Its everywhere!!!!!!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are a blind fool and apparantly you have no real knowledge outside of what's been fed to you. For one, the laziness of calling it "rap" and painting all MCs with a single brush.

Nobody is denying the connotations, but that's all they are. There's no signficant connection.

You're being stupid making comments saying that hip hop isn't real music. Of course it's real music you fool.

Which is precisely why most "rap" fans think 50 Cent and Lloyd Banks are true hip hop, which is probably the people and music you are thinking of.

If you let TV tell you what to call things and who to look at as representatives of a genre, then you're being ignorant.

A crowd. There isn't a specific crowd of people it inspires.

Rapping is just an act, it's not a genre. The genre is hip hop which contains the act of rapping. Rap is an accepted term for the genre, I accept that you use it, but the fact that you seem to believe it's a CORRECT label suggests you don't know what you're on about.

You are wrong, though, in saying beats can't be music. As long as there is a human touch applied to the creation of music, that's what it will be. The fact that you think music can only exist if there's people playing instruments is retarded and archaic. If you went back to when music was first created and showed them an electric guitar, I'm sure they'd say about guitars what you are saying about electronically created beats.

So no, you holding that opinion does not bestow upon you some kind of magical barrier. You're wrong and you're illogical, it's not a matter of what you AREN'T saying, because what you ARE saying is false.

-AC

first off, i havent been fed anything. I have observed. The laziness you speak of. Is a personall choice to call Hip hop rap. I fully understand the difference, but refuse to dignify it by refering to rap as hip hop, because that would then be accepting hip hop as music. I do not see it that way. So the ignorance you speak of is a conscious educated opinion. I guess you failed to comprehend this through the many remarks i made explaining this. I fear however that we have gotten far off point here. We are not debating whether rap should be considered music.

I fail to see your point in saying connotaions surrounding rap are nothing more than connotations. These connotations are very serious in the world of rap. They give sensors, and anti music organizations ground to relate rap to gun crimes.

I dont let t.v tell me who to look at as representatives. I look at the most popular artists and producers that plague the genre. What you consider to be real hip hop may not be the artists giving it an acknowledged relevance.

there is no specific crowd that hip hop inspires? Wow, you must be the one who is blind. There is a distinct difference between fans of music genres. these groups of fans can catagorized into a crowd. Living in detroit and california, i have never met "gangstas" who listened to britney spears. All types of music find a crowd of people, or rather the people find the music as a way of expression. Art inspires people to do many things. Music being a form of art definently has inspired people to do a great deal of many things, both positive and negative. the same way literature can inspire. I am not trying to say that the inspirer is at fault however. The inspiration only stirred an already existing passion or emotion inside the person

A guitar is an instrument, and trying to compare it to an electric synthesizer is complete ignorance that does not even warrant debate. you cannot add new already created sounds to a guitar.

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Cut the musical ignorance dude

I think its musically ignorant to say that hip hop culture (not hip hop itself) has no negative impact on society.

Hip hop needs to get back to its roots of speaking for the unspoken and standing up. Artists AND Labels need to promote this.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I live in London too, but the fact remains that you're basing things purely on experience.

South London?????

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

No, you're just not supposed to assume that because you don't know any different, that your experiences are all there is.

Well if you listen carefully to what im saying its not just my experiences but its the facts and figures as well. If I get on the bus and hear black kids frequently saying this guy got shot AND they say on the news that gun crime is increasing its a double whammy

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

No, you can't deny proven statistics. What part do you not get?

Yeah because facts are disproven all the time, but at the dnf of they day figures say that gun crime is increasing.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Garage is an entirely different genre of music, Alf. It's nothing like hip hop, so that proves my point further.

Er no I dont think so somehow, thats maybe because there are different types of Garage but you dont have to be a genuis to see that some forms of Garage are influenced by hip hop...eg Lethal Bizzle his music may not be classified as rap but it obvoulsy is infulenced by it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I know most of London's well known "garage" acts personally or at least know OF them, and back in the day when garage was a sensation here, there was coincidentally a lot of people going around mugging other people. These people often had connections to, or were involved in, the UK garage culture.
That doesn't mean the music is to blame, it means they're bad people.

Yeah so why is it you can go to other music scenes and none that stuff happens?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

The fact is, the MUSIC isn't doing ANYTHING.

Rubbish.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

The culture that the people MAKING the music represent, might be a factor, but the music itself is not.

Do you want to analyse tthis statement. You do realise that the people making the music are going to heavily influence the music? Its like saying if you have dirt on your hand and try to make a cake that no dirt will get into it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

You prove theory with fact also.

Yeah and....sorry mate you still ahvent really grasped what I was trying to say...anyway nevermind.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Between the culture? Perhaps. Between the music?

Im sorry but now you're getting confused. You cant sepearte music from culture you do know my defintion music is part of what makes up culture.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

No. The music is a catalyst to promote the culture, the message IN the music causes idiots to go and do stuff,

Yeah and why is there that message in that music? Because these people rap about their life, they rap about their culture and they put it into the music. You cant seperate the two.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

but it's not the music's fault because there are people out there who listen to that same music and do nothing.

No that just proves that some people will have integrity not matter what.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

No, you're trying to say the music is, in some way, directly responsible. It's not. The culture, maybe.

See what I said above.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

A) You're confusing hip hop with garage.

Er no maybe you misunderstood me. Garage is a seperate form of music but you can see some forms of Garage are influenced by hip hop and have inherited the negativity as well.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

B) I'm telling you the culture is connected, not the music.

-AC

Absolute nonsense. Culture has a direct influence on music. Culture is about life and rappers tend to rap about their life.

You know what this remind me of. I was watching this program about Garage. According to this guy people where apprehensive to promote Garage events because everytime there was one trhey would wreck the place.....but at the sametime when people where being negative about the music he would complain that they were being picked on.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
first off, i havent been fed anything. I have observed. The laziness you speak of. Is a personall choice to call Hip hop rap. I fully understand the difference, but refuse to dignify it by refering to rap as hip hop, because that would then be accepting hip hop as music. I do not see it that way.

The fact is, hip hop is a music genre, it is music. I'm not sure why you believe you have the right to just ignore and deny that a type of music exists simply because you do not like it. That's pathetic.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
So the ignorance you speak of is a conscious educated opinion. I guess you failed to comprehend this through the many remarks i made explaining this. I fear however that we have gotten far off point here. We are not debating whether rap should be considered music.

Educated? You're attempting to say hip hop isn't music because you believe it's made on computers and therefore isn't music. Wrong for so many reasons. Some of which I'll explain later, but one I'll share with you now; You think all hip hop is made WITHOUT instruments, and yet you call your opinion educated? No, you're very far from educated and even further from credible.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I fail to see your point in saying connotaions surrounding rap are nothing more than connotations. These connotations are very serious in the world of rap. They give sensors, and anti music organizations ground to relate rap to gun crimes.

So what? They can connect hip hop to gun crime all they like, the music isn't to blame. They connect Slipknot to Columbine, Manson to suicide, Prince to homosexuality.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I dont let t.v tell me who to look at as representatives. I look at the most popular artists and producers that plague the genre. What you consider to be real hip hop may not be the artists giving it an acknowledged relevance.

Precisely, you look at who TV and idiots have made popular and base your opinion on that purely because you lack the desire to research further. If you don't care about the genre, fine, that's up to you, but don't attempt to discredit it based on what you see when you've made no effort to do any further research. That's just ignorant.

Public Enemy, El-P, MF Doom, Cannibal Ox, Pharoahe Monch, Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five, The Cold Crush Bros, Kool Keith. These are hip hop artists, true hip hop artists. 50 Cent etc are not.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
there is no specific crowd that hip hop inspires? Wow, you must be the one who is blind. There is a distinct difference between fans of music genres. these groups of fans can catagorized into a crowd. Living in detroit and california, i have never met "gangstas" who listened to britney spears. All types of music find a crowd of people, or rather the people find the music as a way of expression. Art inspires people to do many things. Music being a form of art definently has inspired people to do a great deal of many things, both positive and negative. the same way literature can inspire. I am not trying to say that the inspirer is at fault however. The inspiration only stirred an already existing passion or emotion inside the person

Haha, so...hip hop inspires a specific crowd just because music genres attract different people? How generalising do you want to be here?

For one thing, I never said hip hop fans were the same as metal fans or rock fans, I was just saying that they do not necessarily attract typical crowds. You don't need to be a black man living in NYC to like hip hop, you don't need to be a blonde Norwegian to like metal. Hip hop appeals to all different people, especially real hip hop.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
A guitar is an instrument, and trying to compare it to an electric synthesizer is complete ignorance that does not even warrant debate. you cannot add new already created sounds to a guitar.

You're suggesting synthesizers aren't instruments now? What a mug. Of course they are. You'll be saying keyboards aren't instruments next.

Aphex Twin isn't music? Aphex Twin is more computer based than any hip hop and yet Richard D. James is regarded as one of the most pioneering figures in music. You obviously believe that if it's not made with guitar, drums or bass, it's not music and it's not an instrument.

"Educated opinion." Hahaha.

-AC

Originally posted by Alfheim
South London?????

East.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well if you listen carefully to what im saying its not just my experiences but its the facts and figures as well. If I get on the bus and hear black kids frequently saying this guy got shot AND they say on the news that gun crime is increasing its a double whammy

Yes, and that proves that it's your experience. If that's ALL you hear it doesn't mean that's all there is.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah because facts are disproven all the time, but at the dnf of they day figures say that gun crime is increasing.

Facts are never proven wrong, that's why they are facts, you fool.

Gun crime is increasing, that was never my argument.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er no I dont think so somehow, thats maybe because there are different types of Garage but you dont have to be a genuis to see that some forms of Garage are influenced by hip hop...eg Lethal Bizzle his music may not be classified as rap but it obvoulsy is infulenced by it.

You said hip hop is known as garage over here, not that it was influenced by it. UK hip hop and UK garage are two entirely different genres.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah so why is it you can go to other music scenes and none that stuff happens?

Excuse me, I believe I just saw you suggest that no other music genre has violent connotations.

There's this genre called black metal...maybe you should research it.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Rubbish.

It's not. CDs aren't killing people, music isn't killing people, it's not to blame for how idiots interpret it.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Do you want to analyse tthis statement. You do realise that the people making the music are going to heavily influence the music? Its like saying if you have dirt on your hand and try to make a cake that no dirt will get into it.

I'm not saying people can't put negative messages in music, I'm saying that the music isn't to blame for that, nor how someone interprets or acts on those messages.

If you go and shoot someone cos an MC said so, it's not the music's fault, it's yours for being an idiot.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah and....sorry mate you still ahvent really grasped what I was trying to say...anyway nevermind.

I have, it's just dumb, like everything else you've said.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Im sorry but now you're getting confused. You cant sepearte music from culture you do know my defintion music is part of what makes up culture.

Your definition of music counts for shit against the real definition of music, and its involvement in what you are trying to pin on it. Sorry.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah and why is there that message in that music? Because these people rap about their life, they rap about their culture and they put it into the music. You cant seperate the two.

Yes, you can. People live that life even if they don't listen to hip hop or garage or anything like that.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No that just proves that some people will have integrity not matter what.

It proves that music cannot make people do things, people do things of their own accord. No song can make you shoot someone. You listen to the song and decide to shoot someone as a result, it's not making you do it, the will to kill was there beforehand.

Originally posted by Alfheim
See what I said above.

Dusted.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er no maybe you misunderstood me. Garage is a seperate form of music but you can see some forms of Garage are influenced by hip hop and have inherited the negativity as well.

How is that relevant? You said: "most of them listen to hip hop...or garage as we call it in the Uk". We don't call garage, hip hop. Garage is garage, hip hop is hip hop.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Absolute nonsense. Culture has a direct influence on music. Culture is about life and rappers tend to rap about their life.

Yes, but the music itself isn't actually doing anything.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
There's this genre called black metal...maybe you should research it.

-AC

I'm trying to avoid reading this thread, but skimming it I did see a shout out for black metal, and it reminded me of when I was 13 years old and listening to Venom - the creators and masters of black metal. Ah, the memories.

Here's the website in case anyone wants to do some research:

http://www.venomslegions.com/

Originally posted by botankus
I'm trying to avoid reading this thread, but skimming it I did see a shout out for black metal, and it reminded me of when I was 13 years old and listening to Venom - the creators and masters of black metal. Ah, the memories.

Good band. I think Emperor are the masters of "black metal", although they incorporate more styles. Venom obviously started the genre and coined the phrase, though.

Anyway, that's even more off-topic.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The fact is, hip hop is a music genre, it is music. I'm not sure why you believe you have the right to just ignore and deny that a type of music exists simply because you do not like it. That's pathetic.

Educated? You're attempting to say hip hop isn't music because you believe it's made on computers and therefore isn't music. Wrong for so many reasons. Some of which I'll explain later, but one I'll share with you now; You think all hip hop is made WITHOUT instruments, and yet you call your opinion educated? No, you're very far from educated and even further from credible.

So what? They can connect hip hop to gun crime all they like, the music isn't to blame. They connect Slipknot to Columbine, Manson to suicide, Prince to homosexuality.

Precisely, you look at who TV and idiots have made popular and base your opinion on that purely because you lack the desire to research further. If you don't care about the genre, fine, that's up to you, but don't attempt to discredit it based on what you see when you've made no effort to do any further research. That's just ignorant.

Public Enemy, El-P, MF Doom, Cannibal Ox, Pharoahe Monch, Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five, The Cold Crush Bros, Kool Keith. These are hip hop artists, true hip hop artists. 50 Cent etc are not.

Haha, so...hip hop inspires a specific crowd just because music genres attract different people? How generalising do you want to be here?

For one thing, I never said hip hop fans were the same as metal fans or rock fans, I was just saying that they do not necessarily attract typical crowds. You don't need to be a black man living in NYC to like hip hop, you don't need to be a blonde norwegian to like metal. Hip hop appeals to all different people, especially real hip hop.

You're suggesting synthesizers aren't instruments now? What a mug. Of course they are. You'll be saying keyboards aren't instruments next.

Aphex Twin isn't music? Aphex Twin is more computer based than any hip hop and yet Richard D. James is regarded as one of the most pioneering figures in music. You obviously believe that if it's not made with guitar, drums or bass, it's not music and it's not an instrument.

"Educated opinion." Hahaha.

-AC

i think you have gravely misdirected my points into an offensive attack

If you would have gotten my points you would have understood that i acknowledge hip hop as being music, just refuse to call it that because i despise it. this is more of humorous action on my part than anything. If you seriously want to challenge musical awarness and education then we can do that. I have no problem educating an arogant rap fan boy, in music theory. That was just a joke, just thought you would appreciate the assumed personal characteristic, seeing how you were the one who started throwing around termas like ignorant and blind. When i was trying agree with your views. We just got lost in the debate of opinions.

i know very well that many progressive hip hop artists try to incoorperate intruments into their "music" in hopes to give their genre credibility. Fact of the matter is, most of mainstream rap is nothing more than beats derived from a sound board

I was agreeing with you about the negative connotations. No where did i say that they give creedence to the argument that rap is to blame for a rise in gun crimes. however, they still give the people who believe that rap is to blame relevance. Just like any other music, just like death metal and hate crimes, rock and anarchy loving teens, pop and the sudden infatuation with self image.

and yes, rap does inspire a specific crowd. Just as all music inspires the specific crowds that they attract. Country is not going to give me any kind of artistic inspiration because it does not appeal to me. Music is art, and art inspires people, the group of people that it attracts.
just as movies, literature and all forms of art inspire. How is this generalising? Do you deny this to be true? Rap inspires the community it attracts just as rock tends to inspire me, i am apart of a crowd, the rock crowd.
Yes, it's true that you dont have to be apart of certain crowd to enjoy rap, but denying that their are certain groups of people it attracts, to me is not accepting a fact.

I completely understand that mainstream music can be very different than the secondary market, but is it not true that the mainstream is what dictates a certain music genre's image? By observing the current artists who top the charts in rock, you can get a general idea of the type of image that it projects on it's listeners.

No, i dont consider a synthesizer an instrument. I have very different standard of what an instrument is than most people. When you go to a renowned music school to major in music, a synthesizer is no where in the curriculum or required playing.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
i think you have gravely misdirected my points into an offensive attack

I find your ignorance and presumptuous nature gravely offensive. Whether or not you intended to offend, it would appear not.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
If you would have gotten my points you would have understood that i acknowledge hip hop as being music, just refuse to call it that because i despise it. this is more of humorous action on my part than anything. If you seriously want to challenge musical awarness and education then we can do that. I have no problem educating an arogant rap fan boy, in music theory. That was just a joke, just thought you would appreciate the assumed personal characteristic, seeing how you were the one who started throwing around termas like ignorant and blind. When i was trying agree with your views. We just got lost in the debate of opinions.

Then your "humourous" action is still ignorant, but at leasy you acknowledge it.

Arrogant "rap" fanboy? You're genuinely funny. I like some hip hop, I don't dedicate myself to any one genre because there's no point. I'm a music fan, not a genre fan. To assume you of all people could educate ME on MUSIC, that in itself is funny. Especially coming from Mr. Synths aren't instruments.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
i know very well that many progressive hip hop artists try to incoorperate intruments into their "music" in hopes to give their genre credibility. Fact of the matter is, most of mainstream rap is nothing more than beats derived from a sound board.

Which is precisely why mainstream hip hop is entirely shit and pathetic, and why I suggested you do a bit more research than branding the ENTIRE genre because you're a lazy idiot.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I was agreeing with you about the negative connotations. No where did i say that they give creedence to the argument that rap is to blame for a rise in gun crimes. however, they still give the people who believe that rap is to blame relevance. Just like any other music, just like death metal and hate crimes, rock and anarchy loving teens, pop and the sudden infatuation with self image.

Yeah, and the people who make those connections are fools.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
and yes, rap does inspire a specific crowd. Just as all music inspires the specific crowds that they attract. Country is not going to give me any kind of artistic inspiration because it does not appeal to me. Music is art, and art inspires people, the group of people that it attracts.
just as movies, literature and all forms of art inspire. How is this generalising? Do you deny this to be true? Rap inspires the community it attracts just as rock tends to inspire me, i am apart of a crowd, the rock crowd.

Hip hop music inspires me because I like the music. I don't buy music to relate to lyrics, if that's what you're talking about. A majority of the black community in areas such as Los Angeles could relate to N.W.A etc because their LYRICS referred to common ground, either from a participant or spectator point of view. The MUSIC doesn't specifically refer to anything, and therefore draws far less of a specific crowd than the lyricism does.

Tool probably have a lot of fans who enjoy the occult, ritual magick or spirituality because it's dealt with in some of the lyrics, but that doesn't mean their music attracts those people, because their music is just...their music.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Yes, it's true that you dont have to be apart of certain crowd to enjoy rap, but denying that their are certain groups of people it attracts, to me is not accepting a fact.

I'm not denying that, I'm denying that the MUSIC ITSELF attracts some specific group of people.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I completely understand that mainstream music can be very different than the secondary market, but is it not true that the mainstream is what dictates a certain music genre's image? By observing the current artists who top the charts in rock, you can get a general idea of the type of image that it projects on it's listeners.

If that's the area you are focusing on, mainstream, then judge mainstream fans and people who love only mainstream music, and don't judge any other kind of music.

Judging rock music based on a Nickleback song is dumb, isn't it? Judging metal based on...I don't know...any shit mainstream metal band, is dumb. Because that's usually very far from what's true in the alleged genre. You get the odd exception; Foo Fighters being a rock band in one of the truest forms, like Queen. That doesn't mean all rock is how you see it.

That's just part of human arrogance; "There's nothing I can possibly be unaware of.". I get what you're saying; By looking at 50 Cent etc, you get an idea of what image it is presenting entirely independent of the music, but my point is, don't judge the genre based on those bastardising it. That's not "educated".

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
No, i dont consider a synthesizer an instrument. I have very different standard of what an instrument is than most people. When you go to a renowned music school to major in music, a synthesizer is no where in the curriculum or required playing.

Quite easily one of the single most unbelievable statements I've read on this site.

The reason it's not usually taught is because in comparison, it's a newer instrument. Synths, keyboards, they all come from piano. Eddie Van Halen, one of the greatest guitarists ever, considers synth an instrument.

The reason it's called synth is because it comes from the word "synthetic", as in artificial. The sound is artificial in that it isn't traditionally produced, but it's still a musical instrument. Just not a traditional one.

Music "schools" are just about the biggest travesty in music. Music isn't about staring at one part of the picture so much that you miss the bigger painting, which is exactly what music school has done to you. Aphex Twin is more creative than anything Avenged Sevenfold have come up with, and their guitarist has a degree in music. Richard D. James has nothing, and most of it is done on a computer. Yet he receives more critical acclaim for innovation and perception from the world musical community than most of the traditional bands you see today.

Then there's some music school pretentia-boy that'd say he's not a musician or that he doesn't use instruments.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
East.

Good for you.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yes, and that proves that it's your experience. If that's ALL you hear it doesn't mean that's all there is.

Yes but if you see what else I said...its my experiences AND the figures.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Facts are never proven wrong, that's why they are facts, you fool.

Oh ok so something that was previoulsy a fact has never been proven wrong.....whats that? Yeah I thought as much.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

You said hip hop is known as garage over here, not that it was influenced by it. UK hip hop and UK garage are two entirely different genres.

My bad.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Excuse me, I believe I just saw you suggest that no other music genre has violent connotations.

Not exactly was I was saying is that I dont know of any other scenes that have as much violence actualy happening in their scene as much as hip hop...or garage...which to me is just another form of hip hop because of the influence.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

There's this genre called black metal...maybe you should research it.

Er dont need to know I know about Mayhem and all that...I am primarly concerned with London because I live here. I dont live in Norway and yeah there is actually violence in the black metal scene. So that proves my point that sometimes lyrics can have an affect on peoples attitude.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

It's not. CDs aren't killing people, music isn't killing people, it's not to blame for how idiots interpret it.

Do you want to answer why is it there alot of violence which happens around hip hop?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I'm not saying people can't put negative messages in music, I'm saying that the music isn't to blame for that, nor how someone interprets or acts on those messages.

If you go and shoot someone cos an MC said so, it's not the music's fault, it's yours for being an idiot.

I know. The fcat of the matter is alot of hip hop and garage has alot stuff associated with guns and violence in the lyrics....but despite this gun crime is growing amongst the black youth. Its not a coincedence

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I have, it's just dumb, like everything else you've said.

No you haven't.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Your definition of music counts for shit against the real definition of music, and its involvement in what you are trying to pin on it. Sorry.

If you dont know that music come under the defintion of culture then I cant help you. You're talking about facts anybody who knows what he talking about knows that music comes under the defintion of culture you are just ignorant.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yes, you can. People live that life even if they don't listen to hip hop or garage or anything like that.

Bro alot of serial killers experienced alot of abuse when they were younger, so you can see that one of the factors that can make somebody evil is abuse. Of course some people experience abuse but dont become twisted that doesnt mean that abuse isnt a factor that CAN make a person evil.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

It proves that music cannot make people do things, people do things of their own accord. No song can make you shoot someone. You listen to the song and decide to shoot someone as a result, it's not making you do it, the will to kill was there beforehand.

Well its like this the root cause is the breakdown of the family. Your right the music doesnt make them do anything. Its the fact that these kids dont live in a stable envinronment and dont have any role models. They look for role models and the problem is that the role models that they have are negative..

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

How is that relevant? You said: "most of them listen to hip hop...or garage as we call it in the Uk". We don't call garage, hip hop. Garage is garage, hip hop is hip hop.

the point is that they're a similar.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yes, but the music itself isn't actually doing anything.

-AC

Yeah but I dont understand. You have music with guns and crime but around this scene there is alof of guns and crime.

I repeat music is not the root cause of gun crime, its also the envinronment that these people are living in...what im saying is that the envinroment plus the music encourages them to pick up the guns.

To deny that the music has no influence whatsoever is to be in denial.

Furthermore some of thes people that are getting into guns are really young. Are you trying to tell me that if you're really young and you're surrounded by music that glorifies gun crime that its not going to influence you?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but if you see what else I said...its my experiences AND the figures.

You're missing the point.

Is gun crime increasing? Yes. Is gun crime in the black community increasing (London)? Yes. Has it been discovered that the criminals listen to a certain kind of music? Yes.

What you fail to see is that the MUSIC itself, the sounds, that is not what is making them do it. The LYRICS aren't even making them do it. The lyrics talk about topics, it's then entirely the person's responsibility how they deal with that.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh ok so something that was previoulsy a fact has never been proven wrong.....whats that? Yeah I thought as much.

A fact is an undeniable truth. E.g: The Earth is round, the Sun is hot.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Not exactly was I was saying is that I dont know of any other scenes that have as much violence actualy happening in their scene as much as hip hop...or garage...which to me is just another form of hip hop because of the influence.

Well A) You're wrong.

B) That's wrong also. It's not another form of hip hop just because of the influence, it's an entirely different music genre.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er dont need to know I know about Mayhem and all that...I am primarly concerned with London because I live here. I dont live in Norway and yeah there is actually violence in the black metal scene. So that proves my point that sometimes lyrics can have an affect on peoples attitude.

It wasn't the lyrics that did it, that's my point. It was nutcases with violent beliefs that USED lyrics referencing them and idiots either went out and did the same or just enjoyed the music. The music itself didn't do anything. Lyrics CAN have an effect on attitude, but that's because of the attitude, not the lyrics.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Do you want to answer why is it there alot of violence which happens around hip hop?

Because the culture from which some of its participants hail from happens to be a bit of a violent culture. The mindset comes first, then comes the act....or not. It's a choice.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I know. The fcat of the matter is alot of hip hop and garage has alot stuff associated with guns and violence in the lyrics....but despite this gun crime is growing amongst the black youth. Its not a coincedence

It's a coincidence that they listen to it, yes. If someone says "Garage lyrics made me do it.", they're an idiot. They didn't make you do anything.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No you haven't.

Tell yourself that if it makes you feel better.

Originally posted by Alfheim
If you dont know that music come under the defintion of culture then I cant help you. You're talking about facts anybody who knows what he talking about knows that music comes under the defintion of culture you are just ignorant.

Music can be part of culture, or culture can stem from music. E.g: The second wave of black metal (The wave seen as when it first became it's own, distinctive genre) came because of a violent culture. Whereas straight edge mentality/culture came out of music, a song, actually. It can work both ways.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Bro alot of serial killers experienced alot of abuse when they were younger, so you can see that one of the factors that can make somebody evil is abuse. Of course some people experience abuse but dont become twisted that doesnt mean that abuse isnt a factor that CAN make a person evil.

"Evil" is a choice. Abuse doesn't inherently make someone evil, you either choose to move on or you choose to act on its effects in a negative way. It's a choice.

If lyrics make you hate someone or something, that's bad, but you acting upon it is a choice. You can't control how something makes you feel, but you can control how you deal with those feelings.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well its like this the root cause is the breakdown of the family. Your right the music doesnt make them do anything. Its the fact that these kids dont live in a stable envinronment and dont have any role models. They look for role models and the problem is that the role models that they have are negative.

You're putting the cart before the horse again.

Bad kids like bad role models because they want to do bad things. When I was young and my cousin played N.W.A records or Wu Tang Clan records, I looked up to them as pioneering musical figures at the time, I didn't become a bad kid cos they spoke about the odd bad subject. Bad kids like bad things.

Originally posted by Alfheim
the point is that they're a similar.

Not really.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but I dont understand. You have music with guns and crime but around this scene there is alof of guns and crime.

Yes, bad people are attracted to bad ideals. The point is, the bad is already there first, music doesn't make it happen, as I said two quotes above.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I repeat music is not the root cause of gun crime, its also the envinronment that these people are living in...what im saying is that the envinroment plus the music encourages them to pick up the guns.

The capacity to do bad is already there, is my point.

Originally posted by Alfheim
To deny that the music has no influence whatsoever is to be in denial.

Who said that? Not me.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermore some of thes people that are getting into guns are really young. Are you trying to tell me that if you're really young and you're surrounded by music that glorifies gun crime that its not going to influence you?

Hence why I said it's stupid. Once you're 12 or older, you're old enough to know right from wrong (Or you should.) and in my eyes, you don't get off the hook because you "Don't know better.".

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're missing the point.

Is gun crime increasing? Yes. Is gun crime in the black community increasing (London)? Yes. Has it been discovered that the criminals listen to a certain kind of music? Yes.

What you fail to see is that the MUSIC itself, the sounds, that is not what is making them do it. The LYRICS aren't even making them do it. The lyrics talk about topics, it's then entirely the person's responsibility how they deal with that.

I dont think I actually disagree with this.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

A fact is an undeniable truth. E.g: The Earth is round, the Sun is hot.

Yes im aware of that but at the end of the day there are some things that have been classified as facts and then disproven regardless of what you're defintion is. How did we get ont his anyway.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Well A) You're wrong.

If this is concerning violence in other scenes im refering mainly to london and especially south london. As far as I know other scenes in london dont have this problem.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

B) That's wrong also. It's not another form of hip hop just because of the influence, it's an entirely different music genre.

OK lethal bizzle has no similarity to hip hop does it?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

It wasn't the lyrics that did it, that's my point. It was nutcases with violent beliefs that USED lyrics referencing them and idiots either went out and did the same or just enjoyed the music. The music itself didn't do anything.

I'd totally agree with that

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Lyrics CAN have an effect on attitude, but that's because of the attitude, not the lyrics.

Come again.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Because the culture from which some of its participants hail from happens to be a bit of a violent culture. The mindset comes first, then comes the act....or not. It's a choice.

Anyway i wouldnt disagree with that anyway im getting tired.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

It's a coincidence that they listen to it, yes. If someone says "Garage lyrics made me do it.", they're an idiot. They didn't make you do anything.

No but it can be a factor, especally if you're in a certain envinronment.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Tell yourself that if it makes you feel better.

ok

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Music can be part of culture, or culture can stem from music. E.g: The second wave of black metal (The wave seen as when it first became it's own, distinctive genre) came because of a violent culture. Whereas straight edge mentality/culture came out of music, a song, actually. It can work both ways.

Er ok so if music stems from culture that that means its not part of that culture......its still part of the culture.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

"Evil" is a choice. Abuse doesn't inherently make someone evil, you either choose to move on or you choose to act on its effects in a negative way. It's a choice.

Yes but do you agree that violence can contribute to you being a violent person? This is what im saying...dont you think its easier to be positive if you are brought up in a positive envinroment? You admit that the lyrics in hip hop and garage can be negative dont you think if you have negative lyrics and a negative envinronment it can contribute?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

If lyrics make you hate someone or something, that's bad, but you acting upon it is a choice. You can't control how something makes you feel, but you can control how you deal with those feelings.

You're not telling me anything I dont know.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Bad kids like bad role models because they want to do bad things. When I was young and my cousin played N.W.A records or Wu Tang Clan records, I looked up to them as pioneering musical figures at the time, I didn't become a bad kid cos they spoke about the odd bad subject. Bad kids like bad things.

You're not telling me anything I dont know.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Not really.

Ok for example lethal bizzle doesnt sound anything like rap music? So sold crew doesnt sound anything like rap music.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yes, bad people are attracted to bad ideals. The point is, the bad is already there first, music doesn't make it happen, as I said two quotes above.

The capacity to do bad is already there, is my point.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Who said that? Not me.

Well whats the problem?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Hence why I said it's stupid. Once you're 12 or older, you're old enough to know right from wrong (Or you should.) and in my eyes, you don't get off the hook because you "Don't know better.".

-AC

Ok so when youre 12 you're mature now? Dont you think at 12 its alot easier to be influenced? You're trying to make out that all 12 year olds are very mature.

You might not have gun out and mugged people at 12 but im sure you've done some stuff at that age which you wouldnt do now.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes im aware of that but at the end of the day there are some things that have been classified as facts and then disproven regardless of what you're defintion is. How did we get ont his anyway.

Then they were never facts.

Originally posted by Alfheim
If this is concerning violence in other scenes im refering mainly to london and especially south london. As far as I know other scenes in london dont have this problem.

Precisely. As far as you know. It's experience, and you lack this.

Originally posted by Alfheim
OK lethal bizzle has no similarity to hip hop does it?

Not the original stuff he did, the original stuff he did was garage. When he tried to make hip hop, obviously it sounded more like mainstream hip hop. Everything he's done has been one thing, though; Shit.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Come again.

I worded that a bit unclear, sorry. What I meant was that lyrics can't create an attitude. The attitude is already there, if it's mirrored in the music then it's nothing more than an excuse.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Anyway i wouldnt disagree with that anyway im getting tired.

You were, which is why we're debating.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No but it can be a factor, especally if you're in a certain envinronment.

Yes, but you have to remember why it's a factor.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er ok so if music stems from culture that that means its not part of that culture......its still part of the culture.

Read it again. There are cultures that are born of music and music genres that are born out of a culture.

For example, the straight edge lifestyle was created by Ian Mackaye of Minor Threat in the song Straight Edge. The song wasn't part of the culture in general, it created a culture because of it's ideas. People who didn't even like the song happened to agree with what it was about. Therefore, straight edge culture wasn't necessarily full of people who liked straight edge musicians/music.

In the case of garage, it's opposite. Out of a culture, people started making that kind of music, modern garage anyway. So it comes back to it being an attitude first.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but do you agree that violence can contribute to you being a violent person? This is what im saying...dont you think its easier to be positive if you are brought up in a positive envinroment? You admit that the lyrics in hip hop and garage can be negative dont you think if you have negative lyrics and a negative envinronment it can contribute?

Of course it can, but it is a choice. Nobody's fate is sealed by being raised in a bad way. That's precisely why the connotations are just that, because it all depends on the person's reaction. Negative lyrics get blamed for someone CHOOSING to interpret them literally or in a bad way. They shouldn't, the person should. Musicians are ultimately only responsible for themselves.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok for example lethal bizzle doesnt sound anything like rap music?

See my previous reply about that.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well whats the problem?

What do you mean? I never denied music was influential.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok so when youre 12 you're mature now? Dont you think at 12 its alot easier to be influenced? You're trying to make out that all 12 year olds are very mature.

I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying at 12 or older, maybe even younger, you have clear notions of what you should do and what you shouldn't do. Seeing as we're talking about gun crime, though, we must be talking early teens, in which case they DEFINITELY know that what they're doing isn't good, but they do it because they're bad kids.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Then they were never facts.

Precisely. As far as you know. It's experience, and you lack this.

Not the original stuff he did, the original stuff he did was garage. When he tried to make hip hop, obviously it sounded more like mainstream hip hop. Everything he's done has been one thing, though; Shit.

I worded that a bit unclear, sorry. What I meant was that lyrics can't create an attitude. The attitude is already there, if it's mirrored in the music then it's nothing more than an excuse.

You were, which is why we're debating.

Yes, but you have to remember why it's a factor.

Read it again. There are cultures that are born of music and music genres that are born out of a culture.

For example, the straight edge lifestyle was created by Ian Mackaye of Minor Threat in the song Straight Edge. The song wasn't part of the culture in general, it created a culture because of it's ideas. People who didn't even like the song happened to agree with what it was about. Therefore, straight edge culture wasn't necessarily full of people who liked straight edge musicians/music.

In the case of garage, it's opposite. Out of a culture, people started making that kind of music, modern garage anyway. So it comes back to it being an attitude first.

Of course it can, but it is a choice. Nobody's fate is sealed by being raised in a bad way. That's precisely why the connotations are just that, because it all depends on the person's reaction. Negative lyrics get blamed for someone CHOOSING to interpret them literally or in a bad way. They shouldn't, the person should. Musicians are ultimately only responsible for themselves.

See my previous reply about that.

What do you mean? I never denied music was influential.

I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying at 12 or older, maybe even younger, you have clear notions of what you should do and what you shouldn't do. Seeing as we're talking about gun crime, though, we must be talking early teens, in which case they DEFINITELY know that what they're doing isn't good, but they do it because they're bad kids.

-AC [/B]

I'll respond to this later im really too tired right now. probably respond on Monday.

At any rate I dont think getting rid of hip hop will get rid of gun crime it just seems that hip hop seems to attracts alot of ***holes...sorry.

Don't be sorry, if you believe that then that's up to you.

If your experience has made you believe that, fine. Just realise it's not necessarily the case.

-AC

That reminds me of when the two kids at Columbine shot everyone after listening to Eminem's music

Originally posted by Alfheim
This bloody rap music gun culture is getting on my nerves its ****ing everywhere

I've read most of the post but I thought it was best to start at the roots.
"Bloody rap music gun culture" is not the problem. This is an issue of sociology and psychology.

I am a black male who knows a lot nice amount of people. I have lived in Los Angeles, Chicago, Memphis, and currently attend college. Honestly, and I am not making this up, young people ranging in the ages of 13-20, I know four, just FREAKING FOUR people, outside of my family, who have both of their blood parents! My father and mother split when I was 9; I stayed with my mother, but my father stayed in my life and am fortunate for that. This is one of the reasons this generation of black youth, as a whole, is so ****ed up. I can't cover all of the basis; takes far too long.

Here's some free verse I did that explains some of it a little more without me typing an essay:

I observe:
Nose wide open cats
Who like lyrics 'bout gacks
And other raps that slaughter blacks
They embrace it, though they never lived like that

You conform with them as a defensive mechanism
Reluctant to confirm interest in Hindu and other “isms”
You play your part much better than me
You say smart man, I don't know what I'm trying to be
The word good is synonymous with all things
The word bad created to puppeteer the naïve
The Haves amused by the prosperity idiots bring
Struggling amongst themselves with tools of contradictive reasoning

Don't want to read, “Damn! That's too long!”
Up in the club, “Damn! That's my song!”
Don't get offended, I didn't point @ ya
This is just a thesis on how our culture is backwards

Don't worry 'bout fatigue, I'm not 'gon explain
Cause that takes a trip down memory lane
Civil rights: equality becomes integration, look it up
When fathers sent a lame precedent that continues today -
Daddy been lame for a while, that didn't affect your parents' smile?

That man affects my daughter and me,
With his lack of parenting
I'm sick of trying to be the individual to tell people what I see
Like they were born without eyes
How the **** I'm gon survive?
Alone

--------------------------------------------
You get it or you don't. I don't feel like anything besides copy and paste right now. This was a hard Friday 😆

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That reminds me of when the two kids at Columbine shot everyone after listening to Eminem's music

I believe they blamed Marilyn Manson, not Eminem.

-AC

These people are just angry that they like shitty music, thus they kill people.

Very simple, that.