The starbrand is a paradox,it created itself
The starbrand comes from the New Universe
Quasar Brought it back after getting stuck in the New Universe,he was given the starbrand and used it to boost the quantum bands,he was to far from our universe(multiverse?)
The Quantum bands could not get him back
on their own,so he boosted his quantum jump with the starbrand
He thought it burned itself out upon reaching home, but actually he gave it to Kayla(girlfriend)
He also retained a portion of it which allowed him to come back to life and escape the white room (made by eon for his protectors of the universe)
He used it for a couple of issues untill he got his Quantum bands back
Originally posted by starlock
The starbrand is a paradox,it created itselfThe starbrand comes from the New Universe
Quasar Brought it back after getting stuck in the New Universe,he was given the starbrand and used it to boost the quantum bands,he was to far from our universe(multiverse?)
The Quantum bands could not get him back
on their own,so he boosted his quantum jump with the starbrandHe thought it burned itself out upon reaching home, but actually he gave it to Kayla(girlfriend)
He also retained a portion of it which allowed him to come back to life and escape the white room (made by eon for his protectors of the universe)He used it for a couple of issues untill he got his Quantum bands back
LT exists to judge. Granted powers by TOAA. No one has the responsibility LT has. I have always thought LT being God's son
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Nature of the Living Tribunal
Originally posted by Mr Master
LT has never been stated to manifest in portions of his Totality.In black and white,
NO M-body has ever been stated to manifest with a fraction of their power.
To the contrary:
There is only proof that M-bodies come with the Full Power of the Concept.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm
"[B]Anthro/Fractals
(m-bodies)can assume the Form of Non-Physical or Abstract beings,
these Forms have access to the Full Power of the Original Being"
That's my argument.[/b]
and mine is that they do not NECESSARILY possess that full power and more that they are not NECESSARILY the totality of any concept. the anomaly physical entity twice was destroyed but the concept remained behind. eternity manifested an mbody WITH its mbody. eternity's mbody was destroyed and reformed. eternity has admitted he was a visualization, and NOT the totality. i could even show a new scan of mephisto's mbody being destroyed and shortly after HE reformed as well. we've even see lt's OWN mbody scattered across dimensions.
but that's an old argument, and i know the excuses you use to contradict each case. but . . . just because you do not accept or believe these examples does not mean i've not shown them or that others may come to a different conclusion. 🙂
Well for the record,There is one LT in Omniverse and he exists in all Universes simultaneously.
If it were not the SAME exact LT in all Universes,
the term "simultaneously" would not be needed.
agreed. 👆
Anyhow, LT only does manifest when there is a Mystical Imbalance that threatens the Multiverse.And HOW often does that happen?
It's true LT is the Judge of the Omniverse, but HOW many times have you seen LT in another Multiverse carrying out his duties? 😕
how many comics out there have stories dedicated to beings/events that take PLACE in other multiverses?
So LT doesn't need to manifest everywhere because that's not taking place everywhere at once, heck it doesn't take place in 2 Places at once, atleast NOT On Panel or in a Bio.
so you're saying he's omnipresent yet cannot manifest in 2 places? or you believe it because it makes sense DESPITE the lack of on-panel evidence? like me.
What you said is not exactly what Marvel said. 🙁You're making your own theoretical assumption inspired by Marvel facts.
actually nothing i said in anyway contradicts anything that marvel says. one lt in all multiverses. i agree wholeheartedly. i see lt more as an umbrella concept that spans the omniverse. he puts parts of his supreme power in each manifested mbody within each multiverse. one over-arching entity that watches over the whole thing. what part of that contradicts what marvel says . . .?
According to Marvel the Hierarchy doesn't even exist Outside the 616 Multiverse.
and yet they say lt exits everywhere, so . . . what's that claim mean? your infamous scan saying he rules 'multiverses' would also contradict this.
With the exception of the Post-retcon Brothers and LT, there has Never been a depiction of any Sentient Concept Outside the 616 Multiverse.
except marvel says lt is in all multiverses, so . . . and you have your scan . . .
LT has Never ventured Outside the 616 Multiverse On Panel except for the time he held the Brothers in his hand, if even then, because he might of been able to materialized the Brothers into that Alternate Reality he was overseeing.
you've said the same thing 3 straight times. are you now saying YOU dont think lt exists throughout the omniverse?
So again,what you said is Plausible, but not definite,
i never once claimed it WAS definite. it's the way i understand lt based on what i've seen and read of him and mbodies in general. the thread's purpose is to allow for theories or interpretations of just what he is. simple bios (which you once frowned so much upon) are simply not sufficient -- as they so often are.
especially considering that we Never see LT carrying out his duties Outside the 616 Multiverse,
yet again? here too you seem to be impyling lt is strictly multiversal. that clearly contradicts your scan. but i wonder who has been saying that all along . . .?
so how can any of us know that Multiversal Imbalances are taking place Outside the Prime Multiverse? ("It's a game of numbers?" ... I'm not buying that)
it's not a game at all. if you believe marvel spoke truth about a truly infinite number of multiverses comprising the omniverse, it is a certainty that lt will need to manifest simultaneously at specific events. of course i can't show you, but it is axiomatic if you believe 2 things:
1. that lt IS omnipresent throughout the omniverse
2. that the omniverse really IS comprised of a truly infinite amount of multiverses.
if you take those 2 points as truths then it is a certainty he will need to manifest simultaneously -- whether it has, is or ever will be shown on panel. based on what marvel seems to say, i have no trouble accepting that idea.
I have most of the Comics that deal with Other Multiverses, there's only literally a few Titles, and the characters there are not as powerful as the over saturation of Universal destroyers in the 616 Multiverse. In fact, other than the Starbrand, I'd bet you can't find me any other significant powerhouse Out there.
perhaps, but again, i'm not sure what you're alluding to. and isn't the sword and amulet considered omniversal in power?
i'm not sure how this kind of spiralled into what it is. my idea of lt is a simple one:
he is an abstract that represents balance (not proven) throughout the multiverse/s and that balance is itself represented by lt's conceptual 'faces' which manifest in each universe. lt manifests as mbodies simultaneously throughout the multiverses of the omniverse. no mbody is the 'complete' lt. rather each is a representation is a singular entity (as marvel says) that watches over all. so when thanos absorbed lt in THE END, there were STILL lt's out in the other multiverses doing whatever those lt's do.
imo.
Proof of M-bodies levels of power?
In my opinon it is explained in Quasar #37
Anthromorpho tells Qusasar that"WE have a symbiotic relationship with the abstract beings.An exchange of energies"
If galactus has them and Quasar was offered one?
is every M-body the same? no i dont think so
Anthromorpho tells quasar"We give our newborns the finite beings to practice on,before they are allowed to manifest Abstract Beings,The skill and experience of the particular Manifester determines how well the entity is represented
Now if galactus has an m-body take his place at an event, does the M-bodiy have all of galactus's power?will the real Galactus be destroyed if the M-body is?
Quasar says" how much input does a being have with how they are represented?
Anthro says"it varies, as much as they want",
some entities have very specific requirements,others give us freer reign'
"Frequently we form the Manifestation-body to the mental image of the Beholder"
Abstacts have no body,the image comes from us
Anthromorpho also said"Certain powerfull Phyical Entities
also enlist our services so they may be able to put in an appearence somwhere without actually attending"
Maybe the Abstract has no vested energy in a M-body just in case of trouble?
Why is quasar offered a m-body? Why are they making a Galactus m-body in front of quasar?
Would They just stay in the Dimension of manifestation and control it? while in a matrix like upload where they cant move or act?
If at an event and attacked would the m-bodies do nothing but just look like what they represent?
would they be all of his power/soul/mind/etc
i think when an M-body is created,it is up to the Entity(abstract) to determine how much of anything it will conatain,and it is up to the M-bdies skill and experience that determines how well they are represented.
That means M-bodies of a Abstract or Finite Being vary in power
Nowhere is it stated that Abstacts must put their total essence into an M-body
Just my opinon
Originally posted by leonidas
and mine is that they do not NECESSARILY possess that full power and more that they are not NECESSARILY the totality of any concept.
Well then, we'll agree to disagree.
Originally posted by leonidas
the anomaly physical entity twice was destroyed but the concept remained behind.
The Anomaly is a special case, it's bio is different than all the other Abstracts, I told you this before and showed you too. It is the only Concept stated to be completely indestructible, perhaps it's name speaks for itself,
the "Anomaly" = like NO Other.
The Anomaly was only killed once by Maelstrom, the Concept remained but killing the M-body made the Sentience obselete and Maelstrom was able to usurp it's position.
The second time Anomaly was never killed, just defeated by Quasar by confusing Anomaly, the Anomaly M-body dissipated on it's own, no one killed it again.
Originally posted by leonidas
eternity manifested an mbody WITH its mbody.
You mean the artist's visualization of Eternity's/Infinity's Sentience being freed?
Originally posted by leonidas
eternity's mbody was destroyed and reformed.
You mean when Eternity himself said,
"indeed ... Nothing happened?"
Originally posted by leonidas
eternity has admitted he was a visualization, and NOT the totality.
Actually Eternity said,
"If this were not a visualization of my Totality"
So in fact it IS his Totality, but a visualization of it. (whatever that means)
Eternity was lying within that paragraph anyway, he said the IG would not affect him, after Thanos Owned him and became the actual Totality of the Universe.
Originally posted by leonidas
we've even see lt's OWN mbody scattered across dimensions.
I've never seen LT's M-body scattered across anything.
Reed's Canon only blasted the LT himself to another Dimension.
There was NO mention of his body being blown apart or scattered.
Originally posted by leonidas
but that's an old argument, and i know the excuses you use to contradict each case. but . . . just because you do not accept or believe these examples does not mean i've not shown them or that others may come to a different conclusion. 🙂
Fair enuff.
Originally posted by leonidas
how many comics out there have stories dedicated to beings/events that take PLACE in other multiverses?
Very few.
Originally posted by leonidas
so you're saying he's omnipresent yet cannot manifest in 2 places? or you believe it because it makes sense DESPITE the lack of on-panel evidence? like me.
He can manifest in 2 - 3 or more places I'm sure,
but in his Totality, where ever he does, IMO.
Originally posted by leonidas
actually nothing i said in anyway contradicts anything that marvel says. one lt in all multiverses. i agree wholeheartedly.
🙂
Originally posted by leonidas
i see lt more as an umbrella concept that spans the omniverse. he puts parts of his supreme power in each manifested mbody within each multiverse. one over-arching entity that watches over the whole thing. what part of that contradicts what marvel says . . .?
With the exception of the first sentence,
this whole paragraph contradicts Marvel and even adds theories to the facts.
According to Marvel there is one LT that simultaneously can manifest in every Universe,
NO mention of LT manifesting "parts of his power" ... (On Panel or in a Bio)
NO mention of some "over-arching entity that watches the whole thing"
(On Panel or in a Bio)
Originally posted by leonidas
and yet they say lt exits everywhere, so . . . what's that claim mean? your infamous scan saying he rules 'multiverses' would also contradict this.
No it does not,
there is NO Hierarchy outside the 616 Multiverse, period.
LT is the Judge of the Omniverse, but whatever his duty Outside the Prime Multiverse is, has nothing to do with Other Sentient Concepts, because according to Marvel there are none.
The Brothers, that's it.
Originally posted by leonidas
except marvel says lt is in all multiverses, so . . . and you have your scan
I'm not disputing that,
I'm just informing you that there are NO other Multi-Eternitys, or any of the lower Concepts Outside the 616 Multiverse.
Originally posted by leonidas
you've said the same thing 3 straight times. are you now saying YOU dont think lt exists throughout the omniverse?
I never said that, so how you figure that assessment?
What I said 3 times doesn't even remotely hint at that, especially when I clearly posted this:
Originally posted by Mr Master
With the exception of the Post-retcon Brothers and LT, there has Never been a depiction of any Sentient Concept Outside the 616 Multiverse.
Originally posted by leonidas
i never once claimed it WAS definite. it's the way i understand lt based on what i've seen and read of him and mbodies in general. the thread's purpose is to allow for theories or interpretations of just what he is.
Fair enuff.
Originally posted by leonidas
simple bios (which you once frowned so much upon) are simply not sufficient -- as they so often are.
Good thing I display On Panel PROOF and Bio's that back up my interpretation.
Making it sufficient.
Originally posted by leonidas
yet again? here too you seem to be impyling lt is strictly multiversal. that clearly contradicts your scan. but i wonder who has been saying that all along . . .?
You getting off track,
I reiterated my self in a way to dispute your claim that it was a 100% "Certainty" LT is dealing with Multiversal Imbalances Outside the 616 Multiverse,
and I was right, you will never be able to present proof of LT manifesting Outside the Prime Multiverse.
That was my contention.
Originally posted by leonidas
it's not a game at all. if you believe marvel spoke truth about a truly infinite number of multiverses comprising the omniverse, it is a certainty that lt will need to manifest simultaneously at specific events. of course i can't show you, but it is axiomatic if you believe 2 things:
1. that lt IS omnipresent throughout the omniverse
2. that the omniverse really IS comprised of a truly infinite amount of multiverses.
if you take those 2 points as truths then it is a certainty he will need to manifest simultaneously -- whether it has, is or ever will be shown on panel. based on what marvel seems to say, i have no trouble accepting that idea.
Again,
plausible,
definite?
Never.
Originally posted by leonidas
perhaps, but again, i'm not sure what you're alluding to. and isn't the sword and amulet considered omniversal in power?
And?
Otherworld is Outside the 616 Reality but within the Multiverse.
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not sure how this kind of spiralled into what it is. my idea of lt is a simple one:he is an abstract that represents balance (not proven) throughout the multiverse/s and that balance is itself represented by lt's conceptual 'faces' which manifest in each universe. lt manifests as mbodies simultaneously throughout the multiverses of the omniverse.
I agree.
Originally posted by leonidas
no mbody is the 'complete' lt. rather each is a representation is a singular entity (as marvel says) that watches over all. so when thanos absorbed lt in THE END, there were STILL lt's out in the other multiverses doing whatever those lt's do.imo.
I disagree.
Originally posted by Mr Master
You getting off track,I reiterated my self in a way to dispute your claim that it was a 100% "Certainty" LT is dealing with Multiversal Imbalances Outside the 616 Multiverse,
and I was right, you will never be able to present proof of LT manifesting Outside the Prime Multiverse.
That was my contention.
with no stories, it's kinda hard to get proof. i can't prove 2+2=4 outside the prime multiverse either, but i'd say it was. if it wasn't than there's no point in having any discussion about it. however, based on what we've SEEN of other multiverses -- new universe, ultraverse -- i see no reason to think 2+2 would NOT equal 4.
but i've no problem limiting lt to the prime multiverse since there is no evidence to speak of in terms of his appearances outside the multiverse. imo omnipresent also means he is present within each version of eternity within our multiverse.
all my above points still stand even within the frame of a multiverse and not an omniverse. ie -- even though thanos absorbed one lt mbody, there would still be other lt mbodies throughout our multiverse as well as the omniverse.
you disagree. others don't and others think something else entirely. makes the forum go round.
ps--you say my idea contradicts what marvel says. where does it say anywhere on panel that lt uses m-bodies? it doesn't -- at least not that i know of. it says ONE lt, not one mbody. yet we both came to the conclusion he DOES use mbodies based not on anything directly stated, but based on the notion he is an abstract and based on what we've seen and read. you accept 'one' theory, but reject another. that's fine, but don't sound like you are STRICTLY going by what on-panel proof says. unless you have on-panel proof that lt DOES use m-bodies . . .
Originally posted by leonidas
with no stories, it's kinda hard to get proof. i can't prove 2+2=4 outside the prime multiverse either, but i'd say it was. if it wasn't than there's no point in having any discussion about it. however, based on what we've SEEN of other multiverses -- new universe, ultraverse -- i see no reason to think 2+2 would NOT equal 4.
Actually in many places it's quite different indeed, especially outside the Multiverse, even more especially to the type of Life Forms the Living Tribunal deals with outside the Prime Multiverse.
Originally posted by leonidas
but i've no problem limiting lt to the prime multiverse since there is no evidence to speak of in terms of his appearances outside the multiverse.
I found something of interest, On Panel.
While Dr Strange is explaining the nature of the Multiverse, (or a "Cluster" of Universes) he tells us the Living Tribunal appears to life forms in,
"Other Shapes to Administer to Other Clusters" (Multiverses)
"Man's Universe (Multiverse) has it's own Infinite number of variants known as Alternate Universes, explored by the Watchers, (the Watchers explore the Multiverse)
All these variants share the same Three Spatial Dimensions and obey roughly the same Laws"
I also discovered On Panel,
that the Sentient Concepts in the 616 Multiverse exist No where else,
Outside the Multiverse the LT oversees Concepts that are inconceivable to Mankind, and they are Not anything like Eternity and the Abstracts in the Prime Multiverse, so the Bio was right about the 616 Hierarchy, it's the only one in the Omniverse.
"There are Universes whose number of Spatial Dimensions range between 2.7 etc and 6.2 etc, these all share a commonality of Concepts,
hence they are grouped into a Cluster, (a Multiverse)
Man's Cluster is One of the responsibilities of the Living Tribunal"
Here we are told there are Higher and Lower Universes within Other Multiverses with fewer Spatial Dimensions or more Spatial Dimensions that are,
"Truly different"
"even there Life exists, in Forms totally inconceivable to mankind"
"There the Living Tribunal takes Other Shapes
to Administer to Other Clusters" (Multiverses)
I skimmed through my entire collection of the New Universe series, LT didn't make a single appearance, there was never even a Universal threat, no being can destroy the Universe,
In the Ultraverse collection I found the Godwheel (which is a good thing) and Nemesis, nothing more that can potentially threaten the Universe.
I think these scans show us that LT operates Oustside the Multiverse Off Panel because he associates with life forms that cannot be placed in a story.
Heck, he doesn't even look like the LT Out there.
Originally posted by leonidas
imo omnipresent also means he is present within each version of eternity within our multiverse.
I agree.
And I agree that if LT were to manifest in multiple locations he would logically need more than one M-body, but IMO he still maintains all his power even in multiple simultaneous manifestations.
I believe it's the nature of the character, like the "God" comparison.
I didn't want to bring in that analogy, but we can't deny that LT is a spin off of the christian "God" ... to a point of course.
Originally posted by leonidas
all my above points still stand even within the frame of a multiverse and not an omniverse. ie -- even though thanos absorbed one lt mbody, there would still be other lt mbodies throughout our multiverse as well as the omniverse.you disagree. others don't and others think something else entirely. makes the forum go round.
Other agree too. 🙂
Originally posted by leonidas
ps--you say my idea contradicts what marvel says. where does it say anywhere on panel that lt uses m-bodies? it doesn't -- at least not that i know of.
The Bio states LT uses an M-body to manifest.
Originally posted by leonidas
it says ONE lt, not one mbody. yet we both came to the conclusion he DOES use mbodies based not on anything directly stated, but based on the notion he is an abstract and based on what we've seen and read. you accept 'one' theory, but reject another. that's fine, but don't sound like you are STRICTLY going by what on-panel proof says. unless you have on-panel proof that lt DOES use m-bodies . . .
Not On Panel proof ...but Proof nontheless.
This made me agree with you further about LT's Abstracthood.
(excerpt from the Official Handbook 2006)
"Abstract beings who have empolyed M-bodies include"
it's funny -- i looked through that very dr strange issue you scanned just yesterday! 😂
i didn't think there was really anything relevent in it though. it also had a rather . . . odd take on how everything was set up.
anyhow, i never said the bio was wrong about the hierarchy. clearly there is no eternity in the new universe or ultraverse so naturally the hierarchy is different. but the nature of the multiverse/s it/themselves was never the issue -- rather it was the infinite number of them REGARDLESS of their nature.
it's kinda cool lt appears different to different beings (galactus does the same) but, i'm still not too sure what your scans are showing/refuting/claiming. aside from showing a couple little tidbits others may not have seen/known about LT. 🙂
I agree.And I agree that if LT were to manifest in multiple locations he would logically need more than one M-body, but IMO he still maintains all his power even in multiple simultaneous manifestations.
I believe it's the nature of the character, like the "God" comparison.
I didn't want to bring in that analogy, but we can't deny that LT is a spin off of the christian "God" ... to a point of course.
that is a completely fair assessment and i don't think your analogy is necessarily incorrect. it's difficult to prove OR refute. you may well be right. logically it doesn't work but if you fall back on 'it's his nature as a unique being' it doesn't have to. 🙂 it's a totally fair stance to take. 🙂
i think in this case we agree a lot more than we disagree. as a being who is NOT omnipotent (but rather serves one who is) i still can't see how LT can be omnipresent and yet have each mbody composed of his 'total' power, but i can't say i don't like your stance on lt's nature which in your mind allows for it. 😉
