in feat wars, as well as type up a huge response against things I didn't even mention, or was trying to argue against. In reality, "exceptional debating" is every post I make, every post Gideon makes, etc. You, and "exceptional", hell even "debating" in the same sentence? Rofl.

I mean, just look at the bullshit you posted on behalf of Kavar. Not just that, but let me show what you I'm talking about:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. The handmaiden in KOTOR II described the fight between Revan and Malak as an Epic one. The vision of Duron Qel Droma also indicated Revan holding his ignited Light Saber and standing tall over fallen Malak. Even on official Star Wars blogs section, it was indicated in the profile entry of Revan that Revan killed Malak in a “Titanic” Duel. All these cases suggest that immense Saber Combat took place between Revan and Malak on Star Forge.

Thank you for being completely irrelevant. How does getting a description ("titantic", "epic", etc.) indicate anything about a lightsaber duel, as you said 'all these cases'? Oh? What's that? They don't?

Now, can you provide me with any proof that it was specifically, and undoubtedly just a saber duel, as Nebaris' initial post implied? Thought not, so go back to the sandlot, junior.

Now obviously Revan was not posing there with his Light Saber.

So, because he's merely got his lightsaber pointed down, and whatnot, it was a straight lightsaber duel? If that's the case Count Dooku never tried to assault Obi-Wan with Force lightning in AotC, simply because to anyone who saw just that part where Dooku is about to bring his blade down on Obi-Wan, it would've looked as if they were dueling the entire time.

Thanks for, again, proving nothing. For all we know, they had a huge Force battle initially, and ended it off in a short, two second samurai saber duel, or similar circumstances. We don't know what happened, and you can't make a deduction based off the evidence we currently have. Too bad, so sad.

2. The above cases suggest nothing about straightforward lightsaber combat, nor do they prove much of anything, except that the duel was seemingly close; which means that Revan didn't utterly demolish Malak.

The entire Force that Malak had on his disposal was indeed very powerful and with support from Bastilla’s Battle Meditation, they were invincible.

That just furthers my point. Thanks for the support.

But SW Databank also used word “he” when referring to Malak , when using the term “nearly unstoppable”.

Wow, you're not lying at all. Let's see the quote from the databank:

"Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed."

It says "Malak", not whatever you've suggested. So, what are you smoking? Furthermore, even if it did, it really doesn't matter, because if you had any grasp over the English language (you don't), you'd know that nearly the entire paragraph was dedicated to talking about the Republic against Malak's forces, likewise, it states that the Republic won due to the fact that Star Forge was destroyed, so we can make an inference through that, that it was insinuating Malak was nigh unconquerable, because of all the support he had at his disposal (Star Forge, Bastila, etc.).

The choices of words do matter here as this is mentioned in an official source. They could have said that Malak’s Forces were nearly unstoppable when mentioning this but they did not and instead chose to say that Malak was nearly unstoppable.

Again, you have no grasp over the English language. It's clearly indicating that the Star Forge's infinite supply of forces are what is making him "nearly unstoppable", hence the beginning, and end of the lines talking about "Republic forces", and "Malak's forces".

Even if you don't want to believe such, the quote is up for interpretation, ergo you cannot say that "Ooh! Malak himself is nearly unstoppable", and act as if it matters much, because it can be said both ways, and you can't prove yours as being absolutely correct (neither can I, but that's not what I'm trying to do anyways).

^
You see, if I want to take down your argument, I will. It's not hard, I just have to take time I'm not going to take, because in my perspective, your posts are pathetic, and the one you made in response to mine was needlessly lengthy, because it didn't prove much of anything.

In a Force fight Revan wins, but in a lightsaber only Anakin wins, regarding Dookus case, Anakin only had to decide to win against Dooku, even if Revan is better then Dooku with a blade, he cant just decide to win like Anakin did, no one except Anakin could do that.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's not what I said. I said Escape simply misread my post. I didn't say Revan is better than Anakin because he was #1 in an order of tens of thousands. I said even with all of these advantages going to Revan, we simply don't know anything about his saber skills in comparison to the PT's top dogs.

No, no. Srry if i didnt write things clear enough, Sexy. I never meant to say Revan is better than Anakin beacause he was no.1 in an order of tens of thousands, and i know we know nothin in comparison to the PT's dogs, im just sayin that if he did all of that, he must be pretty good handling a saber.

obviosuly VERY good

Of course he is very good, but not as good as Anakin.

Even if Revan could beat Anakin in the force department, what makes anyone here think he would? Once he entered melee, no way he could get off a force attack while in saber combat (seeing as how Dooku's force prowess was called "A joke," even though he uses Makashi, a form that leaves a hand free, for possible force attacks).
Now, why would Revan enter melee? Well, a good reason is because he doesn't know who the Hell Anakin is, and is woefully unaware of how badly he will get demolished and how quickly Anakin could be wearing his skin like a suit. I thought of another reason thanks to my good friend Nebby. He pointed out with such intensely powerful emotion and unwavering rhetoric that:

Originally posted by allfg
There's also the fact that Revan was perfectly content with going into battle with three powerful jedi with just his saber. Now we now that Revan certainly has the ability to have just taken them all out with the force, yet he was still confident enough in his saber ability to take it easy and just use his saber...

Wow. That was amazing. Basically, allfg has shown us that Revan, as a first reaction, brings out the lightsaber (also, in the picture of Revan over a defeated Malak Revan had a lightsaber out). Meaning, Anakin, as a first reaction, brings out a can of Whoop Ass.

I agree, but, Revan wouldn't go in every fight the same way.

Yes, but, that does go to show that Revan will most likely attack with his lightsaber.

Also, Anakin is fast enough to dodge some force attacks, and he has some good defence in the force.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FZ_93owuE-o
0:45
4:29

Although this obviously isn't the best video to show Anakin being fine against force attacks; keep in mind this is while he was a Padawan. As a Knight he was much more on top of his game, judging by the fight with Dooku. This video only shows him getting hit by force attacks that are in the thick of melee, and, as a Knight, if an attempt is made at that, the attacker will lose a significant amount of... limbs.

Yes, but Asajj isn't strong in the Force as Revan.

"From the site of Anakin Slywalker's last stand, where he sought to destroy his friend and former Master, Ob1-Wan Kenobi, a fearsome specter in black has risen. Once the most powerful Knight ever known to the Jedi Order, he is now a disciple of the dark side, a lord of the dreaded Sith, and the avenging right hand of the galaxy's ruthless new Emperor."

So as far as power goes, I don't think Revan is up there with Anakin. Does he have more control over his abilities? Absolutely, but as Escape pointed out - so did Dooku. Plus Dooku had the lightsaber advantage. Anakin, at his known peak, is too much for almost anyone to deal with in an all out fight (which includes the lightsaber), so having more power or ability in the force is worthless if you cant get the opportunity to use it. But even then, honestly, we don't know the extent of Anakin's force ability because he never demonstrated it to it's highest capacity, that we know of. Just because Revan has done certain things, doesn't mean he's definitely above Anakin, although it is a strong possibility. I dunno, force fight - Revan; sabers - Anakin; all out - that can go either way, but I'm leaning towards Anakin.