I don't think I ever discussed Gladiator in this this thread.
Superman is where is he is simply because he, more than any other character, embodies what it means to be the best. It's not about powersets (another discussion we had) but rather how good the character is shown as being on average.
I think the problem for some people is that we're not using the KMC rules of No PIS/CIS when we made this list. PIS and CIS are very much taken into account. That's why Orion isn't in the Top Top Tier. He's been almost totally unimpressive for years now.
What I'm not understanding is why this only comes up with the Superman types. Nobody seems to have a problem with Beta Ray Bill being listed below Thor or Guy and John being listed below Hal, Kyle and Alan. It's the exact same thing.
Transcendent:
Amazo, Black Racer, Blackheart, Circe, Death Urge, Despero, The Doctor, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange (classic), Eclipso, Elders of the Universe (minus Ego), Fernus, The General (Shaggy Man), Gog, Gray Man, High Evolutionary, Ion (current), The Keeper, King Thor, Mangog, Mogo(?), Mongul I (Pre Crisis), Nightmare, Onimar Synn, Onslaught, Resurrection Man 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Stayne, Sun Eater, Superboy Prime, Superman 1 Million, Takion, Tanaraq, Thanos, Tyrant (powered down), Validus
Top-Tier
High Top-Tier:
Adam Warlock, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Doomsday, Genis-Vell, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Infinity-Man, Majestic, Moonstone (w/ both stones), The Silver Surfer, Spartan 3.0, Stardust, Superman, Superman Blue/Red, Thor
Middle Top-Tier:
Alexander Nero, Beta Ray Bill, Binary, Black Adam, Cable (Full Power), Captain Atom, Captain Marvel (DC), Cyborg Superman, Black Bolt, The Eradicator, The Fallen One, Firelord, The Flash III (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), The Fury, General Zod, Gladiator, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Hyperion, Jack of Hearts, Kid Omega, Martian Manhunter, Maxima, Mon-El, Morg, Mr. M, Nate Grey, , Orion, Quasar, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Red Shift, The Sentry, Sersi, Sinestro, Skreet, Supergirl, Supreme, Swamp Thing, Terrax the Tamer, Void, Waverider, Wildfire, Wonder Woman,
Low Top-Tier:
Absorbing Man, Air Walker, Animal Man, Apocalypse, Apollo, The Atom, Bizarro Superman, Breach, Cassandra Nova, Cir-El, Count Nefaria, Darkness, Darwin, Death Metal, Dr. Invincible, Dr. Light, Dr. Polaris, Drax The Destroyer, Engineer, Etrigan, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Firestorm, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Gamora (w/Godslayer), Gilgamesh, Gorilla Grodd, Graviton, He-Man, Hector Hammond, Holocaust, Hulk, Iceman, Isis, Jade, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Jericho, Juggernaut (Classic), Kalibak, Lightray, Living Monolith, Lobo, Loki, Lunatik, Magneto, Major Force, Makkari, Manchester Black, Mar-Vell, Matrix Supergirl, Meggan, Mongul, Monica Rambeau (Pulsar), Nova (Frankie Raye), Nova Richard Rider (current), Prime, Professor X, Raven, The Ray, Red Tornado, Ronan the Accuser, Saturn Girl, Selene (External), Shadow King, Shaman, Starhawk, Super Skrull, Superboy, Tempest, Ultra Boy, Union, Vulcan, Winter,
Mid-Tier
High Mid-Tier:
Abomination, Aquaman, Ares (Marvel), Atlas, Aurora, Blastaar, Blob, Captain Britain, Captain Marvel Jr, Colossus, Donna Troy, Doom, Emma Frost, Ghost Rider II, Grim Reaper, Guardian I, Hercules (Mortal), The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Iron-Man, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Juggernaut (Depowered), Kang, Karate Kid, Living Laser, Mandarin, Mary Marvel, Maul, Metallo, Mimic (Exiles), Miss Martian, Mr. Fantastic, Mr. Sinister, Namor the Sub-Mariner, Nimrod, Northstar, Osiris, Pitt, Plastic-Man, Polaris, Power Girl, Psylocke, Sand, Sasquatch, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Temugin, The Thing, Thunderstrike, The Tick, Ulik, Ultimo, Ultron, Vision, War Machine, Wonder Man, Zzaxx
Middle Mid-Tier:
Aegis, Atom Smasher, Attuma, Balder, Beast Boy, Bishop, Blink, Blue Devil, Bombshell, Booster Gold, Box, Carnage, Cloak, Crystal, Cyborg, Cyclops, Death's Head II, Dust, Electro, Elijah Snow, Ghost Rider, Grace Choi, Havok, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hellion, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Jenny Sparks, Kymaera/Namorita, Lightning Lad, M.O.D.O.K., Moonstone, Morlun, Ms. Marvel, Nico Minoru, Ogun, Omega Red, Quicksilver (classic), Radioactive Man, Rogue, Shadowcat, Shift, Steel, Terra, Thunder, Toxin, Vance Astro, Wonder Girl
Low Mid-Tier:
3-D Man, Ambrose Chase, Angel, Arachne, Arana, Azrael, Beast, Black Canary, Black Tarantula, Blade, Bruenor Battlehammer, Century, Charcoal, Charlie 27, Constrictor, Creeper, Dagger, Deathlok, Deathstroke the Terminator, Doc Ock, Drizzt Do'Urden, Elixer, Falcon, Firehawk, Gambit, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Iron Fist, Jakita Wagner, Karnak, Kid Devil, Killer Croc, Klaw, Lady Deathstrike, Longshot, Luke Cage, Machine Man, Man-Bat, Mercury, Midnighter, Mister Hyde, Molly Hayes, Mysterio, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Nova Richard Rider (classic), Nuke, Orka Humbug, Prometheus, Protocide, Puck, Puma, Rage, Rom, Sabretooth, Shang Chi, Silver Samurai, Speedball, Speedfreek, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Swift, Tombstone, Triathalon, Vance Astro, Vanguard, Venom, Vermin, Victor Mancha, Vulture, Warlock (Technarchy/Phalanx), Warpath, Wizard, Wolverine, Wulfgar
Low-Tier:
High Low-Tier:
Bane, Batgirl, Batman, Black Cat, Black Panther, Blacklash, Bronze Tiger, Bullseye, Captain America, The Cat, Daredevil, Elektra, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Joker, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Ravager, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Taskmaster, X-23
Middle Low-Tier:
Arsenal/Red Arrow, Baron Zemo, Deadshot, Echo, Grifter, Misty Knight, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Punisher, Ra's Al Ghul, Turok, Wildcat
Low Low-Tier:
Batroc, Black Widow, Catwoman, Colleen Wing, Crossbones, Night Thrasher, Penguin, The Question, Riddler, Robin, Talia, White Tiger
Moved Doomsday up to High Top Tier. Addition of Warlock and Warpath to Low Mid Tier.
John Stewart receives too much hate. He did ascend to becoming the Master Builder after all...
Originally posted by Validus
What I'm not understanding is why this only comes up with the Superman types. Nobody seems to have a problem with Beta Ray Bill being listed below Thor or Guy and John being listed below Hal, Kyle and Alan. It's the exact same thing.
Originally posted by Validus
And Superman just isn't flat out superior to every other flying brick out there? I'm calling BS if you say no. The guy is portrayed as superior to every damn hero in the DCU except for the 2 or 3 times a year when some other hero will get some props. You can't say the same for Gladiator.
Originally posted by Priest
Not compared to Majestic, and Superman Blue...Superman should loose more often than not, but since this list is taking CIS into account i can live with it.
Originally posted by darthgoober
You might consider posting the rules concerning alteration of the list to keep people from doing that. Just a suggestion(not trying to but in or anything)...
val, if you come up with the rules, digi could just edit the first page and add them. that was what i was PLANNING on doing. that way the rules are in the first post and don't need to be copied and pasted with each list bump.
just a thought.
Transcendent:
Amazo, Black Racer, Blackheart, Circe, Death Urge, Despero, The Doctor, Dr. Fate I, Dr. Strange (classic), Eclipso, Elders of the Universe (minus Ego), Fernus, The General (Shaggy Man), Gog, Gray Man, High Evolutionary, Ion (current), The Keeper, King Thor, Mangog, Mogo(?), Mongul I (Pre Crisis), Nightmare, Onimar Synn, Onslaught, Resurrection Man 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Stayne, Sun Eater, Superboy Prime, Superman 1 Million, Takion, Tanaraq, Thanos, Tyrant (powered down), Validus
Top-Tier
High Top-Tier:
Adam Warlock, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Doomsday, Dr. Fate IV, Genis-Vell, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan, Kilowag), Infinity-Man, Majestic, Moonstone (w/ both stones), The Silver Surfer, Spartan 3.0, Stardust, Superman, Superman Blue/Red, Thor
Middle Top-Tier:
Alexander Nero, Beta Ray Bill, Binary, Black Adam, Cable (Full Power), Captain Atom, Captain Marvel (DC), Cyborg Superman, Black Bolt, The Eradicator, The Fallen One, Firelord, The Flash III (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), The Fury, General Zod, Gladiator, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Hyperion, Martian Manhunter, Maxima, Mon-El, Morg, Mr. M, Nate Grey, Orion, Quasar, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Red Shift, The Sentry, Sersi, Sinestro, Skreet, Supergirl, Supreme, Swamp Thing, Terrax the Tamer, Void, Waverider, Wildfire, Wonder Woman, Zoom II
Low Top-Tier:
Absorbing Man, Air Walker, Animal Man, Apocalypse, Apollo, The Atom, Bizarro Superman, Breach, Cassandra Nova, Cir-El, Count Nefaria, Darkness, Darwin, Death Metal, Dr. Invincible, Dr. Light, Dr. Polaris, Drax The Destroyer, Engineer, Etrigan, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Firestorm, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Gamora (w/Godslayer), Geo-Force, Gilgamesh, Gorilla Grodd, Graviton, He-Man, Hector Hammond, Holocaust, Hulk, Iceman, Isis, Jack of Hearts, Jade, Jericho, Juggernaut (Classic), Kalibak, Kid Omega, Lightray, Living Monolith, Lobo, Loki, Lunatik, Magneto, Major Force, Makkari, Manchester Black, Mar-Vell, Matrix Supergirl, Meggan, Mongul, Monica Rambeau (Pulsar), Nova (Frankie Raye), Nova Richard Rider (current), Prime, Professor X, Raven, The Ray, Red Tornado, Ronan the Accuser, Saturn Girl, Selene (External), Shadow King, Shaman, Starhawk, Super Skrull, Superboy, Tempest, Ultra Boy, Union, Vulcan, Winter,
Mid-Tier
High Mid-Tier:
Abomination, Aquaman, Ares (Marvel), Atlas, Aurora, Blastaar, Blob, Captain Britain, Captain Marvel Jr, Colossus, Donna Troy, Doom, Emma Frost, Ghost Rider II, Grim Reaper, Guardian I, Hercules (Mortal), The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Iron-Man, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Juggernaut (Depowered), Kang, Karate Kid, Living Laser, Mandarin, Mary Marvel, Maul, Metallo, Mimic (Exiles), Miss Martian, Mr. Fantastic, Mr. Sinister, Namor the Sub-Mariner, Nimrod, Northstar, Osiris, Pitt, Plastic-Man, Polaris, Power Girl, Psylocke, Sand, Sasquatch, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Temugin, The Thing, Thunderstrike, The Tick, Ulik, Ultimo, Ultron, Vision, Vixen, War Machine, Wonder Man, Zzaxx
Middle Mid-Tier:
Aegis, Atom Smasher, Attuma, Balder, Beast Boy, Bishop, Blink, Blue Devil, Bombshell, Booster Gold, Box, Carnage, Cloak, Crystal, Cyborg, Cyclops, Death's Head II, Dust, Electro, Elijah Snow, Ghost Rider, Grace Choi, Havok, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hellion, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Jenny Sparks, Kymaera/Namorita, Lightning Lad, M.O.D.O.K., Moonstone, Morlun, Ms. Marvel, Nico Minoru, Ogun, Omega Red, Quicksilver (classic), Radioactive Man, Rogue, Shadowcat, Shift, Steel, Terra, Thunder, Toxin, Vance Astro, Wonder Girl
Low Mid-Tier:
3-D Man, Ambrose Chase, Angel, Arachne, Arana, Azrael, Beast, Black Canary, Black Tarantula, Blade, Bruenor Battlehammer, Century, Charcoal, Charlie 27, Constrictor, Creeper, Dagger, Deadpool, Deathlok, Deathstroke the Terminator, Doc Ock, Drizzt Do'Urden, Elixer, Falcon, Firehawk, Gambit, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Iron Fist, Jakita Wagner, Karnak, Kid Devil, Killer Croc, Klaw, Lady Deathstrike, Longshot, Luke Cage, Machine Man, Man-Bat, Mercury, Midnighter, Mister Hyde, Molly Hayes, Mysterio, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Nova Richard Rider (classic), Nuke, Orka Humbug, Prometheus, Protocide, Puck, Puma, Rage, Rom, Sabretooth, Shang Chi, Silver Samurai, Speedball, Speedfreek, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Swift, Tombstone, Triathalon, Vance Astro, Vanguard, Venom, Vermin, Victor Mancha, Vulture, Warlock (Technarchy/Phalanx), Warpath, Wizard, Wolverine, Wulfgar
Low-Tier:
High Low-Tier:
Bane, Batgirl, Batman, Black Cat, Black Panther, Blacklash, Bronze Tiger, Bullseye, Captain America, The Cat, Daredevil, Elektra, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Joker, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Ravager, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Taskmaster, X-23
Middle Low-Tier:
Arsenal/Red Arrow, Baron Zemo, Deadshot, Echo, Grifter, Misty Knight, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Punisher, Ra's Al Ghul, Turok, Wildcat
Low Low-Tier:
Batroc, Black Widow, Catwoman, Colleen Wing, Crossbones, Night Thrasher, Penguin, The Question, Riddler, Robin, Talia, White Tiger
Added Kilowag to top tier because putting him on the same level as John and Guy and putting him underneath pre-Ion Kyle is both wrong and ugly.
Broke up the two most popular Fate's.
Oh boy, now there's a tough one. Hyperstorm is hard to call since he doesn't have alot of appearances. Depending on who's telling the story, he either stalemated Galactus, was turned into lunch by him or the two were locked into some kind of energy feedback.
Pedigree and potential wise, he's high up. Transcendant might be accurate. But I don't know if he has the feats or issues to justify it. \
I don't know why it keeps being ignored, but I'm saying it again. Take the Fury off the list. He's way too high to be listed as just mid top-tier.
I think Holocaust should be dropped a rank. He's got alot of losses on his record.
Originally posted by leonidas
val, if you come up with the rules, digi could just edit the first page and add them. that was what i was PLANNING on doing. that way the rules are in the first post and don't need to be copied and pasted with each list bump.just a thought.