Originally posted by Count Makashi
But during the duel, there was nothing that prevented him, going all out, he let his feelings get in the way, in case of the pillar, but when he was fighting Dooku, he was going all out, he had to stop him to escape, to stop the war.
Wow. That is one of the worst excuses for a character's defense I have ever read, Count Makashi. Stop attempting to interpret Yoda's feelings without sufficient evidence; you have no proof and you're not George Lucas. Thus, your theories are baseless and do not function as evidence.
If he wanted to kill Dooku, he would have used every instance he could of to bring him down. He didn't. Plain and simple.
And what did he do against Sidious, i didn't see him using any offensive techniques, he waited for Sidious moves and countered him and are you seriously suggesting that Yoda wasn't going all out on Dooku, lets say at least to capture him. The Jedi thought by capturing him, the war would end, the lives of countless civilians wouldn't be jeopardized, what was the reason for him to hold back during the duel.
And what did he do against Sidious,
"Destroy the Sith we must!" versus "Captured, Dooku must be, before he rallies more systems to his cause!"
Really, Count Makashi, do I have to spell it out for you? He engaged Sidious with the intent and goal to kill - not capture - him. It wasn't even a "capture, if possible, kill if necessary" goal. It was to terminate his life.
Yet, he makes it completely clear that his goal was to capture Dooku. Thus, he didn't want nor act to kill Dooku.
i didn't see him using any offensive techniques, he waited for Sidious moves and countered him
Right; Yoda waited for Sidious - the Dark Lord of the Sith, his primary enemy - to attack him first. Ridiculous. No, Yoda went into the duel cocky and overconfident, and got blasted unconscious for his efforts. Then, he took the fight seriously, and went on the offensive first.
and are you seriously suggesting that Yoda wasn't going all out on Dooku, lets say at least to capture him.
Are you "seriously suggesting" that going "full-out" on someone to capture them is the same as going "full-out" on someone to kill them? I'd call you an idiot if that is your thought.
The Jedi thought by capturing him, the war would end, the lives of countless civilians wouldn't be jeopardized, what was the reason for him to hold back during the duel.
That's nice.
Yoda's goal was to "capture Dooku". As in to bring him [Dooku] in alive. We've learned, even, from Dark Rendezvous, that Yoda was practically itching for the chance to redeem his prized pupil.
No it wouldn't, if it was easily to kill him, it would be easily to capture him and what i meant, he didn't use any offensive Force attack, except for the push, when Sidious threw pods at him, he captured them and threw it back, when Sidious used Lightning, Yoda absorb it and deflected it back, just like with Dooku, he didn't use any offensive Force powers an only went on offensive with lightsabers, like with Dooku. Yoda brought his A game against both Sith, he was wining against Dooku, it was a draw against Sidious. And even by capturing someone, you still have to try your best, because he is fighting you and if Yoda was so much better, that you say he was, why didn't he easily capture him then, he could have cut of one of his hands(that would still be capturing him), use the Force on him, if he is leagues above him.
No it wouldn't, if it was easily to kill him, it would be easily to capture him and what i meant,
That's piss poor logic.
First, I didn't say that "it would be easy" for Yoda to kill Dooku. I simply said that Yoda would dominate him and defeat him without putting forth his best effort.
Second, Yoda wasn't fighting Dooku to kill him, but Dooku was fighting to kill, thus, Yoda was at a disadvantage. Dooku was willing to go to greater lengths than Yoda was.
he didn't use any offensive Force attack, except for the push,
What else was he going to do, Count Makashi? Realistically speaking, aside from using dark side-related techniques, the Jedi have crap to work with in terms of "offensive maneuvers" unless it's ritualistic in nature. Why do you think Yoda tried to keep the fight to lightsabers?
when Sidious threw pods at him, he captured them and threw it back,
The Jedi's natural state is "defensive", and unless they are using dark side-related attacks, they are simply more ruthless with it when they are looking to kill somebody.
when Sidious used Lightning, Yoda absorb it and deflected it back,
Because that's all he could do.
just like with Dooku,
Bingo. Need I remind you that during the Force contest, Yoda only attempted to attack Yoda once? There goes your entire argument. If Yoda was giving it his all, he would have chucked the debris back at Dooku or attacked him with his lightning both times.
he didn't use any offensive Force powers an only went on offensive with lightsabers, like with Dooku.
He attacked Sidious with all he had; that wasn't the case with Dooku.
Yoda brought his A game against both Sith,
He brought it only with Sidious.
he was wining against Dooku,
Yes, and he wasn't giving it his all.
it was a draw against Sidious.
Because Sidious is both a match for Yoda and as powerful. Dooku is neither.
And even by capturing someone, you still have to try your best,
Nope. If you fight your absolute best, you intend to kill the opponent and use all opportunities to do so.
because he is fighting you and if Yoda was so much better, that you say he was,
Poor logic. Had it been someone of Sidious's calibre, then, yes, Yoda would have had to at least give it his "all" in terms of defense. But we know that Count Dooku can't beat Yoda on a planet steeped in the dark side, when Yoda is both a.) unwilling to kill Dooku and b.) distracted.
Please. It's a sign of superiority then. Dooku had all the advantages, and he still fled.
why didn't he easily capture him then,
Are you braindead? I said Yoda would beat Dooku without putting forth his best effort. That doesn't make Dooku "easily captured", especially when Dooku is fighting his hardest.
he could have cut of one of his hands(that would still be capturing him), use the Force on him, if he is leagues above him.
The hell is wrong with you, Makashi? Dooku simply just doesn't measure up to Yoda at all. He couldn't defeat an emotionally conflicted and distracted Yoda on Vjun, so he couldn't take Yoda if Yoda were going all out.
I never said, that he could take Yoda, just that Yoda, would take some time to defeat Dooku and during their lightsaber duel, Yoda was more on the offensive, that wasn't very defensive natural state. Policemen always go with the intent to capture their targets, does that mean, they aren't trying their best and i have to go to sleep, we will continue this tomorrow.
Actually Dooku would lose if Obiwan & Anakin were not there.
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=37&page=130
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=37&page=131
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=37&page=132
Yoda can actually beat Dooku quickly.
CM, by your logic, if Yoda was fighting at his best to even capture Dooku and couldn't do it, then Dooku should be able to capture or kill Yoda without question, right? Yoda could have killed Dooku during the 8 seconds it took him to turn his attentions away from Yoda to try to crush OB1 and Anakin, but he didn't do that - why? - because he didn't want to kill him.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
CM, by your logic, if Yoda was fighting at his best to even capture Dooku and couldn't do it, then Dooku should be able to capture or kill Yoda without question, right? Yoda could have killed Dooku during the 8 seconds it took him to turn his attentions away from Yoda to try to crush OB1 and Anakin, but he didn't do that - why? - because he didn't want to kill him.
What are you talking about, i said Yoda was wining and if the fight continued he would have won, i am just arguing it wouldn't be easy victory for Yoda, if it was so easy, as Gideon said, whats the point of Dooku and Yoda knew, by stooping Dooku from escaping, he would stop the war, why wouldn't he fight his best, at least to capture him, but even to capture Dooku, hes still needs to penetrate his defenses, thats what he was trying in AOTC. Yoda would win, butt far from easy and his feelings got in the way, but not his feelings for Dooku, but for the wounded pair.
Vader11, that comic isn't canon, Dooku fights with 2 sabers in it, but its canonical stated, that he hates Jar'Kai and Yoda was more tired after the fight in the movies, not that it mattered in the fight.
Here is the singular problem with your entire argument, Count Makashi: Yoda has never attacked Count Dooku to the "best of his ability". He's never gone "full-out" on him. Not once. This is simple fact and it is unquestionable, and you have no evidence that can refute it. So, instead of thinking like a fanboy, think logically.
In AotC, Yoda told Mace that Dooku must be "captured". He had no intent of taking Dooku's life; and, in a fight to the death (which is what it was with Dooku) if you don't intend to kill your opponent, you fight with restraint. That means that Yoda was holding back. It is simple logic that if you intend to kill your opponent, you will fight your hardest and take every single opportunity you can to end their life.
a.) Count Dooku attacked Yoda with the Force several times, trying to bring down debris from the hangar on his head. What did Yoda do? He simply brushed it aside. If he was trying to kill Dooku, what would he have done? He would have made an attempt to throw it back. Count Dooku attacked Yoda with Force lightning as well, and Yoda simply crushed the lightning in his hand. He did not make an attempt to subdue or incapacitate him. Only during the final salvo did Yoda hurl the lightning back. There you go. Four times, Yoda showed absolute restraint towards bringing Dooku harm.
b.) The novelization and script prove that Dooku was fighting Yoda to the best of his ability (attempting to establish dominance), but failed to breach Yoda's defense.
c.) As previously stated - if Yoda were fighting to the best of his ability, he would be without restraints and take every opportunity available. He did neither. Knowing full well what sort've threat Count Dooku represented, he let him go, and opted to save Anakin and Obi-Wan.
Here's the kicker:
Obi-Wan and Yoda discussed the war in RotS, and Obi-Wan said: "If ending the war even a day sooner would require me to take your [Yoda's] life, I would do so." And Yoda not only agreed, but said that he would do the same - that any Jedi would do so in a similar position. Also, Yoda didn't believe that Anakin was the Chosen One - saying that the prophecy could have been "misread". So he had no real reason to save Obi-Wan or Anakin. But perhaps he took the opportunity so that he wouldn't have to kill Dooku.
d.) We learn the full depth of Yoda's relationship with Count Dooku in Dark Rendezvous. Yoda still cares for Dooku, and knowingly walks into a trap to try to convert him back to the light side of the Force. You'll notice that he didn't try to do that with Palpatine in RotS. It's because he still cared for Dooku and thought that he could be redeemed. That whole novel is Dooku - but, moreso, Sidious - taking advantage of Yoda's concern and love for Dooku.
e.) They fight on Vjun, a planet entrenched in the dark side of the Force, where Dooku's power is "enhanced" (he brought Asajj to her knees by lifting a finger) and Yoda's would naturally be dampened. To top it off, Dooku chucked the housemaid out of a window, forcing Yoda to catch her with the Force - and he simultaneously attacked Yoda. Yet, what happened? Ah, yes: Dooku fled, once again, forcing Yoda to save Vjun by stopping the missile Dooku placed in orbit in case of his defeat.
And even during that, Yoda didn't want to kill Dooku: "wish to hurt you, I do not!"
There you are, Count Makashi. The unfortunate weakness to your entire argument is that Yoda has never attacked Dooku with the intent to kill. He has always battled him with restraint. Dooku couldn't even overcome a restrained and distracted Yoda with enhanced powers. That goes to show the true gap of power between them.
If Yoda attacked Dooku with the intent to kill, it would be a comfortable win.
Don't like it? Then argue it. But, personally, I don't think you've got enough support.
sick burn!
Although I disagree with the Yoda not thinking Anakin was the Chosen One. I think what he was referring to was, "is he not to destroy the sith and bring balance to the force?' meaning that there could possibly be a down period before the up, a'la turning to Vader, then killing the emperor thus fulfilling the prophecy. Also, he said, "the chosen one the boy may be, but..." not meaning he may be the one, but although he is, i'm against his training. But, thats not the argument. Just wanted to mention it...
The point is that Yoda did not believe, for a second, that Anakin was - beyond a shadow of a doubt - the Chosen One. In fact, he never "just believed it". Thus, he had no real reason to rescue Anakin or Obi-Wan from the falling pillar beyond the two simple facts: a.) They were Jedi, which he cared about and b.) It would save him from possibly killing Count Dooku.
Or, Yoda's a hypocrite, which is also possible.