Star Trek XI & Sequel News Thread

As I said, I don't care about your opinion on that or your accusation of arrogance. You are simply wrong and I have respect 'issues' with anyone who does not see the inherent laziness here.

A supernova that destroys Galaxies IS nonsense from any POV Jaden. Sorry, it just is. I'm amazed you are even vaguely trying to defend such arrant gibberish. Please don't make me have to spell out what an utterly dumb and ridiculous idea it is, and how that people could be believing of which would make physicists cry themselves to sleep.

Motivations of your villain are never irrelevant. Even if Nero's purpose was just to bugger up continuity, it is still evry important to the 'villain' role in films that they have discernable and rational motives, because that is just part of the whole basic frame of stories from the dawn of time. More to the point, they clearly TRIED to give him such a motivation. They just messed it up. I have no idea why you bring the word 'ongoing' into your argument, which only serves to demonstrate that you aren't understanding what I say (like your comment about Nero thinking Romulus destroyed in the past makes me think you didn't understand the film you were watching either. He doesn't think that). If you don't think a villain in a film has to make sense, then I simply despair. And knowing details about the Romulans is a mistake in any case, regardless of what Nero does. The Federation does not know about their shared ancestry, and no momentary contact from the Kelvin can change that.

Meanwhile, as I say, I completely disagree that a reboot was needed. It can all just be set before the Original Series, or between bits of it and there would be absolutely no problem at all. I am amazed how much people are deceiving themselves into thinking it was at all necessary. This whole aspect about such a reboot being necessary for new audiences is a total red herring. Just being set in the TOS time period was all it needed, It need't even reference the original series at all once ever... just being set then with the original crew. There is nothing- nothing at all- that the continuity reboot actually brings.

It is also reasonable of me to be peeved that most of what we have seen of Star Trek- most of the episodes, films etc. has now been overwritten and made irrelevant, 'it never hapepned', like a dream sequence. As I said in my post above, by internal Star Trek logic, this is what has happened.

I'm srory- the film does not make sense, and this is because of lazy plotting, and I will not forgive it that.

Ushgarak it's just a movie. Most Star Trek shows are silly and filled with holes that you could drive a mac truck through. You are absolutely right about the illogical shoe horned story line, however, I enjoyed the movie. I'm sorry you wasted your money.

There is a matter of scale. The lack of coherency here was too much even for a Trek film (and matters like having a mis-motivated villain impinge on the quality of any film)

But my real aggravation is because so much about the film was excellent. When ST V had its nonsense bits, it didn't matter as I was consigning the whole film to the dustbin. Undiscovered Country had an explosion crossing the Neutral Zone, which was another example of such nonsense, but there it had no bearing on the plot (because the only plot thing affected was the Klingon homeworld, which WAS in range of the explosion) and I could forgive it in a good film because it was just one thing at the very start to mock.

But whilst watching this film I was acutely aware of this drastic contrast between the quality of the acting, action, style and humour, all brilliant, with the plot. It really struck me... and I can't accept that it doesn't matter. There's only so much leeway and this went past the limit.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
There is a matter of scale. The lack of coherency here was too much even for a Trek film (and matetrs like having a mis-motivated villain impinge on the quality of any film)

But my real aggravation is because so much about the film was excellent. When ST V had its nonsense bits, it didn't matter as I was consigning the whole film to the dustbin. Undiscovered Country had an explosion crossing the Neutral Zone, which was another example of such nonsense, but there it had no bearing on the plot (because the only plot thing affected was the Klingon homeworld, which WAS in range of the explosion) and I could forgive it in a good film bewcause it was just one thing at the very start to mock.

But whilst watching this film I was acutely aware of this drastic contrast between the quality of the acting, action, style and humour, all brilliant. with the plot. It really struck me... and I can't accept that it doesn't matter. There's only so much leeway and this went past the limit.

i feel the same, tbh.

A supernova that destroys Galaxies IS nonsense from any POV Jaden. Sorry, it just is. I'm amazed you are even vaguely trying to defend such arrant gibberish. Please don't make me have to spell out what an utterly dumb and ridiculous idea it is, and how that people could be believing of which would make physicists cry themselves to sleep.

As I've already stated. The largest supernova observed outshone its entire host galaxy by a massive degree. The damage it would've caused would have been enormous. Granted, they don't have enough physical mass to destroy other matter but radiation of differing types may be enough to destroy life.

Meanwhile, as I say, I completely disagree that a reboot was needed. It can all just be set before the Original Series, or between bits of it and there would be absolutely no problem at all. I am amazed how much people are deceiving themselves into thinking it was at all necessary. This whole aspect about such a reboot being necessary for new audiences is a total red herring. Just being set in the TOS time period was all it needed, It need't even reference the original series at all once ever... just being set then with the original crew. There is nothing- nothing at all- that the continuity reboot actually brings.

We all know how popular Star Trek set before the original series was. It effectively killed off the Star Trek franchise and meant that for the 1st time in over 20 years, there was no original star trek episodes being made.

If it was set with the original timeline then everything would be set in stone as to what was going to happen. You could probably have gotten away with that had the series and film franchise been relatively small but what you're essentially proposing is the remaking of 6 films which no audience would ever bother to fork out money for.

Motivations of your villain are never irrelevant. Even if Nero's purpose was just to bugger up continuity, it is still evry important to the 'villain' role in films that they have discernable and rational motives,

Why would someone who is portrayed as irrational have rational motives?

I have no idea why you bring the word 'ongoing' into your argument, which only serves to demonstrate that you aren't understanding what I say (like your comment about Nero thinking Romulus destroyed in the past makes me think you didn't understand the film you were watching either. He doesn't think that)

He clearly does because it was explained to him that Romulus wasn't destroyed and that he could go and find out for himself. To which he replies that he watched it be destroyed with his own eyes.

It's not the 1st time that Star Trek has used the alternate reality either. An episode of Next generation had all the different enterprises popping into the cannon timeline...All with different versions of reality.

If you don't think a villain in a film has to make sense, then I simply despair. And knowing details about the Romulans is a mistake in any case, regardless of what Nero does. The Federation does not know about their shared ancestry, and no momentary contact from the Kelvin can change that.

Why isn't simple vengence enough of a motivation? The desire for vengence regardless of what time or reality he's in is enough of a motivation. He can't take his vengence out in his own timeline so why not in another? The Borg couldn't assimilate earth in "first contact" in the present so they tried it in the past. Effectively the same plot mechanism and first contact is regarded as one of the best of the Star trek franchise. Ironically, the Borg really don't have any motivation at all.

As I said, I don't care about your opinion on that or your accusation of arrogance. You are simply wrong and I have respect 'issues' with anyone who does not see the inherent laziness here.

Your respect isn't needed or wanted.

For a start, I do not like the idea of setting up a new continuity and erasing the old one (and if you are a Trek fan, don't even think about trying to say it is simply alternate, not replacing. (That is completely contrary to ALL TREK MATERIAL on this kind of thing so far). I don't think it was even slightly necessary to bring around the rejuvenation of the franchise, and if he hadn't done it I don't think anyone's opinions on its rejuvenation would be different.

"That is completely contrary to ALL TREK MATERIAL on this kind of thing so far"? did you watch star trek? alternative time-lines were frequent actually. Mirror Universe? The episode of TNG with the Enterprise C coming forward in time and resulting in the klingon-federation war continuing. How do we know the time-line we were following towards the end of the "original time-line" was even the original?

A supernova that threatens the Galaxy is pushing nonsense even for Trek; that it specifically destroy Romulus and not most the Galaxy as it would have to do so is also nonsense, that Spock brings some several thousand times the stuff he needs to stop it is nonsense.

why is that non-sense? supernovas are naturally and extremely destructive forces. if you've ever watched any documentaries about space, pictures from the Hubble telescope show supernovas thousands of years old spanning across thousands of light-years.

Then, as Spock arrives there and tries to stop the nova, he just so happens to run into Nero who promptly blames Spock... for some reason...

because he was late

then they fight and get moved across time by the resulting black hole- that's pushing it but within Trek limits- to completely different times

once again referencing the TNG episode where the Enterprise C is dragged into the future...that was a black-hole (aka. a worm hole)...

Immediately after arriving, with only some minutes having gone since Romulus was destroyed, Nero has apparently already gone completey nuts and destroys the first ship he runs into.

if you saw your planet destroyed in front of your eyes with promise of its preservation, something tells me you'd be pissed. also he lost everything he knew and loved, and was thrown 100 years or so back in time.

he then decides he will get revenge... for no reason I can work out... by waiting for Spock and then destroying every major world in the Federation, even though this won't actually save Romulus at all, nor can any reaqsonable line be drawn to him blaming the Federation or Spock, who was there TRYING TO STOP IT at the time.

and they failed. fail is usually followed by blame.

We are given no logical or plausible set-up as to why Nero is performing such random acts. His lione that he wanted a strong (i.e. Federation free) Romulus fits the motive for desttroyign the Federation but doesn;t actually do anyhting to SAVE Romulus and besides, past empowerment is inconsistent with the given motivation of revenge.

admittedly, him not returning to see if Romulus is there is confusing, but its not the Romulus that he knows...

Meanwhile, "he is mad" doesn't cut it. Mad with no purpose is just... shite. Even mad bad guys have to have some sort of running logic or plausiblity to their madness. Even The Joker gets to give his reasons, and he is as close as you can get to a motiveless madman.

he lost everything...and was thrown 100 or so years into the past...

Of course, having got the black hole stuff from Spock, he could then go and pre-emptively destroy the star and stop Romulus from being destroyed... but doesn't. Instead he dumps Spock on a planet... in a DIFFERENT STAR SYSTEM...

The planet Spock prime and Kirk were marooned on was a planet from the same solar system as Vulcan. As even before they went to warp, Kirk was beamed to the planet.

so Spock can watch Vulcan being destroyed, sonehow, because that will help Nero... somehow. He tells Pike later on when accused of genocide that he is, in fact, preventing one. How can I put this? NO HE IS NOT.

it's called twisted logic...he's getting revenge on the destruction of Romulus by destroying Vulcan. some could argue that his changing the time-line drastically like that, the destruction of Romulus could be affect and avoided.

...Spock who is on the planet so he can watch Vulcan being destroyed from... errr... light years away, and the... for Christ's sake, Scott is on the same random planet? That's the best they could do?[quote]

movie fluke. that was too random to be let to stay to be honest. i must agree with that...they just needed a way to introduce him.

[quote]This is appalling, lazy, fan fictionish plotting from start to end. It makes all the questions about tbne Nerada and how muich of its plot had to be put in comic book form or even just deleted film sequences, relative to its ability to destroy entire Klingon fleets etc. into the shade. They had certain ends in mind, and didn't think once about the horseshit methods they were using to get to those ends. It is very, VERY bad.

the graphic novel hasn't actually been labelled as canon yet, so it's whether people believe that is whether it will actually be considered for canon.

Christ, even Nemesis' villain actually had a fleshed out motivation that we could see put properly on screen, and that flm was freaking awful. In just five minutes of thinking I can come up with a score or more of motivations for Nero that would have made more darn sense than the nonsense given on film. Motivations that would give him direct reasons to think that destroying the Federation in the past would actually accomplish what he wants. Agaun, personally I would not have actually had him succeed at all as I am not at all in favour of the continuity reset, but I would have had his reasoning be actually comprehensible and not just... random.

None of this is pickiness. Contravening major canon is not a matter of pickiness. Leaving your major villain without a motivation that actually makes sense s not a matter of pickiness. Leaving gaping plot holes and logical non sequiturs throughout the film is not a matter of pickiness. It is ALL a matter of quality, and on those accounts it fails.

So, as I say- godawful plot. And to be frank- I AM right on this. This simply WAS lazy writing. I know many will disagree, but they are simply wrong.

i would say that it was nit picking. picking all of the parts you can't find a logical reasoning behind and telling everyone that it's wrong whether they like it or not. you would make, a brilliant movie critic, no doubt. unfortunately, forcing your views down peoples throats and saying anything they think is wrong, is wrong in itself.

especially on a subject where difference in opinion is expected and encouraged...

👆

YouTube video

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
YouTube video

"If i'd of wanted to see young and good looking people in action i would've gone to watch sport"

If Shatner wants to carry on being Kirk, fair enough, but to be honest, no-one wants to see a fat man dancing around - "if i'd of wanted to see a fat man dancing around i would've gone to an old folks home"

something tells me people are scared of change...

... It was a joke. It's not real.

Originally posted by Kinneary
... It was a joke. It's not real.

really? haha, now i feel stupid 😕

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
YouTube video

As for the supernova, it was explained in the lead up comic that it somehow gain energy with each star system it destroyed. Not like that makes anymore sense, but at least they tried.

I enjoyed the film enough to overlook plot holes, which were abundant. But I watch movies for entertainment and this filled the bill for me anyway.

Originally posted by Badabing

As for the supernova, it was explained in the lead up comic that it somehow gain energy with each star system it destroyed. Not like that makes anymore sense, but at least they tried.

Well I guess that's why they call it the blues....

I mean science-fiction.

I don't understand why people get picky with that but ignore the completely unexplained "red matter" though.

I also don't understand attacking that for being scientifically unrealistic but accepting faster than light travel, transporters and a whole host of other completely scientific nonsense.

Originally posted by jaden101
Well I guess that's why they call it the blues....

I mean science-fiction.

I don't understand why people get picky with that but ignore the completely unexplained "red matter" though.

I also don't understand attacking that for being scientifically unrealistic but accepting faster than light travel, transporters and a whole host of other completely scientific nonsense.

I mean I had some problems with the movie but still enjoyed the film. I can see where a Star Trek purist or maybe someone who hasn't watched the movies/shows much may have a problem.

I also didn't think it was without its flaws. I didn't like the unneccesary addition of old spock for what seemed like mere sentimental value. I didn't think revenge against him was as much a driving force as revenge against the federation for promising to save Romulus and failing as it could've been anyone piloting that ship.

I didn't like the look of the Narada. For me, it was far too Japanese anime looking.

I even agree with Ush about the quantity of the red matter the Vulcan ship carried.

I also presume that if a tiny drop of it created a blackhole big enough to destroy Vulcan then the huge ball of it would've created a blackhole far more massive and would've taken a lot less time to destroyed the Narada. Scientifically, there would've been a lot more effect on the enterprise and its crew from that short distance but obviously for plot purposes you couldn't have them all being killed by a blackhole so I just accepted that.

yeah, that was a bit excessive...tonnes of red matter when such a small amount creates such a large black-hole, but i was thinking, maybe because "Alt" Spock flew the jellyfish into the narada as opposed to shooting red matter at it (therefore, the red matter was still contained) it reacted differently, or the container didn't get destroyed properly, so the black-hole was just being fueled by the red matter...iunno

i personally liked the tributes to TOS: Sulu's sword; the virus McCoy gives Kirk in order to get him on the ship; the reference to the taboo kiss from TOS, between Kirk and Uhora and changing to how it was supposed to be - before Shatner got his grubby hands on it 😛 - Spock and Uhora...etc

Originally posted by jaden101
I also didn't think it was without its flaws. I didn't like the unneccesary addition of old spock for what seemed like mere sentimental value. I didn't think revenge against him was as much a driving force as revenge against the federation for promising to save Romulus and failing as it could've been anyone piloting that ship.

I didn't like the look of the Narada. For me, it was far too Japanese anime looking.

I even agree with Ush about the quantity of the red matter the Vulcan ship carried.

I also presume that if a tiny drop of it created a blackhole big enough to destroy Vulcan then the huge ball of it would've created a blackhole far more massive and would've taken a lot less time to destroyed the Narada. Scientifically, there would've been a lot more effect on the enterprise and its crew from that short distance but obviously for plot purposes you couldn't have them all being killed by a blackhole so I just accepted that.

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
yeah, that was a bit excessive...tonnes of red matter when such a small amount creates such a large black-hole, but i was thinking, maybe because "Alt" Spock flew the jellyfish into the narada as opposed to shooting red matter at it (therefore, the red matter was still contained) it reacted differently, or the container didn't get destroyed properly, so the black-hole was just being fueled by the red matter...iunno

i personally liked the tributes to TOS: Sulu's sword; the virus McCoy gives Kirk in order to get him on the ship; the reference to the taboo kiss from TOS, between Kirk and Uhora and changing to how it was supposed to be - before Shatner got his grubby hands on it 😛 - Spock and Uhora...etc

I'm off to bed. 6:22 am and was celebrating the Pens wins of the cup.

This article was featured on Yahoo today. Kind of describes a weaker black hole. Maybe the red matter was made to do this?

Paradoxical time travel isn't a thing of the past for the Star Trek legacy.

The plot of the new film concerns two starships that are sucked into an artificial black hole, sending them 154 years into the past.

While the time-travel method employed in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home depended on a far too weak gravitational slingshot, many physicists believe that a black hole might indeed provide the necessary portal to the past.

Anything that crosses a black hole's event horizon heads toward an incredibly tiny point of infinitely compressed matter called a singularity. That's also one of the huge problems with the new Star Trek film's plot: What's to keep the two starships from winding up as one with the singularity?

Physicists point to Kerr black holes as a less destructive alternative. These theoretical cosmic phenomena first described by Roy Kerr in the 1960s lack the matter-smashing singularity at the center, potentially making it possible to pass the event horizon and come out the other side -- in another time.

The singularity is no longer thought of, neccessarily as compressed matter, but just warped spacetime long after all matter there has been destroyed.

Yes. The Kerr metric comes up in LOST too.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I didn't claim it was objectively right in that post- though frankly I am extremely disappointed that people accept that sort of thing. What I did do was reject your implication that the issues were due to it setting up a franchise. The issues had absolutely nothing to do with that at all. The only criticism I would make in that area is that they bought in too many characters- Chekov would have been a good one to leave out, as he only came in later in TOS anyway.

For a start, I do not like the idea of setting up a new continuity and erasing the old one (and if you are a Trek fan, don't even think about trying to say it is simply alternate, not replacing. That is completely contrary to ALL TREK MATERIAL on this kind of thing so far). I don't think it was even slightly necessary to bring around the rejuvenation of the franchise, and if he hadn't done it I don't think anyone's opinions on its rejuvenation would be different.

But given that they DID do it, they could at least have done it in eways that made sense and without such crashing narrative shoehorning.

A supernova that threatens the Galaxy is pushing nonsense even for Trek; that it specifically destroy Romulus and not most the Galaxy as it would have to do so is also nonsense, that Spock brings some several thousand times the stuff he needs to stop it is nonsense.

Then, as Spock arrives there and tries to stop the nova, he just so happens to run into Nero who promptly blames Spock... for some reason... then then fight and get moved across time by the resulting black hole- that's pushing it but within Trek limits- to completely different times, and also completely different areas in space. Immediately after arriving, with only some minutes having gone since Romulus was destroyed, Nero has apparently already gone completey nuts and destroys the first ship he runs into. he then decides he will get revenge... for no reason I can work out... by waiting for Spock and then destroying every major world in the Federation, even though this won't actually save Romulus at all, nor can any reaqsonable line be drawn to him blaming the Federation or Spock, who was there TRYING TO STOP IT at the time. We are given no logical or plausible set-up as to why Nero is performing such random acts. His lione that he wanted a strong (i.e. Federation free) Romulus fits the motive for desttroyign the Federation but doesn;t actually do anyhting to SAVE Romulus and besides, past empowerment is inconsistent with the given motivation of revenge. Meanwhile, "he is mad" doesn't cut it. Mad with no purpose is just... shite. Evenm mad bad guys have to have some sort of running logic or plausiblity to their madness. Even The Joker gets to give his reasons, and he is as close as you can get to a motiveless madman.

Of course, having got the black hole stuff from Spock, he could then go and pre-emptively destroy the star and stop Romulus from being destroyed... but doesn't. Instead he dumps Spock on a planet... in a DIFFERENT STAR SYSTEM... so Spock can watch Vulcan being destroyed, sonehow, because that will help Nero... somehow. He tells Pike later on when accused of genocide that he is, in fact, preventing one. How can I put this? NO HE IS NOT.

Kirk ends up on tha planet (on a mission where Star Fleet knows all about Romulans, which is a continuity mess-up) having been ejected from the ship by Spock. EJECTED FROM THE DAMN SHIP. That is... insane. Quite aside from... just putting him in the darn brig, Spock exiles him to a hostile planet, alone, miles from friendly territory, which is akin to murder. And everyone seems ok with this. Of course, he finds future Spock who is on the planet so he can watch Vulcan being destroyed from... errr... light years away, and the... for Christ's sake, Scott is on the same random planet? That's the best they could do?

This is appalling, lazy, fan fictionish plotting from start to end. It makes all the questions about tbne Nerada and how muich of its plot had to be put in comic book form or even just deleted film sequences, relative to its ability to destroy entire Klingon fleets etc. into the shade. They had certain ends in mind, and didn't think once about the horseshit methods they were using to get to those ends. It is very, VERY bad.

Christ, even Nemesis' villain actually had a fleshed out motivation that we could see put properly on screen, and that flm was freaking awful. In just five minutes of thinking I can come up with a score or more of motivations for Nero that would have made more darn sense than the nonsense given on film. Motivations that would give him direct reasons to think that destroying the Federation in the past would actually accomplish what he wants. Agaun, personally I would not have actually had him succeed at all as I am not at all in favour of the continuity reset, but I would have had his reasoning be actually comprehensible and not just... random.

None of this is pickiness. Contravening major canon is not a matter of pickiness. Leaving your major villain without a motivation that actually makes sense s not a matter of pickiness. Leaving gaping plot holes and logical non sequiturs throughout the film is not a matter of pickiness. It is ALL a matter of quality, and on those accounts it fails.

So, as I say- godawful plot. And to be frank- I AM right on this. This simply WAS lazy writing. I know many will disagree, but they are simply wrong.

This is a very very good post. It captures almost everything I didn't like about the plot.