Originally posted by MindshipI think more accurately:
Bible = part Rorschach test
Bible Prophecy = part Rorschach test
I think that the Bible as a whole is more like a person. Very plain as to various things, and yet some things are beyond the scope of proper study/understanding as the internal constructs are. Thus you also have the skeptic that says, "mind, pfaw, no real evidence for such a thing."
Originally posted by Devil KingHe's in error. Categorically: Being without exception or qualification; absolute. If the prophecy of one like Moses categorically referenced Jesus, the Jews would have followed him. As it is, the Jews believed such prophecies did not reference Jesus, thus the prophecies did not categorically reference Jesus.
Thanks, you've really cleared it all up.
Originally posted by Regret
Then, doesn't Brigham Young and his experiences with the LDS not appear to be more than coincidence? Or do these theologians draw the line at someone that doesn't follow their dogmatic traditions?
Not really, particularly when you look at LDS doctrine and how much it contradicts scripture. You'll generally find that those truly called to prophecy within the scripture, are generally those the least likely to want to be prophets and the least likely to reveal themselves as such.
They will also present information that compliments the scripture without really adding to it or taking away from it. Unfortunately, both Mormonism and Islam tend to do both of these things - which is why neither Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, nor Muhammad were true prophets of God.
If you think about it logically, who would really run at the opportunity of being a prophet? Just by looking at the stories of Elijah, Eziekiel, and Moses anyone can see that the prophet's life is a difficult one. Moses had the right attitude when intimidated with God's request. He fully understood that leading people and being a representative of God was not something that could be taken lightly.
Re: A prophet like Moses
Originally posted by muslimscholar
I read that in the bible it says there will be a prophet that will be like Moses and Christians believe it is Jesus?
This is actually one of the reasons jews don't think that jesus was the messiah. The prophecy states that the meshiah is not the son of god, but is one born of man, without foreskin who will free the chosen people from oppression. Jesus doesn't fit this. He never freed anyone from a oppression, he is the supposed son of god, and he had a bris so therefore, he is not the messiah/meshiah.
Originally posted by ThundarMore correctly stated: "When you look at LDS doctrine and how much it contradicts mainstream Christianity's dogmatic traditions." LDS doctrines only conflict with mainstream Christianity's dogmatic traditions, not with the Bible. They conflict with these traditional interpretations of the Bible, not the Bible.
Not really, particularly when you look at LDS doctrine and how much it contradicts scripture.
Originally posted by Thundar You'll generally find that those truly called to prophecy within the scripture, are generally those the least likely to want to be prophets and the least likely to reveal themselves as such.Yes, perhaps in general this is true, but we are speaking of a prophet "like Moses" not like the other prophets.
Originally posted by ThundarLol, define scripture without the term Bible. The Bible is a collection of books added to the Christian Canon following the deaths of the apostles.
They will also present information that compliments the scripture without really adding to it or taking away from it. Unfortunately, both Mormonism and Islam tend to do both of these things - which is why neither Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, nor Muhammad were true prophets of God.
And, I must come to a complete disagreement with you as to your view of Moses, Moses caused the first "addition" to scripture. He is the one that set in motion the written account, prior to him the Hebrew religion was a verbal tradition. A prophet like Moses would be similar.
But then, no man has ever truly added to scripture. God speaks and anything he has spoken is scripture. Who are you, or any other "Christian", to say when and where God may stop speaking? There is no Biblical reference to an ending of prophets, such is assumed by the group of people with whom God did not speak, the "Christians" following the death of the last apostle.
Now, you have entirely responded in the affirmative to "do these theologians draw the line at someone that doesn't follow their dogmatic traditions?" A position you wholly support. Now, Joseph Smith, and all the prophets have one thing in common, Christ himself stated it:
Luke 4: 24
24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
And neither have they.
Originally posted by ThundarYes, again, in general this is true, but we are speaking of a prophet "like Moses" not like the other prophets. You are making statements without base, none of the recent prophets have taken being the representative of God lightly. The supposed "Christians" no longer listen to God, as they have turned deaf ears on the possibility of God's speaking to them in their time. The LDS have not taken God lightly, mainstream "Christianity" has.
If you think about it logically, who would really run at the opportunity of being a prophet? Just by looking at the stories of Elijah, Eziekiel, and Moses anyone can see that the prophet's life is a difficult one. Moses had the right attitude when intimidated with God's request. He fully understood that leading people and being a representative of God was not something that could be taken lightly.
Re: Re: A prophet like Moses
Originally posted by Darth JelloBut, this is a matter of interpretational differences. This is a problem no one seems to grasp. The Jews are correct, Jesus' coming did not fit their interpretation of the prophecies. Also, the prophecies do not give time lines, it is entirely possible various events will happen in the future. Now, as to being man or son of God, the prophesies are silent, it is assumed by the Jews that he will be a man due to their view of what God is. Bottom line, interpretational differences are all that exist between most Hebrew based religions, the scriptures do not themselves conflict with most views if interpreted by that view.
This is actually one of the reasons jews don't think that jesus was the messiah. The prophecy states that the meshiah is not the son of god, but is one born of man, without foreskin who will free the chosen people from oppression. Jesus doesn't fit this. He never freed anyone from a oppression, he is the supposed son of god, and he had a bris so therefore, he is not the messiah/meshiah.
Originally posted by muslimscholar
How is moses like jesus when moses is a prophet and according to you jesus is god
Jesus walked the earth as true God (in nature) but functioned as a man (in terms of his humanity). But Jesus also functioned as a Teacher, and Prophet of God. Jesus is like Moses in terms of being a Prophet who speaks the Words of God.
Luke 24:19
And He said to them, “What things?” So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,
John 3:34
For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God , for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
John 4:44
For Jesus Himself testified that a prophet has no honor in his own country.
John 6:14
Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.”
Originally posted by Regret
More correctly stated: "When you look at LDS doctrine and how much it contradicts mainstream Christianity's dogmatic traditions." LDS doctrines only conflict with mainstream Christianity's dogmatic traditions, not with the Bible. They conflict with these traditional interpretations of the Bible, not the Bible.
Most of the LDS doctrine greatly conflicts with not just mainstream Christianity, but also with what's written within the scriptures. Still, as it has been mentioned and confirmed in other threads - many non-Christians(at least non-Christians in a scriptural sense) will be deemed as followers of Christ by their loving fulfillment of the law - rather than having a complete understanding of the gospels.
Originally posted by Regret
Yes, again, in general this is true, but we are speaking of a prophet "like Moses" not like the other prophets. You are making statements without base, none of the recent prophets have taken being the representative of God lightly. The supposed "Christians" no longer listen to God, as they have turned deaf ears on the possibility of God's speaking to them in their time. The LDS have not taken God lightly, mainstream "Christianity" has.
I think you're reading way too much into the term "a prophet like Moses." Such a term could mean a lot of different things, and doesn't necessarily have to reflect one who is exactly like Moses was, or does the exact same things that Moses did. It could be referring to the same humility of character that Moses exhibited, it could refer to the works he performed, or it could mean something entirely different. We can't really be for certain. Only God knows the answer to this one. And as it has been generally found within the scriptures - those who dogmatically assign the title "prophet" to themselves or are defined as such by the popular masses - often times really aren't true prophets of God.
I decided to quote this because it's obviously been ignored.
Originally posted by lord xyz
It is Jewish faith that King David, will return and save the Jews. Those who believed it was Jesus became Christians, those who didn't, remained Jewish.It is Muslims who believe that there will be a third Prophet, Muhammed, where Moses is the second, and Abraham is the first.
Originally posted by ThundarI would laugh but such would be disrespectful of you. "...But also with what's written within the scriptures." You fail to grasp that the LDS Doctrine is based in the Bible, we merely interpret the text differently than yourself and the rest of mainstream Christianity, as well as hold that God continues to speak to man. You state that if we disagree with you, we are in disagreement with the Bible. This is false.
Most of the LDS doctrine greatly conflicts with not just mainstream Christianity, but also with what's written within the scriptures. Still, as it has been mentioned and confirmed in other threads - many non-Christians(at least non-Christians in a scriptural sense) will be deemed as followers of Christ by their loving fulfillment of the law - rather than having a complete understanding of the gospels.
Originally posted by ThundarAnd so, once again you state, "I don't know, but regardless of my not knowing, you are still wrong" You obviously have little knowledge of the prophets of the Bible. God called them, and they stood and proclaimed what God had told them, they did what God told them to do, and they still do.
I think you're reading way too much into the term "a prophet like Moses." Such a term could mean a lot of different things, and doesn't necessarily have to reflect one who is exactly like Moses was, or does the exact same things that Moses did. It could be referring to the same humility of character that Moses exhibited, it could refer to the works he performed, or it could mean something entirely different. We can't really be for certain. Only God knows the answer to this one. And as it has been generally found within the scriptures - those who dogmatically assign the title "prophet" to themselves or are defined as such by the popular masses - often times really aren't true prophets of God.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus walked the earth as true God (in nature) but functioned as a man (in terms of his humanity). But Jesus also functioned as a Teacher, and Prophet of God. Jesus is like Moses in terms of being a Prophet who speaks the Words of God.[B]Luke 24:19
And He said to them, “What things?” So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,John 3:34
For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God , for God does not give the Spirit by measure.John 4:44
For Jesus Himself testified that a prophet has no honor in his own country.John 6:14
Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” [/B]
Man god is god how can god turn himself in to human?
human and god are two completly diffrent people
Re: Re: A prophet like Moses
Originally posted by Darth Jello
This is actually one of the reasons jews don't think that jesus was the messiah. The prophecy states that the meshiah is not the son of god, but is one born of man, without foreskin who will free the chosen people from oppression. Jesus doesn't fit this. He never freed anyone from a oppression, he is the supposed son of god, and he had a bris so therefore, he is not the messiah/meshiah.
Darth Jello you wrote the following sentences:
This is actually one of the reasons jews don't think that jesus was the messiah.
The prophecy states that the meshiah is not the son of god,
but is one born of man, without foreskin
who will free the chosen people from oppression.
Jesus doesn't fit this.
He never freed anyone from a oppression,
he is the supposed son of god, and he had a bris so therefore, he is not the messiah/meshiah.
I will address each statement that you wrote one by one.
This is actually one of the reasons jews don't think that jesus was the messiah.
No, none of the reasons are why the Jews reject Jesus. The Jews rejection of Jesus is all part of God's plan (Read the Book of Romans chapter 11), but they will be saved if they put their faith in Jesus for salvation. God's ultimate plan is to save the world from their sins, not just His covenant people the Israelites (i.e. Jews). But God had a covenant with the Israelites so they had first right of refusal. They could accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and be saved from their sins. But they chose to reject Jesus. They wanted to attain righteousness with God by keeping the Law of Moses. They sought righteousness (i.e. salvation) through the works of the Law instead of by faith in Jesus Christ. So God then extended salvation to the Gentiles (i.e. all non-Jews, which was His plan all along). So at the moment the Jews seem as though they have been cast aside by God, but God has not given up on them. Trust me, read the eleventh chapter of the Book of Romans, it explains in detail what is truly going on.
The prophecy states that the meshiah is not the son of god,
No it doesn’t. Here is what Moses said (let us read it from the horses mouth as it were):
Deuteronomy 18:15
“The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,
Deuteronomy 18:18
I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
John 3:34
For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
No where in that “prophecy” did Moses say that the Messiah is not the Son of God. As you can see Darth Jello I went straight to the source instead of just asserting something was true or not true. Jesus fit every description that Moses gave.
but is one born of man, without foreskin
Again, where did you get this? You would do better to stick to the Scriptures (as I consistently strive to do) and support what you say with actual chapter and verse. Besides, Jesus Christ is born of a man. This expression simply means that He has a human side in addition to His divine side (Jesus is the Word made flesh i.e. God in human flesh or form). Jesus is born of a man (i.e. a human being) because He came into this world through the womb of Mary. Jesus received His human, flesh and blood body from Mary, but His Father is God. This miracle was accomplished so that Jesus (God) could die for the sins of humanity. Jesus needed a body in order to die because God is a Spirit.
Jesus lived under the Law of Moses which means that He was required to be circumcised, preferably on the eight day following His birth to prevent excessive bleeding. The blood clots optimally on the eighth day following birth. God knew this that is why He prescribed that males be circumcised on that day.
who will free the chosen people from oppression.
I do not know where you get your information from, but according to the Bible Jesus did everything that was prophesied of Him.
Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him
Luke 4:18
“ The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed ;
Jesus doesn't fit this.
No, Jesus doesn’t fit your unscriptural descriptions, but He does fit what Moses and other prophets prophesied about Him.
He never freed anyone from a oppression,
So oppression is limited to your definition of what oprression is Darth Jello, buddy ole' pal? You obviously don’t understand the ministry and purpose for which Jesus Christ was sent to earth. Jesus did not come to this planet to lead a political revolt or to occupy any political office or position. His purpose was to set captives free from the bondage of sin and spiritual death. In other words, Jesus ministry was mainly “spiritual” in scope and significance.
Matthew 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”
Darth Jello oppression is not limited to physical suffering, but manifests itself in a variety of ways. Jesus came to save the world from spiritual captivity (and oppression) to sin and satan. Jesus came to deliver us from the power of darkness and to transfer us from satan’s power and dominion into the Kingdom of God.
Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
Hebrews 2:14-15
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage .
Bondage and oppression are one and the same. So Jesus took care of physical and mental needs as well as spiritual needs. Jesus fed over 5,000 people on more than one occasion. Jesus restored a man back into his right mind. Jesus set captives (or oppressed people) free from demonic-possession, and every type/kind of sickness and disease that exists. Jesus set people free from various maladies, infirmities, blindness, deafness, muteness, illnesses, and other physical ailments and deformities. Jesus raised people from the dead (this proved that He has power over sin, the devil, and even death itself).
John 11:43-33
Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with grave clothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”
Matthew 4:23-24
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.
So, Darth Jello, don’t make the same mistake that Jesus’ disciples made in thinking that Jesus Christ is a political leader. The disciples thought that Jesus was going to lead a successful revolution against the Romans, put an end to Roman rule, and set up His Kingdom.
Acts 1:6
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
But that was never Jesus’ mission. Jesus will one day eradicate all human government and rule, and set up His Kingdom, but that is set for a later date (Read Revelation 19:11-21)
Jesus had to command Peter to put his sword away (he was ready to fight for and die for his “supposed” political leader). Again, that was never Jesus’ purpose.
Matthew 26:52
But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
John 18:11
So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?”
he is the supposed son of god, and he had a bris so therefore, he is not the messiah/meshiah.
I do not understand this statement so I am unable to respond to it adequately. However, Jesus is the Son of God, and yes He is the Mashiyach (i.e. Messiah or Anointed One).
Prophecies about Jesus the Christ
taken from
http://www.allabouttruth.org/messianic-prophecy.htm
• Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)
• A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)
• Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)
• Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)
• Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
• Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
• Herod´s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)
• Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)
• Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)
• Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
• Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
• Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16)
• Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)
• Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
• Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
• Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
• Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:
- rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)
- betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)
- sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)
- silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)
- being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)
- beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)
- spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)
- piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
- being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
- praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
- piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
- given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)
- no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
- buried in a rich man´s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
- casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)
• Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
• Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
• Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)
Originally posted by Regret
I would laugh but such would be disrespectful of you. "...But also with what's written within the scriptures." You fail to grasp that the LDS Doctrine is based in the Bible, we merely interpret the text differently than yourself and the rest of mainstream Christianity, as well as hold that God continues to speak to man. You state that if we disagree with you, we are in disagreement with the Bible. This is false.
Umm. We've kind of been over this in the Mormon thread. I mean you no disrespect, but I'm going to disregard it for the sake of staying on topic with this one. If you want to discuss why you think LDS doctrine and how it relates to the scriptures - please feel free to bump that thread.
Originally posted by Regret
God called them, and they stood and proclaimed what God had told them, they did what God told them to do, and they still do.
You are correct - most of them never really proclaimed themselves as prophets, but instead they just "proclaimed what God had told them" usually prefacing most of what they said with "this is what the Lord says" so the people would know that the words coming out of their mouths - and wasn't coming from themselves.
You seldom ever directy read of them referring to themselves as prophets before the people. Jesus himself rarely makes references to himself being "the prophet" or the "messiah" within the scriptures to the people, and I don't believe John the Baptist ever refers to himself as a prophet within theml(even though he clearly was one).
Originally posted by Darth Jello
i'm referring to the Tanach, the hebrew old testamnet. Anything from the new is completely irrelevant to my arguement and nothing you've quoted refutes it. Please refer to a song called "The Most Offensive Song Ever"
Can you provide chapter and verse for what you quoted?