A prophet like Moses

😆

Dragons.Now lets talk bigfoot,lochness,and the six headed..............

oh.Never mind!

Moses was talking about Jesus and later on there was [prophecy of the coming Elijah. And since Jesus is God the second head of the Trinity who knows his father he created everything for his father.

Also their was a prophecy coming of a prophet like him, most scholars believe it's Elijah, Elijah is one of the greatest prophets to every live and following the Bible he is coming back with Enoch before the second coming of Jesus which is prophecy. The Bible never talks or refers to Mohammad even though he is a decedent of Ishmael who is the son of Abraham.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Moses was talking about Jesus and later on there was [prophecy of the coming Elijah. And since Jesus is God the second head of the Trinity who knows his father he created everything for his father.

Also their was a prophecy coming of a prophet like him, most scholars believe it's Elijah, Elijah is one of the greatest prophets to every live and following the Bible he is coming back with Enoch before the second coming of Jesus which is prophecy. The Bible never talks or refers to Mohammad even though he is a decedent of Ishmael who is the son of Abraham.

That's interesting Darkone, I've never actually heard of that interpretation. I've always thought that the later prophecy was referring to more likely a second Moses or possible David. The bible does say though something along the lines of "and Elijah came first" so who knows, you could indeed be correct.

Prophecy is extremely difficult to determine, and is usually only recognized as being such(by man of course) after the prophecy has been fulfilled. I'd take a stab at saying that even the prophets really don't know what or who it is their prophecying about, seeing as how the words that come out of their mouths are really God's, not theirs.

Originally posted by Thundar
That's interesting Darkone, I've never actually heard of that interpretation. I've always thought that the later prophecy was referring to more likely a second Moses or possible David. The bible does say though something along the lines of "and Elijah came first" so who knows, you could indeed be correct.

Prophecy is extremely difficult to determine, and is usually only recognized as being such(by man of course) after the prophecy has been fulfilled. I'd take a stab at saying that even the prophets really don't know what or who it is their prophecying about, seeing as how the words that come out of their mouths are really God's, not theirs.

Look at this Thundar in John gospel Jesus even talks about Elijah is to come back first before the son of man second coming. Most scholars believe that it will be Enoch and Elijah since the Bible tells us that they never die and went to paradise alive.

Also there is prophecy of John the Baptist the for runner for Christ/Jesus, John the Baptist is Elijah in spirit. Elijah is one of the boldest of all the prophets, challenging Ba'al priest and stright embarrest the hell out of them and then killed them.

Originally posted by Thundar

Prophecy is extremely difficult to determine, and is usually only recognized as being such(by man of course) after the prophecy has been fulfilled. I'd take a stab at saying that even the prophets really don't know what or who it is their prophecying about, seeing as how the words that come out of their mouths are really God's, not theirs.

I agree prophecy is hard to determine, but you search the scripture it's there, but it does take alot of reading. Elijah is one of the baddest prophets ever in the bible in a good way if you now what I mean 😉, read 1 and 2nd Kings, and references in 2nd chronicles and Malachi.

Originally posted by Regret
Then, doesn't Brigham Young and his experiences with the LDS not appear to be more than coincidence? Or do these theologians draw the line at someone that doesn't follow their dogmatic traditions?

Originally posted by Regret
Then, doesn't Brigham Young and his experiences with the LDS not appear to be more than coincidence? Or do these theologians draw the line at someone that doesn't follow their dogmatic traditions?

According the Biblical description, Brigham Young does not fit. However, Jesus does.

Jesus knew God face to face, Jesus worked miracles. Elijah also fits this because of his ascension which is interesting when considering that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy.

Another similarity is that Moses came and gave the Law and Jesus fulfilled it, so that is very connected.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Deuteronomy 34:10-11
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, in all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land...

According the Biblical description, Brigham Young does not fit. However, Jesus does.

Jesus knew God face to face, Jesus worked miracles. Elijah also fits this because of his ascension which is interesting when considering that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy.

Another similarity is that Moses came and gave the Law and Jesus fulfilled it, so that is very connected.

👆 exactly.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Deuteronomy 34:10-11
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, in all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land...

According the Biblical description, Brigham Young does not fit. However, Jesus does.

Jesus knew God face to face, Jesus worked miracles. Elijah also fits this because of his ascension which is interesting when considering that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy.

Another similarity is that Moses came and gave the Law and Jesus fulfilled it, so that is very connected.

The prophecy is not to connectedness, only to "like" one another. Also, you are forgetting my original statement:

Originally posted by Regret
The LDS believe this may have been Christ, due to his expounding on the Law of Moses.

We also believe it possibly was a reference to Brigham Young and the expelling of the LDS from the United States and the Trek west to Utah.

I have slight issue with a Trinitarian holding the belief that the prophecy refers to Christ due to the following portion of it:

Deuteronomy 18:18
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

I believe that Christ is the prophet spoken of, but I believe that existence and prophecy are repetitive. The Earth died and was resurrected with the flood, Baptism in general, Abraham and Isaac on the Mountain, general sacrifice, sacrament, Joseph requiring Benjamin as a sacrifice for the salvation of the Tribe of Israel, etc. all symbolic representation of Christ's sacrifice. Many other Gospel concepts may also be viewed as repeatedly symbolized in the Bible. I also believe in symmetry of history, or a mirroring effect around Christ. With various events coinciding in some manner around the greatest event in Christian theology. Given this, another symbol is not unexpected.

I never said that you were wrong, just that Bringham Young doesn't fit. And as I admitted it could apply to others (well Elijah is pretty much the only other), just not Young. Also notice that the land of Egypt is not attached to the likeness of Moses, only the existence of miracles. Another thing to consider is that Moses never lead the Hebrews to the promised land, Joshua did, which makes it different than Bringham Young as well.

I'm not Trinitarian perse. I have stated before that I follow a modalic or Sabellenistic view of the Trinity.

God and Jesus would know each other face to face (the whole seated at the right hand thing). Elijah as well considering his ascension and the transfiguration...

And yes, there are repetitive themes, however, prophets seem very different.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I never said that you were wrong, just that Bringham Young doesn't fit. And as I admitted it could apply to others (well Elijah is pretty much the only other), just not Young. Also notice that the land of Egypt is not attached to the likeness of Moses, only the existence of miracles. Another thing to consider is that Moses never lead the Hebrews to the promised land, Joshua did, which makes it different than Bringham Young as well.

...

God and Jesus would know each other face to face (the whole seated at the right hand thing). Elijah as well considering his ascension and the transfiguration...

And yes, there are repetitive themes, however, prophets seem very different.

There are miracles tied with Brigham Young, here are a couple:

[list][*]The miracle of the gulls - Seagulls miraculously saved the 1848 crops by eating thousands of insects that were devouring their fields. [*]Various healings[*]His succession - When Young testified of the power and authority of the Twelve Apostles, many in the congregation recorded that Brigham Young's voice took on the sound of Joseph Smith's voice and that Brigham Young's face also appeared as the face of Joseph Smith.[/list]I don't know if he did or did not know God face to face. For me, it is not beyond possibility.

From an unbiased position how does he not fit? If you accept that the miracles I stated occurred, and acknowledge that Moses was supposed to lead the Israelites to the promised land (he only did not due to his failing), which I believe, you have to admit that you have not supplied sufficient evidence to threaten the possibility.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I'm not Trinitarian perse. I have stated before that I follow a modalic or Sabellenistic view of the Trinity.

Originally posted by muslimscholar
I read that in the bible it says there will be a prophet that will be like Moses and Christians believe it is Jesus?

Originally posted by debbiejo
No, it won't be Jesus. I think you're referring to the End Times prophecies where it says in the latter days two wittiness will come and bring down fire from the sky. Many people believe that these two people could be Elijah and Moses. They will eventually be killed and then resurrect and then descend to the sky and all the world will know they were from god. Others believe that this is more metaphorical meaning that the men actually represent the Law as in the OT and the 10 commandments, and the Spirit Of Prophecy pointing to Jesus meaning the NT. They being dressed in sack cloth some believe refers to the Bible not being read and has become of Poor use.

Deuteronomy 18:15-18
15 ¶ The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Let's get back on track (what Islam says and not what Mormonism says 😉 ).

Deuteronomy 18:15-18 is the scripture discussed. God promises Moses, "I will raise up for them [Israel] a Prophet like you from among their bretheren, and will put my words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him" (v. 18). Muslims believe this prophecy is fulfilled in Muhammad, as the Qur'an claims when it refers to "the unletterd Prophet [Muhammad], Whom they find mentioned in their own (Sriptures), in the Law and the Gospels" (7:157).

However, this prophecy could not be a reference to Muhammad for several reasons, First, it is clear that the term "brethren" means fellow Israelites. For the Jewish Levites wre told in the same passage that "they shall have no in heritance among their brethren" (v.2).

Second, since the term "brethren" refers to Israel, not to their Arab antagonists, why would God raise up for Israel a prophet from their enemies?

Third, elsewhere in this book the term "brethren" also means fellow Israelites, not foreigners. God told the Jews to chose a king "from among your brethren," not a "foreigner" (Deut. 17:15). Israel never chose a non-Jewish king.

Fourth, Muhammad came from Ishmael, as even Muslims adit, and heirs to the Jewish throne came from Isaac. According to the Torah, when Abraham prayed, "oh that Ishmael might live before You!" God answered emphatically, "My covenant I will establish with Isaac" (Gen 17:21). Later God repeated, "In Isaac your seed shall be called" (Gen. 21:12).

Fifth, the Qur'an itself states that the prophetic line came through Isaac, not Ishmael: "And We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and We established the Prophethood and the Scripture among his seed" (29:27). The Muslim scholar Yusef Ali adds the word "Abraham" and changes the meaning as follows: "We gave (Abraham) Issac and Jacob, and ordained Among his progeny Prophethood And Revelation." By adding Abraham, the father if Ishmael, he can include Muhammad, a descendant of Ishmael, in the prophetic line! But Abraham's name is not found in the Arabic text of the Qu'ran, which Muslims consider to be perfectly preserved.

Sixth, according to the earliest authentic documents, Jesus, not Muhammad, completely fulfilled this verse, since he was from among his Jewish brethren (cf. Gal. 4:4). He also fulfilled Deuteronomy 18:18 perfectly: "He shall speak to them all that I [God] command Him." Jesus said "I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things" (John 8:28). And, "I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak" (John 12:49). He called himself a "prophet" (Luke 13:33), and the people considered him a prophet (Matt. 21:11; Luke 7:16; 24:19; John 4:19; 6:14; 7:40; 9:17). As the Son of God, Jesus was prophet (speaking to men for God), priest (Heb 7-10, speaking to God form men), and kind (reigning over men for God, Rev. 19-20).

Finally, there are other characteristics of the "Prophet" to come that fit only Jesus, not Muhammad. These include things like speaking with God "face to face" and performing "signs and wonders," which Muhammad admitted he did not so.

The next verse he will want to throw at me is Deuteronomy 33:2
"He said, "The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones; At His right hand there was flashing lightning for them. "

Many Islamic scholars believe that this verse predicts three separate visitations of God: one on "Sinai" to Moses, another to "Seir" through Jesus, and a third in "Paran" (Arabia) through Muhammad who came to Mecca with an army of "ten thousand".

However, this contention can be easily answered by looking a a map of the area. Paran and Seir are near Egypt in the Sinai peninsula (cf. Gen. 14:6; Num. 10:12; 12:16-13:3; Deut 1:1), not in Palestine where Jesus ministered. Nor was Paran near Mecca, but hundreds of miles away in southern Palestine in the northeastern Sinai.

Furthermore, this verse is speaking the the "Lord" coming, not Muhammad. And the Lord is coming with "ten thousand saints," not ten shousand soldiers, as Muhammad did. There is no basis in this text for the Muslim contention that it is a prediction of Muhammad.

Finally, this prophecy is said to be one "with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death" (Deut. 33:1). If it were a prediction about Islam, which has been a constanct enemy of Israel, it could scarcely have been a blessing to Israel. In fat the chapter goes on to pronounce a blessing on each of the tribes of Israel by God, who "will thrust out the enemy" (v. 27).

Deuteronomy 34:10
"Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,"

Muslims argue that this proves that the predicted prophet could not be an Israelite but was Muhammad instead.

In response several things should be noted. First, the "since" means since Moses' death up until the time this last chapter was written, probably by Joshua. Even if Deuteronomy were written much later, as some critics believe, it still was composed many centuries before the time of Christ and, therefore, would not eliminate him.

Second, Jesus was the perfect fulfillment of this prediction of the prophet to come, not Muhammad (see my comments on
Deut. 18:15-18).

Third, this could not refer to Muhammad, since the prophet to come was like Moses who did "all the signs and wonders which the Lord sent" (Deut 34:11). Muhammad by his own confession did not perform signs and wonders like Moses and Jesus did (see 2:118; 3:183). Finally, the prophet to come was like Moses who spoke to God "face to face" (Deut. 34:10). Muhammad never even claimed to speak to God directly but got his revelations through an angel (see 25:32; 17:105). Jesus, on the other hand, like Moses, was a direct mediator (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb 9:150 who comunicated directly with God (cf. John 1:18; 12:39; 17). Thus, the prediction could not have referred to Muhammad, as many Muslims claim.

Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
Deuteronomy 34:10
"Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,"

Muslims argue that this proves that the predicted prophet could not be an Israelite but was Muhammad instead.

In response several things should be noted. First, the "since" means since Moses' death up until the time this last chapter was written, probably by Joshua. Even if Deuteronomy were written much later, as some critics believe, it still was composed many centuries before the time of Christ and, therefore, would not eliminate him.

Second, Jesus was the perfect fulfillment of this prediction of the prophet to come, not Muhammad (see my comments on
Deut. 18:15-18).

Third, this could not refer to Muhammad, since the prophet to come was like Moses who did "all the signs and wonders which the Lord sent" (Deut 34:11). Muhammad by his own confession did not perform signs and wonders like Moses and Jesus did (see 2:118; 3:183). Finally, the prophet to come was like Moses who spoke to God "face to face" (Deut. 34:10). Muhammad never even claimed to speak to God directly but got his revelations through an angel (see 25:32; 17:105). Jesus, on the other hand, like Moses, was a direct mediator (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb 9:150 who comunicated directly with God (cf. John 1:18; 12:39; 17). Thus, the prediction could not have referred to Muhammad, as many Muslims claim.

👆 exactly.

Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
The next verse he will want to throw at me is Deuteronomy 33:2
"He said, "The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones; At His right hand there was flashing lightning for them. "

Many Islamic scholars believe that this verse predicts three separate visitations of God: one on "Sinai" to Moses, another to "Seir" through Jesus, and a third in "Paran" (Arabia) through Muhammad who came to Mecca with an army of "ten thousand".

However, this contention can be easily answered by looking a a map of the area. Paran and Seir are near Egypt in the Sinai peninsula (cf. Gen. 14:6; Num. 10:12; 12:16-13:3; Deut 1:1), not in Palestine where Jesus ministered. Nor was Paran near Mecca, but hundreds of miles away in southern Palestine in the northeastern Sinai.

Furthermore, this verse is speaking the the "Lord" coming, not Muhammad. And the Lord is coming with "ten thousand saints," not ten shousand soldiers, as Muhammad did. There is no basis in this text for the Muslim contention that it is a prediction of Muhammad.

Finally, this prophecy is said to be one "with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death" (Deut. 33:1). If it were a prediction about Islam, which has been a constanct enemy of Israel, it could scarcely have been a blessing to Israel. In fat the chapter goes on to pronounce a blessing on each of the tribes of Israel by God, who "will thrust out the enemy" (v. 27).

very well put.

The point muslimscholar is getting to is that the Bible predicts Mohammed.

Originally posted by muslimscholar
it does tho and you know

no, it doesnt, first there will be the false prophets, and the proof is they died a normal death as the bible foretold. christians started to worship their prophet and muslims have build a temple on top of Mo Hammed's grave which he strongly advised not to do.
the real prophet is still to come and he wont die, but bring immortallity.

Originally posted by johannes
The point muslimscholar is getting to is that the Bible predicts Mohammed.

no, it doesnt, first there will be the false prophets, and the proof is they died a normal death as the bible foretold. christians started to worship their prophet and muslims have build a temple on top of Mo Hammed's grave which he strongly advised not to do.
the real prophet is still to come and he wont die, but bring immortallity.

muslims dont build temples for a start

which prophet is yet to come
and wont die is it not true for all other prophets have died? for prophets are humans?