Originally posted by DigiMark007
I cringe a little every time I see this thread.The two aren't linked, even though some like citing a few historical incidents in which they were. I hope to God (pun intended) no one in this thread is arguing otherwise, but I'm not going to look because it's not something I really want to debate.
In light of historic examples its stupid so say they're not linked, they oh so clearly are.
Originally posted by lord xyz
Actually, theism is a religion according to google.
Originally posted by Storm
Theism isn' t a religion, faith or belief by itself. Theism is nothing more than a belief in the existence of at least one god. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. are examples of theistic religions.
I see what you're saying but again that seems just one way of looking at it. I dont know if google really says that.....but if google says its a religon from a credible source then thats another opinion. 😐
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
In light of historic examples its stupid so say they're not linked, they oh so clearly are.
Oh, right. So Christianity and capitalism are clearly linked because the vast majority of our Presidents have been Christian. And I suppose an atheist President's skin would burn when he touches a free market economy.
🙄
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Oh, right. So Christianity and capitalism are clearly linked because the vast majority of our Presidents have been Christian. And I suppose an atheist President's skin would burn when he touches a free market economy.🙄
No because most capitalists are Jewish. 😐
I think Marx makes it clear.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
No because most capitalists are Jewish. 😐I think Marx makes it clear.
Marx makes what clear? That you're willing to accept 1 case study as a truism because it matches with your personal prejudices? If that wasn't horribly tragic and borderline bigoted, I'd laugh.
Also, nothing is mostly Jewish. They account for a ridiculously small percent of the world's population.
I think your playing on technicalities. Ideologically communism might be independent from atheism but they truth of the matter is they usually come together, therefore are linked.
I could say violence is not linked to Christianity as after all Christ forbids it. However, we both know that Christians can be violent and they are therefore linked.
I'm sure you can get Communists who aren't atheist and Christians who aren't violent however, that doesnt mean they aren't linked- even if only a small sense.
Ok, but my point is the former argument, that they aren't ideologically connected to one another, even if there's a couple historical precedents for it.
I'm atheist and about as far from communism as one can get without advocating outright anarchy. And I'm 1 person, just like Marx or any other. I'll happily admit that in those few instances, they may be "linked" but the term seems to imply that they are more likely to be found together, or that one leads to another, which is false.
Hitler wasn't atheist, btw...I don't know if he's been trotted out in this thread yet or not, but throughout his life he could be found justifying his hatred of the Jews in his speeches through quotations of Christian scripture.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I think your playing on technicalities. Ideologically communism might be independent from atheism but they truth of the matter is they usually come together, therefore are linked.I could say violence is not linked to Christianity as after all Christ forbids it. However, we both know that Christians can be violent and they are therefore linked.
I'm sure you can get Communists who aren't atheist and Christians who aren't violent however, that doesnt mean they aren't linked- even if only a small sense.
Just because they're linked doesn't mean they're part of one another.
Well, I think I have a few things to add to this discussion.
First of all, I believe people are misstating Marxism.
Marxism is nothing more than a way to analyze history in order to make predictions about the future.
Marx NEVER endorsed Communism or socialism. He actually never endorsed or condemned ANY governmental system at all!
What he wrote was simply predictions, the Communist Manifesto was simply a prediction. It was him saying "Based on this historical perspective, and how society as a whole works, this is how things are going to be."
And he was kind of right, there were many worker revolutions, the first starting in Paris and the creation of the Paris Commune. But he did not predict that the major nations would band together to suppress the revolutions.
His famous phrase about religion being the opiate of the masses is him saying that every social establishments breeds a certain sort of ideology in order to get the masses to continue to work under the owners rule. This could be expressed through state sponsored religion (from which the famous phrase is derived) or any other sort of propaganda based ideology.
But the main thing to remember about Marx is that his books are only about interpreting history. His concepts is that the economy and technology drives everything about a society including who runs it, and how and even the sort of things that the society believes in. (All of this was written as a counter to the philosopher Hagel, but if you are reading this and nodding, you probably already knew that.)
Anyway. Marx's only real purpose is to document history, and attempt to predict in what direction society is going to move in. Its actually incredibly interesting if you lose the common dogma that Marx supports socialism and causes the Red Scourge and all of the conspiracy bullshit.
Marx says nothing about human nature or idealistic conditions or proper society, merely "this is how it is. This is how it was. And this is how it is going to be."
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Ok, but my point is the former argument, that they aren't ideologically connected to one another, even if there's a couple historical precedents for it.I'm atheist and about as far from communism as one can get without advocating outright anarchy. And I'm 1 person, just like Marx or any other. I'll happily admit that in those few instances, they may be "linked" but the term seems to imply that they are more likely to be found together, or that one leads to another, which is false.
Hitler wasn't atheist, btw...I don't know if he's been trotted out in this thread yet or not, but throughout his life he could be found justifying his hatred of the Jews in his speeches through quotations of Christian scripture.
Yes I understand and agree with your argument, I was just pointing out that they are linked and it isn't really fair to say they aren't. It might just be a historical link but a link all the same...also
Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class Lenin
So you can see why it would be assumed Communism and Atheism are linked.
As for Hitler, you are correct to say he wasn't atheist but he certainly wasn't a Christian. Hitler had his Aryan belief system and was quite positive that God was a whiteman on his side...he also bought into Occultism and aliens and Atlantis but thats more Himmler's area. So, yes Hitler quoted Bible verses to justify his attack on the Jews, but lets remember he was a politician in a vastly Christian country so it is obvious that he would use Christianity to his advantage- however it was made clear that in the long run the message of Christ would have to go...all that love thy neighbour stuff had no place in the Third Reich. I think it was Hess who lamented Germany not being an Islamic country for it would have been easier for them to stir the population to war...Borman however was an atheist and often attacked the Christian religion- which upset Catholic Goebbels who wanted to keep the Christians on side...
So basically Hitler was going to try to gain the support of Christians in order to purely avoid another problem...look at how he played the Catholic Church in Austria leading up to the Anschluss ...
We should also remember Hitler wanted rid of the Jews not because he held them responsible for killing Jesus but because according to the likes of Chamberlain or Nietzsche they were a sub-human race trying to take over the world...(I don't know if that was Nietzsche's view but his atheist ideals certainly lay the foundations for Hitler's eugenics program.)
So Hitler wasn't but was an atheist...he certainly believed in a supernatural world of Vikings and Blonde people...but he summed Christianity up as "deplorable mumbo jumbo"
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
As for Hitler, you are correct to say he wasn't atheist but he certainly wasn't a Christian. Hitler had his Aryan belief system and was quite positive that God was a whiteman on his side...he also bought into Occultism and aliens and Atlantis but thats more Himmler's area. So, yes Hitler quoted Bible verses to justify his attack on the Jews, but lets remember he was a politician in a vastly Christian country so it is obvious that he would use Christianity to his advantage- however it was made clear that in the long run the message of Christ would have to go...all that love thy neighbour stuff had no place in the Third Reich. I think it was Hess who lamented Germany not being an Islamic country for it would have been easier for them to stir the population to war...Borman however was an atheist and often attacked the Christian religion- which upset Catholic Goebbels who wanted to keep the Christians on side...So basically Hitler was going to try to gain the support of Christians in order to purely avoid another problem...look at how he played the Catholic Church in Austria leading up to the Anschluss ...
[ . . . ]
So Hitler wasn't but was an atheist...he certainly believed in a supernatural world of Vikings and Blonde people...but he summed Christianity up as "deplorable mumbo jumbo"
The fact that he wasn't really a Christian doesn't matter. It's just that he wasn't an athiest.
BTW: how did this get to Hitler? (considering he wasn't a communist)
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
We should also remember Hitler wanted rid of the Jews not because he held them responsible for killing Jesus but because according to the likes of Chamberlain or Nietzsche they were a sub-human race trying to take over the world...(I don't know if that was Nietzsche's view but his atheist ideals certainly lay the foundations for Hitler's eugenics program.)
I thought Nietzche was more anti organized religion than atheist. When did he say the Jews were sub-human?
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Nietzche was very much atheist "God is dead, he remains dead and we killed him."
"What are these churches if not tombs and sepulchers of God?"
I always took that part as Nietzsche trying to say that religion separated man and god.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I never said he was anti-semitic, in fact I said I wasn't aware if he was...but he certainly bought into the eugenic idea.
My mistake.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Yes I understand and agree with your argument, I was just pointing out that they are linked and it isn't really fair to say they aren't. It might just be a historical link but a link all the same...also
But by that definition, any ideology could be linked to a religion, because we have vastly more historical incidents of Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc. in political roles than atheists. But the public generally ignores them because it's much more socially acceptable to say negative things about atheists. Any sort of persepctive on the situation will show you that this is true, and also that you're selectively interpreting the few examples that make your point, while ignoring the vast majority of others that don't.
Also, If you're trying to work Hitler around to being an atheist again, and using that to justify the "link" between atheism and communism, then you're a moron. Hopefully that's not the case. Say what you will about his perversion of Christianity, but that's all it was.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Digimark mentioned him, Nietzche was very much atheist "God is dead, he remains dead and we killed him." I never said he was anti-semitic, in fact I said I wasn't aware if he was...but he certainly bought into the eugenic idea.
The idea that God is dead was more a commentary on the ways of men and organized religion than positing an opinion on the presence (or lack thereof) of an omnipotent deity. A detailed analysis of any of his writings will reveal as much, since he was concerned with human action rather than spiritual philosophizing. In Nietzche's "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" the title character actually speaks of a divine creator that only dies out of pity for his creations. So even if we consider him atheist by these remarks (which is sketchy at best) we have to consider him a former agnostic because he admits a creator present at one point.
Nietzche's writings, after his death, were under the care of his sister, who was a Nazi sympathizer. She altered many of the original manuscripts and publications to subvert them to Nazi purposes. Organized anything, be it religious or political, Nietzche was strongly against, so saying his ideas were in any way anti-semitic or even hateful is very misleading.
His name is thrown about in all sorts of rumors and possibilities. It's a shame really, because he was a very interesting writer and the truthful history behind his life isn't nearly so incriminating as the rumors.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
But by that definition, any ideology could be linked to a religion, because we have vastly more historical incidents of Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc. in political roles than atheists. But the public generally ignores them because it's much more socially acceptable to say negative things about atheists. Any sort of persepctive on the situation will show you that this is true, and also that you're selectively interpreting the few examples that make your point, while ignoring the vast majority of others that don't.
Atheism doesn't create communism. Communism doesn't create Atheists. The two things however go hand in hand on many occasions because it's so much easier to rule when no god exists and no church can possibly have a higher authority then you.
That's the problem with churches, if people believe then the word of the church is more important then the word of the government. Making Communism a very hard system to keep in check, as most other systems for that matter. A perfect nation would be atheists, it wouldn't necessary be filled with communists, it could be any form of government. However a perfect communistic state would surely be filled with atheists.
Originally posted by Fishy
Atheism doesn't create communism. Communism doesn't create Atheists. The two things however go hand in hand on many occasions because it's so much easier to rule when no god exists and no church can possibly have a higher authority then you.That's the problem with churches, if people believe then the word of the church is more important then the word of the government. Making Communism a very hard system to keep in check, as most other systems for that matter. A perfect nation would be atheists, it wouldn't necessary be filled with communists, it could be any form of government. However a perfect communistic state would surely be filled with atheists.
Stalin disagreed. Admittedly he wasn't exactly the model Communist but he did use the Russian Orthodox Church to his benefit.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_GavYou very specifically said that Nietzsche thought Jews were sub-human.
Digimark mentioned him, Nietzche was very much atheist "God is dead, he remains dead and we killed him." I never said he was anti-semitic, in fact I said I wasn't aware if he was...but he certainly bought into the eugenic idea.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Stalin disagreed. Admittedly he wasn't exactly the model Communist but he did use the Russian Orthodox Church to his benefit.
Well you can always try to use the church to your advantage but I guess it would be easier if everyone would just be an atheist. Of course there is a difference between people being an atheist and people not going to church. As long as they still believe in God then you will still have problems.
Downside of all atheists would be that's it's harder to create a reason for morale values. But if the state suppresses dissidents hard enough then the threat of death might just be enough.