Originally posted by Mr MasterThe meaning of what I said was simply that,
I find this notion contradictory to On Panel scenerios depicted like this one:
The Red Brother represented Marvel.
The Blue Brother represented DC.
Whether or not they represented the "sum total" of their companies, wasn't even commented upon. 🙂
Though this scan kind of speaks for itself, where that part of the debate is concerned:
Originally posted by Galan007
If TOAA in Marvel fought the Presence in DC, what would happen?Because we know that these characters are both omnipotent.
Yet I have a hard time believing that one of them could beat the other. 😬
That's just it, it would be impossible for them to fight, because if one existed, then, by definition, the other one could not exist. So asking who would win a fight between two omnipotent beings is like asking what would happen if you had a square circle. It's logically impossible.
Again,This doesn't always hold true in the comic world.
It holds true according to the definition of omnipotence "All - powerful, able to do anything".
If there's something you can't do, then, by definition, you're not omnipotent. Unless you're redefining omnipotent to mean something else.
Originally posted by Endless MikeSo it's impossible for these beings to exist together just because they're omnipotent?
That's just it, it would be impossible for them to fight, because if one existed, then, by definition, the other one could not exist. So asking who would win a fight between two omnipotent beings is like asking what would happen if you had a square circle. It's logically impossible.
That makes no sense.... 😕
But answer the question, if those 2 omnipotent beings were able to battle each other, who would come out on top?
Or would they stalemate? 🙂
Originally posted by Endless MikeIf we are going by "real world" definitions, you are correct.
It holds true according to the definition of omnipotence "All - powerful, able to do anything".If there's something you can't do, then, by definition, you're not omnipotent. Unless you're redefining omnipotent to mean something else.
But the real world and the comic world differ in many ways.
Beings who have held omnipotence in comics, have not always been omniscient.
That much is a fact.
Originally posted by Galan007
So it's impossible for these beings to exist together just because they're omnipotent?That makes no sense.... 😕
But answer the question, if those 2 omnipotent beings were able to battle each other, who would come out on top?
It's impossible to answer, because it's impossible to have more than one omnipotent being.
If we are going by "real world" definitions, you are correct.But the real world and the comic world differ in many ways.
Beings who have held omnipotence in comics, have not always been omniscient.
That much is a fact.
So that means they're not truly omnipotent.
Let me ask you this, if someone suggested a fight between a being that was supposedly "omnipotent" but not omniscient, and a being that was supposedly omnipotent and omniscient, who do you think would win?
Originally posted by Endless MikeStill makes no sense, but whatever.
It's impossible to answer, because it's impossible to have more than one omnipotent being.
Originally posted by Endless MikeThat's an obvious answer, but not really what I was getting at.
So that means they're not truly omnipotent.Let me ask you this, if someone suggested a fight between a being that was supposedly "omnipotent" but not omniscient, and a being that was supposedly omnipotent and omniscient, who do you think would win?
Who would win between pre-retcon Beyonder v.s. a being who was his exact equal in EVERY way?
Beyonder was a prime example of a character who was omnipotent, but not omniscient.
So if those 2 battled, what would happen?
Originally posted by Galan007
Still makes no sense, but whatever.
It makes perfect sense.... if you introduce limitations to an omnipotent being, then that being is not omnipotent, and never was.
That's an obvious answer, but not really what I was getting at.
Well it is what I was getting at. If the obvious answer is that the omnipotent + omniscient being would win, then the first "omnipotent" being would have been defeated and overcome. For an omnipotent being, that's impossible, by the very definition of omnipotence. So therefore, your idea of omnipotence isn't really omnipotence at all.
Who would win between pre-retcon Beyonder v.s. a being who was his exact equal in EVERY way?Beyonder was a prime example of a character who was omnipotent, but not omniscient.
So if those 2 battled, what would happen?
PR Beyonder was not omnipotent, he had limitations, he was often surprised by things, he was challenged by Molecule Man....
The fact that he was not omniscient proves that he was not omnipotent. You can have omniscience but lack omnipotence, but not the other way around.
Originally posted by Endless MikeWho had limitations? 😕
It makes perfect sense.... if you introduce limitations to an omnipotent being, then that being is not omnipotent, and never was.
Originally posted by Endless MikeOf course this is correct, in the real world.
Well it is what I was getting at. If the obvious answer is that the omnipotent + omniscient being would win, then the first "omnipotent" being would have been defeated and overcome. For an omnipotent being, that's impossible, by the very definition of omnipotence. So therefore, your idea of omnipotence isn't really omnipotence at all.
But again, in comics you CAN have omnipotence but not omniscience.
Originally posted by Endless MikeIf you're omnipotent, yet not omniscient you would be surprised by things.
PR Beyonder was not omnipotent, he had limitations, he was often surprised by things, he was challenged by Molecule Man....
And MM only "challenged" Beyonder, until Beyonder actually tried.
This doesn't disprove omnipotence.
Originally posted by Galan007
The meaning of what I said was simply that,The Red Brother represented Marvel.
The Blue Brother represented DC.
Cool.
Originally posted by Galan007
Whether or not they represented the "sum total" of their companies, wasn't even commented upon.
Earlier on you said they were the Supreme Beings IYO.
That's why I said that,
if you feel differently now, that's good. 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007
Though this scan kind of speaks for itself, where that part of the debate is concerned:
The debate concerns the Amalgam Brothers, so everything about them is of concern.
So yea, that Scan says that, but other scans from the same Arc contradict that. 🙂
It's not your fault really, the Creators of this nonsense are to blame. 😠
Originally posted by Galan007
Who had limitations? 😕
TOAA and the Presence have no limitations. But if you introduce one to another in a crossover scenario, then they are given limitations by not being able to instantly defeat each other.
Of course this is correct, in the real world.But again, in comics you CAN have omnipotence but not omniscience.
So then your definition of "omnipotence in comics" isn't real omnipotence at all, and is just meaningless.
If you're omnipotent, yet not omniscient you would be surprised by things.And MM only "challenged" Beyonder, until Beyonder actually tried.
This doesn't disprove omnipotence.
Yes it does, because if he was omnipotent, he could have just wanted to know something, and he would instantly know it.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
That's just it, it would be impossible for them to fight, because if one existed, then, by definition, the other one could not exist. So asking who would win a fight between two omnipotent beings is like asking what would happen if you had a square circle. It's logically impossible.It holds true according to the definition of omnipotence "All - powerful, able to do anything".
If there's something you can't do, then, by definition, you're not omnipotent. Unless you're redefining omnipotent to mean something else.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
TOAA and the Presence have no limitations. But if you introduce one to another in a crossover scenario, then they are given limitations by not being able to instantly defeat each other.So then your definition of "omnipotence in comics" isn't real omnipotence at all, and is just meaningless.
Yes it does, because if he was omnipotent, he could have just wanted to know something, and he would instantly know it.
Originally posted by Endless MikeWhy?
TOAA and the Presence have no limitations. But if you introduce one to another in a crossover scenario, then they are given limitations by not being able to instantly defeat each other.
They are both Omnipotent, they would stalemate eternally.
One infinity can not be greater then another, but there can be more then one infinity.
A characters power-set doesn't change this.
Originally posted by Endless MikeIt depends.
So then your definition of "omnipotence in comics" isn't real omnipotence at all, and is just meaningless.
The only truly omnipotent/omniscient character(s) in comics are TOAA/Presence.
But just as there are more then one level of infinity (in comics), there are also more then one level of omnipotence (in comics).
Beyonder, and Thanos /w/ THOTI were both omnipotent, but not omniscient.
TOAA/Presence would have still been more powerful then them.
Originally posted by Endless Mikereal world? Yes.
Yes it does, because if he was omnipotent, he could have just wanted to know something, and he would instantly know it.
Comic world? Not necessarily.
Originally posted by Galan007
Why?They are both Omnipotent, they would stalemate eternally.
One infinity can not be greater then another, but there can be more then one infinity.
A characters power-set doesn't change this.
Omnipotence isn't the same as infinite power. Omnipotence means the ability to do anything, with no limitations whatsoever. If two beings cannot defeat each other, then, by definition, neither of them are omnipotent.
It depends.The only truly omnipotent/omniscient character(s) in comics are TOAA/Presence.
But just as there are more then one level of infinity (in comics), there are also more then one level of omnipotence (in comics).
Beyonder, and Thanos /w/ THOTI were both omnipotent, but not omniscient.
TOAA/Presence would have still been more powerful then them.
What you mean is that Beyonder and HOTU are extremely potent, but not omnipotent.
real world? Yes.Comic world? Not necessarily.
Special pleading.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
So you admit your position is illogical.I win by default then.
Originally posted by Endless MikeThis goes back to the age old question, which really proves that nothing can be truly omnipotent.
Omnipotence isn't the same as infinite power. Omnipotence means the ability to do anything, with no limitations whatsoever. If two beings cannot defeat each other, then, by definition, neither of them are omnipotent.What you mean is that Beyonder and HOTU are extremely potent, but not omnipotent.
If TOAA was trying, could he create a boulder so large, that he could not lift it?
If yes, then TOAA didn't do what he meant to do.... Proving he was not omnipotent.
If no, then TOAA didn't do what he meant to do.... Proving he was not omnipotent.
