Communism and atheism.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

Communism cannot be recognised as religion. Communism as an idea, that is.
It is exactly like saying Capitalism or Socialism can be considered religions. They are not and they cannot.
Its a complitely different phenomenon altogether.

I think this depends more on the definition of religion

for instance, several "ideologies" from the east are considered "religions" simply because they have weird rituals and practice, though follow very few of the standard "religious" conventions we would describe. A lot of new age religious stuff is much like this as well, mainly since it has roots in eastern mythology.

If in talking about religion you mean "belief in something" then socialism and capitalism and any other ideologies can be a "religion". However, if you take it in a more western sense, then things like Buddhism or Confucianism wouldn't be religions, nor would astrology and other crap of the like.

IMHO there is almost no reason to distinguish between ideology and religion. Maybe the best way to look at it would be as a continuum based on things like rituals, indoctrination, accountability, transparency etc. On a scale like this, capitalism and socialism are going to fall at the lowest end, seeing as there is almost (re:almost) no indoctrination in their systems, and they are normally open, democratic and free. Mainstream religion would probably score lower than communism in practice, since there are very strong similarities between them as far as rituals and indoctrination goes, however in moderate Christianity and Islam (or any other major religion) the leaders are accountable to the people and generally behave in a transparent manner. Of course on the far end of the scale you get stuff like cults and Scientology or even some conspiracy theories.

Originally posted by inamilist
This is a cool thread, it always neat to think about the link in things like this.

Religion can somewhat be reduced to rituals and beliefs about the world. Communism and communist states often incorporated many of these ideas in their methods of holding power over people.

I think in a very academic sense, communism is atheistic, in that it recognizes no God. In fact, I think the question is moot in many ways because communism as a theory says nothing about the existence of the divine, and there is no reason a communist couldn't also be a theist. For Marx, it was the subversive structure of religion that he hated. People became addicted and out of touch with reality, hence the reference to opium. It is likely that communism is against the established hierarchical structure of the church, though it is very ironic given that most if not all communist leaders have had to resort to many of the same tactics of persuasion, indoctrination and coercion as organized religions do in order to keep their people happy.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Communism is one ruler of a bunch of peasants. How is that saying there is no god? If anything it's saying it is!

yes and no

the parallels are abundant, however, there is no claim in communist doctrine that the leader of the state is a divine being (in fact, pure communism would have no single leader) and it would be ridiculous to call someone who follows a mortal leader a theist for that.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Communism is one ruler of a bunch of peasants. How is that saying there is no god? If anything it's saying it is!

What so a ruler is a god now is it? When we debate proof of God in the religon forum we are debating proof of a ruler?

Originally posted by inamilist
I think this depends more on the definition of religion

for instance, several "ideologies" from the east are considered "religions" simply because they have weird rituals and practice, though follow very few of the standard "religious" conventions we would describe. A lot of new age religious stuff is much like this as well, mainly since it has roots in eastern mythology.

If in talking about religion you mean "belief in something" then socialism and capitalism and any other ideologies can be a "religion". However, if you take it in a more western sense, then things like Buddhism or Confucianism wouldn't be religions, nor would astrology and other crap of the like.

IMHO there is almost no reason to distinguish between ideology and religion. Maybe the best way to look at it would be as a continuum based on things like rituals, indoctrination, accountability, transparency etc. On a scale like this, capitalism and socialism are going to fall at the lowest end, seeing as there is almost (re:almost) no indoctrination in their systems, and they are normally open, democratic and free. Mainstream religion would probably score lower than communism in practice, since there are very strong similarities between them as far as rituals and indoctrination goes, however in moderate Christianity and Islam (or any other major religion) the leaders are accountable to the people and generally behave in a transparent manner. Of course on the far end of the scale you get stuff like cults and Scientology or even some conspiracy theories.

The problem is that your defintion of religon can encompass anything.

Originally posted by Alfheim
What so a ruler is a god now is it? When we debate proof of God in the religon forum we are debating proof of a ruler?

The problem is that your defintion of religon can encompass anything.

Originally posted by Alfheim

The problem is that your defintion of religon can encompass anything.

no, my definition of ideology can encompass anything

I see no reason to distinguish between religion and ideology

Originally posted by lord xyz
Well, if God isn't the ruler of us, what is he?

logical fallacy. You are starting with a conclusion and not stating your premise.

God is the ruler, as he is stated in religious context -- someone we must follow, abide by, obey, etc.

He/she is the one being in which we are all a custom to, who we are all inferior to. Denying this is blasphemy. This is how God is shown. I interperate God as this ruler. If God is not, than what?

Originally posted by lord xyz
I interperate God as this ruler.

excellent, you stated your premise

Originally posted by lord xyz
God is the ruler, as he is stated in religious context -- someone we must follow, abide by, obey, etc.

He/she is the one being in which we are all a custom to, who we are all inferior to. Denying this is blasphemy. This is how God is shown.

still starting with a conclusion

Originally posted by lord xyz
If God is not, than what?

If not god than who is the ultimate one supreme lord and ruler of the universe....

well, thats a logical fallacy called a tautology.

Religion and Communism are opposing ideologys and as such cannot exist together (as communism seeks to remove all opposing idology)

seems to work fine in cuba

Buddhism, as far as I know, was the official religion of Maoist China.

It’s not the ideologies that vie for prosperity, it is conflict between two establishments (church v state) for control of the cognition of the people.

It is not that communism is athiest, just that it needs to have full control of all facets of a person's life.

Originally posted by inamilist
excellent, you stated your premise

still starting with a conclusion

If not god than who is the ultimate one supreme lord and ruler of the universe....

well, thats a logical fallacy called a tautology.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Right thats Carl Marx right? So that implies that one of the principles of Communism is that atheism is a good thing?

The Soviet Union banned organised religion to stop opposition. I don't know if it's a communist thing or just a Soviet thing. A bit weird since in the 1980's the pope, who is head of the Catholic church, was Polish - a Soviet state at the time.

Originally posted by JacopeX
They disallow all religions by having every person to not practice religion. During the timeso f stalin however, they took the rights of every human, so of course atheism was supported at the time.

Yeah of course but some idiot was telling that its illogical to use Communism as an example of Atheism.

As others have said, in a Communistic society, the state is above all else. Religion is a higher-order to most followers/believers, so obviously they would take God's Law over Man's. Questioning of Man's Law isn't tolerated.

The two ideologies conflict and therefore religion must be stamped out.

This isn't the reason Marx gave for his advocation of atheism, but it's the way it usually pans out.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with religion in a communist society. It is hard to combine both but communism imo doesn't exclude religion automatically. As many people have already said this was what happened in most countries, but then again I don't think there is any true communist country in this world.

What Marx said about religion and opium has to be seen in its context and in that context only.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok im not sure what to say about this, but this is a thread to discuss Communsim and Athesim.

Well I guess the question is can Communism considered to be an atheistic system?

P.S. I dont have an opinion on this at the moment I want to hear what others have to say.

In short yes. But that doesn't mean that the state can't have it's own religion. Like the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association (which was basically pro-communism) was an attempt to oversee/rule/thwart the Catholic Church in China. In short, communism has no problem with religion, as long as said religion worships the state.

I vote libertarian.

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Originally posted by lord xyz
There is no ruler. Every being is responcible only to themself, and their children.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Right thats Carl Marx right? So that implies that one of the principles of Communism is that atheism is a good thing?

Marxism is no religion. Communism is kinda like "dictated socialism". And I quote that because that's my way of describing it.