Oh, cmon... Old Ben was sitting in his ass all the time in Tatooine... i really doubt he used his saber or practiced. In the Force i agree old ben takes this, but if this is up to saber combat, AOTC Obi-Wan wins comfortably. I mean, Ben is TOTALLY out-of-practice.
ANH Ben is NOT close to Mace, or Anakin, or many other, and Sidious is equal to YODA for gods sake... in saber and Force... he did not lose practice that easily, and he had apprentices, how do you know de did not train with them from time to time? Obi-Wan did NOTHING but spy on look for 2o yrs...
And Ben could have practiced, too, I mean, I doubt he practiced very often but I could see him practicing a little bit just to keep his skills up.
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Lol what did you edit out?
I wanted to change:
Originally posted by jollyjim311
At least we know he could Ben could pwn
Originally posted by darthsith19
Your probably right, Ben probably was out of practice, but it doesn't matter because he still moved faster in the cantina than he ever did in AOTC and was still a "powerful warrior" and was nearly as strong as ANH Vader, so even though he was out of practice he was still clearly a very powerful Jedi.Actually, vader11 has a good point, you don't lose a lot if you don't practice, sure you lose a little but not a lot. And Ben isn't to far behind Mace and Anakin, I mean, he is behind them but not by as much as you're indicating. Kenobi wasn't far behind ANH Vader, after all, who is 80% of the OT Sidious, who is stronger than ROTS Sidious. I doubt very much that AOTC Kenobi is even 60% of ROTS Sidious, let alone 80%.
And Ben could have practiced, too, I mean, I doubt he practiced very often but I could see him practicing a little bit just to keep his skills up.
Agreed, except, if Someone is 60% as powerful as someone, they could probably put up a fight. Fisto, as or ROTS, is probably more powerful than AOTC Kenobi, and judging from the fact that an attention-diverted Palps took out Fisto in a few swings, there's no way AOTC Kenobi is even close to 60% of Sidious. Maybe a tenth of that, as far as generic percent numbers go.
But ROTS Anakin is nearly 100% of Sidious (that one GL quote makes it seem as if he is 100% but to be fair I'll say almost 100%). Anakin says that he doubled in power since AOTC. If that's true and he's not just trying to intimidate Dooku, then AOTC Anakin is about 50% of Sidious. AOTC Kenobi's slightly ahead of AOTC Anakin, so he's got to be 50-55% I suppose, after reconsidering, 60% was just a tad bit high. As far as Kit Fisto goes, the movie screwed him over, he's got to be more like 70% of Sidious (he's as strong as Kenobi is 1/2 way between AOTC and ROTS so). That's like saying Agen Kolar must be 1% of Sidious just because of what we see in the movie. The movie screwed those characters over, if we go by the movies then ESB Luke can pwn Agen and Saesee and put up a very long fight against Kit.
Anakin's "double power" quote really doesn't hold much ground. I honestly doubt that Anakin kept track on exactly how much he grew since he last met Dooku (besides, that doesn't necessarily aim for AOTC, the last time he met Dooku was in LOE. But it is more logical that it would be AOTC), nor do I believe there is an exact range at all to how much he grew in power....
And I would put AOTC Anakin equal or above AOTC Obi-Wan actually. But that's just me...
Originally posted by darthsith19How does it not matter? He's no Sidious in the least. And you'll have to forgive me for laughing that you think he Alec Guiness moved faster than Ewan did...thats ridiculous. Gideon said that Jolly Jim was the one who said that Vader was toying with Ben to "wear him down" before killing him, so no, i don't think he was as strong as Vader. And can be as powerful as he wants, it doesn't alter the fact that he was/is slower than AOTC OB1. And it said that OB1 started to perfect form 3 after he saw the holes and flaws in QGJ's form and how easily he was killed. So, if he started perfecting it at the end of TPM, he's had 10 years to learn how to utilize it. I doubt there was a significant increase in his saber technique in the three years between AOTC and ROTS, granted there would be some, but nothing monumental, meaning that OB1 is already extremely proficient with his form. And being in practice makes a huge difference in fighting.
Your probably right, Ben probably was out of practice, but it doesn't matter because he still moved faster in the cantina than he ever did in AOTC and was still a "powerful warrior" and was nearly as strong as ANH Vader, so even though he was out of practice he was still clearly a very powerful Jedi.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Actually, vader11 has a good point, you don't lose a lot if you don't practice, sure you lose a little but not a lot. And Ben isn't to far behind Mace and Anakin, I mean, he is behind them but not by as much as you're indicating. Kenobi wasn't far behind ANH Vader, after all, who is 80% of the OT Sidious, who is stronger than ROTS Sidious. I doubt very much that AOTC Kenobi is even 60% of ROTS Sidious, let alone 80%.
Originally posted by darthsith19With what? A remote droid? That in no way compares to what would be at an active Jedi temple member's disposal.
And Ben could have practiced, too, I mean, I doubt he practiced very often but I could see him practicing a little bit just to keep his skills up.
Originally posted by darthsith19Two old grimy pirates are in no way comparable to an AOTC OB1 in speed, power, or fighting prowess. I already mentioned the keeping up with Vader. Vader toyed with everyone in the OT. No reason to assume that he didn't toy with Ben as well.
He may have been out of practice but he is still a "powerful warrior" and pwnd two pirates in about half a second, plus he was about even with ANH Vader, so he can't have been to out of practice, otehrwise Vader would have owned him.
Originally posted by darthsith19I thought Gideon provided it, but he said JJ did, so it'd be up to him provide it again, although I'm sure his bias in this debate would hinder him from doing so. And no, just because he lost to Vader doesn't mean he can beat his younger self. What kind of sense does that make? If he could have beaten Vader, he would have. He wouldn't have given up. No one searches for a fight just to commit suicide.
The first part begs for proof. As for the second part, abc doesn't always work but often it does and if Old Ben is even close to Vader then he should definitely be able to beat young Kenobi.
Originally posted by darthsith19
What does Yoda have to do with this? And my point was not that kenobi didn't decrease in power between episodes 3 and 4, the point was that he is still powerful in ANH.
Originally posted by darthsith19Moving your forearms a distance of less than a meter is completely different that engaging in a full out battle with a powerful Jedi. Ben, by his own admission, was too old to even go out and help Leia by himself. His younger counterpart was going out on all kinds of missions by himself and was successful. That has to tell you something.
Vader cutting through the Wookiees is impressive. MY point with the Ponda Boba/Doctor Evasan thing was that, despite his old age, Kenobi is still extremely fast.
Originally posted by darthsith19Are you fcuking kidding me?! Its harder to swing a weightless beam of concentrated energy that cuts through anything, than it is to swing a heavy chain that is attached to you over a huge slug's corpulent neck while having to hop over his craftmatic bed? PLEASE! And post a still of them having their weapons drawn. You forget that it was two of them in a bar when Jabba was surrounded by his faithfuls and confidants in HIS area...advantage Ben there. More props go to Leia there.
Jabba was unarmed, and Leia didn't take him out that quickly, she got the chain over his head quickly but the actual chocking took a while, and it's a lot harder to swing a saber fast enough to kill two thugs than it is to simply flip a chain over someone's neck.
Originally posted by darthsith19Ludicrous to assume. If i remember correctly, and i could be wrong, you were arguing for Dooku in the Dooku vs Vader thread, right? And everyone's point there was "you have to go by the highest form of canon which is the movie, in which he moved like a slow piece of shit." And that same logic and reasoning applies to Ben. I said you could even provide any EU feats to your argument which you haven't done. So choreography aside, Ben is slow and thats all there is to it. To argue against that is too argue against canon.
Except that was only due to bad choreography, since we know from the Ponda Baba/Doctor Evazan that he is still extremely fast, much faster than his AOTC self and probably almost as fast as his ROTS self.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Nope, ANH Kenobi is much quicker, more experienced, and, as Ben proved with the thugs and Vader, it doesn't matter than he isn't in practice because he's still strong as hell.
Originally posted by darthsith19I would say AOTC OB1 spinning around and cutting off a dangerous bounty hunter's hand (even more quickly than old Ben's feat) is more impressive than being face to face with a guy and cutting his arm off. Also he pulled it out slow enough for the bartender to notice what was going on and scream, "no blasters, no blasters!" and duck. In AOTC no one had time to say shit, he spun and her arm was gone. Which is more impressive? That's right, AOTC...
It proves that ANH kenobi is still extremely quick, though, plus those pirates may have not been suspecting Kenobi to eb anything but an old man but still, they already had their weapons out even and before they would even react Ponda Baba's arm was laying on the floor. That's quick.
The bartender comment was in response to Luke being tossed, and in the movie, Mace and Sidious are slow. So is Kit Fisto. So are most Jedi. Do they all suck now? No. We have EU and expansions, like what are in novels.
In the novel, Kenobi states that he is more powerful than the last time he and Vader met, so, even if it's close, Old Ben would still be a fair bit ahead of AOTC Kenobi.