Who better to tier heroes . . .?

I havent followed the whole thread so it might have been discussed, but why is Arsenal a tier above Nightwing?

I think someone confused "Red Arrrow" with "Red Hood"

Originally posted by Validus
Here's a CA-RAZY thought! How about letting the arc play out before putting Kalibak in the same tier as Thanos and King Thor? For all we know Orion could shitstomp Kalibak next issue.

As it stands now, beating Orion and Mr. Miracle isn't cause to put someone in that category.

Why does it feel like I'm talking to myself anyway?

🙂

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
😆 that might actually work. But as anyone who's seen Hanzo the Razor knows, a muscle that's well exercised works better than one that's fat. naughty

Back to the topic. Here is the list once again.

Transcendent:

Despero, Thanos, The Keeper, Dr. Strange (classic), The Doctor, Mangog, Dr. Fate, Ion (current), The General (Shaggy Man), Tyrant (powered down), Onslaught, Gog, Superman 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Validus, High Evolutionary, Eclipso, Elders of the Universe -- minus Ego, Circe, Blackheart, Death Urge, Black Racer, Tanaraq, Nightmare, Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Sun Eater, King Thor, Amazo, Takion, Fernus, Stayne, Superboy Prime, Resurrection Man 1 Million

Top-Tier

High Top-tier:
The Silver Surfer, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Superman, Superman Blue/Red, Stardust, Genis-Vell, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Moonstone (w/ both stones), Spartan 3.0, Thor, Adam Warlock, Infinity-Man

Middle Top-tier:
Morg, The Sentry, Gladiator, Quasar, Majestic, Orion, Beta Ray Bill, Doomsday, Binary, Mon-El, The Eradicator, Firelord, Supreme, Red Shift, Waverider, The Fallen One, The Flash III (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), Sinestro, Cyborg Superman, Void, Alexander Nero, Wildfire, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Skreet, Terrax the Tamer, Captain Marvel (DC), General Zod, Black Adam, Sersi, Nate Grey, Cable (Full Power), Black Bolt, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Hyperion, Supergirl, Wonder Woman, Maxima, Martian Manhunter

Low Top-tier:
Magneto, Captain Atom, Apocalypse, Graviton, Holocaust, Engineer, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Mar-Vell, Breach, He-Man, Raven, Superboy, Animal Man, Darkness, Dr. Invincible, Shaman, Vulcan, Ultra Boy, Matrix Supergirl, Dr. Light, Union, Prime, Gorilla Grodd, Hector Hammond, Dr. Polaris, Mongul, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Jade, Selene (External), Jericho, Ronan the Accuser, Super Skrull, Bizarro Superman, Manchester Black, Major Force, Red Tornado, The Ray, Cir-El, Cassandra Nova, Meggan, Tempest, Apollo, Professor X, Absorbing Man, Graviton, Monica Rambeau (Pulsar), Shadow King, Loki, Death Metal, Starhawk, Lunatik, Count Nefaria, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Etrigan, Lightray, Firestorm, Absorbing Man, Iceman, Darwin, Saturn Girl, Nova Rich Ryder (current), Gilgamesh, Drax The Destroyer, Isis, Nova (Frankie Raye), Air Walker, Hulk, Juggernaut (Classic), Kalibak, Gamora (w/Godslayer), Winter

Mid-Tier

High Mid-tier:
Mandarin, Temugin, Ultron, Vision, Hercules (Mortal), Aquaman, Doom, Mimic (Exiles), Sasquatch, The Karate Kid, Pitt, Ironman, Namor the Sub-Mariner , Storm, Invisible Woman, Metallo, Mr. Sinister, Box, Cap Marvel Jr, Kang, Grim Reaper, Ulik, Living Laser, Zzaxx, Ultimo, Sand, Ghost Rider II, Abomination, Plastic-Man, The Thing, Colossus, Abomination, Wonder Man, Donna Troy, Jean Grey (Sans Phoenix), Atlas, The Human Torch, Starfire, She-Hulk, Power Girl, Emma Frost, Mary Marvel, Northstar, Aurora, Captain Britan, Blastaar, Maul, Guardian I, War Machine, The Tick, Thunderstrike, Miss Martian, Ares (Marvel), Juggernaut(Depowered), Blob, Osiris

Medium Mid-tier:
Ghost Rider, Rogue, Ms. Marvel, Cyborg, Wonder Girl, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Atom Smasher, Toxin, Carnage, Radioactive Man, Bombshell, Lightning Lad, Havok, Omega Red, Beast Boy, Box, Booster Gold, Nico Minoru, Aegis, Thunder, Grace Choi, Shift, Bishop, Crystal, Jenny Sparks, Elijah Snow, Terra, Blink, Blue Devil, Morlun, Moonstone, Steel, Attuma, Kymaera/Namorita, Rachel Summers, M.O.D.O.K., Vance Astro, Balder

Low Mid-tier:
Nova Rich Ryder (classic), Deathlok, Speedfreek, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Doc Ock, Venom, , Mister Hyde, Electro, Firehawk, Black Canary , Psylocke, , Death's Head II, Vance Astro, Tombstone, Klaw, Ambrose Chase, Jakita Wagner ,Century, Rom, Vanguard, Charcoal , Machine Man, Wizard, Cloak, Rage, Black Tarantula, Wolverine, Killer Croc, Luke Cage, Deathstroke the Terminator, Spider-Man, The Midnighter, Angel, Sabretooth, Cyclops, Drizzt Do'Urden, Bruenor Battlehammer, Wulfgar, Azrael, Lady Deathstrike, Iron Fist, Beast, Gambit, Vulture, Mysterio, Vermin, Man-Bat, Orka Humbug, Spider-Woman, Arachne, Arana, Kingpin, Silver Samurai, Ravager, Nightcrawler, Creeper, Victor Mancha, Kid Devil, Molly Hayes, Mystique, Puck, Charlie 27, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Puma, Swift, Shang Chi, 3-D man, Longshot, Falcon, Protocide, Constrictor, Speedball, Dagger, Blade, Swift, Triathalon, Nuke, Karnak

Low-Tier:

High Low-tier:
Batman, Daredevil, Captain America, Taskmaster, Elektra, Batgirl, Black Panther, Joker, Hawkeye, Green Arrow, Red Skull, Arsenal/Red Arrow, Bullseye, Blacklash, Black Cat, Lady Shiva

Mid Low-tier:
Nightwing , Moon Knight, Grifter, Turok, Wildcat, Echo, Misty Knight, Baron Zemo, Nick Fury, Punisher, Ra's Al Ghul, Deadshot, Bane, Nomad

Low Mid-tier:
Robin, White Tiger, , Talia, The Question, Batroc, Crossbones, , Night Thrasher, Catwoman, Black Widow, Penguin, Riddler, Coleen Wing

I think Kingpin should be moved to High low-tier with Batman and the the like.

And I think Superman should be moved to the Mid High-tier. I know he has some ridiculous feats but a lot of people on the Mid high-tier have done so as well.

And I think that when people like a GL or Thor or Silver Surfer truly cut loose with their powers that they just trump Superman in power levels period. Not saying he couldn't take a few from them tho.

Also I think that with people like Gladiator and Beta Ray Bill in that category Superman is pretty interchangeable with those guys.

I don't mind Superman Blue/Red being High Top-tier tho.

Originally posted by Newjak
OK there I've looked over the list and I've only seen two people I think should be moved.

I think Kingpin should be moved to High low-tier with Batman and the the like.

And I think Superman should be moved to the Mid High-tier. I know he has some ridiculous feats but a lot of people on the Mid high-tier have done so as well.

And I think that when people like a GL or Thor or Silver Surfer truly cut loose with their powers that they just trump Superman in power levels period. Not saying he couldn't take a few from them tho.

Also I think that with people like Gladiator and Beta Ray Bill in that category Superman is pretty interchangeable with those guys.

I don't mind Superman Blue/Red being High Top-tier tho.

One can say when one of them cuts loose with power, they can hit him with crazy stuff, but at the same time, one could argue Kal cuts loose he runs through power like that like a kid in a sprinkler in the backyard.

Originally posted by Juntai
Well, guys like GL Surfer or Thor, have more versatility with their power to accomplish different tasks, but I don't see any of them as outright more powerfu than Kal. Especially in application and use in combat situations.

One can say when one of them cuts loose with power, they can hit him with crazy stuff, but at the same time, one could argue Kal cuts loose he runs through power like that like a kid in a sprinkler in the backyard.

Hence my reason why should go down to the Mid High-tier with those guys. He really isn't very much more impressive then those guys.

I wouldn't really mind him being at the very top if it wasn't for the fact people like that are Mid High-tier 😬

Would it be easier to say who goes where if some kind of defining criteria were established beforehand, for example, how a character typically uses their powerset? In fact, let everyone make suggestions as to what the defining criteria should be and let's vote. Once we have agreement here, I would think this might minimize fanboyism and make overall placement easier.

Also, seems like the number of tiers is growing because everyone is trying to accommodate small distinctions between characters (eg, Superman vs Wonder Woman). This also breeds Who-Goes-Where friction.

It might be best, perhaps, to establish a simple placement criteria, then arranging characters in a limited number of tiers (I do like Newjak's 3x3 approach as a finished product, but leonidas's initial 5 levels might be the best starting point).

Just some ideas...

Originally posted by Newjak
I'm not talking about versatility I'm talking about raw power which I know Superman has but I don't see him having more than Beta Ray Bill or Gladiator or even Majestic.

Hence my reason why should go down to the Mid High-tier with those guys. He really isn't very much more impressive then those guys.

I wouldn't really mind him being at the very top if it wasn't for the fact people like that are Mid High-tier 😬

Even guys like Green Lantern when they see Superman stop holding back are merely left in awe, despite the power they wield.

His normal operating level may be similar to those mid high tier guys -- as is the case with several of the high tier characters and not just Superman -- but you said 'cut loose', and when he wants to, he has no problem leveling up beyond those mid guys, and does so consistantly -- and by consistantly, I mean month in and month out -- so it shouldn't be said that these are merely his rare good showings as they are with many of the good showings of the mid-tiers, hell, he even levels past many of those high tier characters. Which is why I think he belongs there.

The only thing I see he lacks over a lot of the guys in high tier is versaility 'plot device' power, which he makes up for in sheer ingenuity and application of power.

Just since OYL[One Year Later] alone, someone needs their hands and toes -- or maybe more -- to count Supermans amazing feats, he's barely slowed down at all. Collecting most of DC's titles each weak, I haven't seen a character more impressive at all. Anyone who's been reading will certainly know what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Mindship
Would it be easier to say who goes where if some kind of defining criteria were established beforehand, for example, how a character typically uses their powerset? In fact, let everyone make suggestions as to what the defining criteria should be and let's vote. Once we have agreement here, I would think this might minimize fanboyism and make overall placement easier.

Also, seems like the number of tiers is growing because everyone is trying to accommodate small distinctions between characters (eg, Superman vs Wonder Woman). This also breeds Who-Goes-Where friction.

It might be best, perhaps, to establish a simple placement criteria, then arranging characters in a limited number of tiers (I do like Newjak's 3x3 approach as a finished product, but leonidas's initial 5 levels might be the best starting point).

Just some ideas...

I dunno though, it does seem the line between the mid and top tier of the upper level characters is a thin line. I'm just making a case for Supes, he's been very very impressive for the last several years, mostly since the build up to Our Worlds at War and especially so OYL.

Originally posted by Mindship
Would it be easier to say who goes where if some kind of defining criteria were established beforehand, for example, how a character typically uses their powerset? In fact, let everyone make suggestions as to what the defining criteria should be and let's vote. Once we have agreement here, I would think this might minimize fanboyism and make overall placement easier.

Also, seems like the number of tiers is growing because everyone is trying to accommodate small distinctions between characters (eg, Superman vs Wonder Woman). This also breeds Who-Goes-Where friction.

It might be best, perhaps, to establish a simple placement criteria, then arranging characters in a limited number of tiers (I do like Newjak's 3x3 approach as a finished product, but leonidas's initial 5 levels might be the best starting point).

Just some ideas...

✅

The naming for Leo's tiers was also preferable IMO since it didn't imply the same negativity for people at the bottom.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
✅

The naming for Leo's tiers was also preferable IMO since it didn't imply the same negativity for people at the bottom.

I prefer it this way. There should be some negativity. The lowest of the low really aren't terribly impressive in terms of their skills and power sets.

...

Also, what has Sentry done that suggests he's NOT in the High Top-tier? I wouldn't mind seeing him bumped up. Same with Cpt. Atom. He's been the center of controversy, but I could justify Mid Top-tier for him.

Same with Apollo, Graviton, and Loki. All are likely Mid Top-tier, and would destroy nearly anyone in their current level.

Originally posted by Juntai
I don't see it. I believe he does have more raw power than those guys, and his showings seem to support it. Superman is a universe saver many times over and has fought off gods and goddesses and stuff.

Even guys like Green Lantern when they see Superman stop holding back are merely left in awe, despite the power they wield.

His normal operating level may be similar to those mid high tier guys -- as is the case with several of the high tier characters and not just Superman -- but you said 'cut loose', and when he wants to, he has no problem leveling up beyond those mid guys, and does so consistantly -- and by consistantly, I mean month in and month out -- so it shouldn't be said that these are merely his rare good showings as they are with many of the good showings of the mid-tiers, hell, he even levels past many of those high tier characters. Which is why I think he belongs there.

The only thing I see he lacks over a lot of the guys in high tier is versaility 'plot device' power, which he makes up for in sheer ingenuity and application of power.

Just since OYL[One Year Later] alone, someone needs their hands and toes -- or maybe more -- to count Supermans amazing feats, he's barely slowed down at all. Collecting most of DC's titles each weak, I haven't seen a character more impressive at all. Anyone who's been reading will certainly know what I'm talking about.

But honestly there is a difference between Superman cutting loose and Superman winning because of Plot.

And last time I checked Thor and SS all go toe to toe with Gods and I would also like to point out that most of these Gods Superman fights I have a lot of trouble believing they are quite the skyfather abstract ideals many people try to paint them out to be.

And to be honest besides a few times like the Imperiox Probes I never seen Superman cut loose where I thought in the same scenario Thor or Silver Surfer or a Non-Jobbing GL couldn't have done much much better.

And to date Glads is just as impressive as Superman save a few Earth Visits and generally does better than his power set would allow also.

Majestic has done pretty much every feat Superman could, anf Beta Ray Bill has done very similar things to Supes.

I don't see how those guys can be at a certain level and Supes be any higher than them. I know he has a Icon status and DC just generally lets him win but honestly Supes has never been that impressive in power compared to many of the other top-tier people as far as I'm concerned.

Also as for Universe saving I could point many heroes through out the various Tiers have saved the Universe plenty of times. Supes has just been around longer than most so he has a few m,ore under his belt. Along with the fact he is DC's flagship so he gets a little more push then others in time of crisis.

To date though regular Superman(which we are going by normal appearances along with some implied power) is that he not any more impressive then some of the other Mid Top-Tier people.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I prefer it this way. There should be some negativity. The lowest of the low really aren't terribly impressive in terms of their skills and power sets.

...

Also, what has Sentry done that suggests he's NOT in the High Top-tier? I wouldn't mind seeing him bumped up. Same with Cpt. Atom. He's been the center of controversy, but I could justify Mid Top-tier for him.

I could see bumping up CA to Mid top-tier.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I prefer it this way. There should be some negativity. The lowest of the low really aren't terribly impressive in terms of their skills and power sets.

I think that someone discoveing a favorite character is in LowHighTier will focus on the Low part rather than that the character is in the TopTier.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I think that someone discoveing a favorite character is in LowHighTier will focus on the Low part rather than that the character is in the TopTier.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I think that someone discoveing a favorite character is in LowHighTier will focus on the Low part rather than that the character is in the TopTier.

Then that's their problem. If someone is whiny about having a character associated with the word "low", chances are they shouldn't really have much input into our list.

Originally posted by Newjak
Then those people need to learn to look past their bias to begin with instead of focusing on the name of a tier. 😬

I'm just telling you what I think will happen.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm just telling you what I think will happen.

I think leo had a good idea,but how is this going to effect anything on these boards? in what capacity for what reason?
i tried to follow it and made a suggestion or two,but with all the changes to not only the characters position in the tiers but to the tiers themselves and pages of insults,where is this going to lead to?

Tournaments or its just for kicks?