Yes that has been a point of contention with a lot of folk.
Its why I hope that they don't 'alternate reality vs original reality' it in the final season of LOST.
It does however make it more dangerous for the crew knowing that anyone can die though.
(But that I guess can only matter SO much to someone with no investment in the new crew or timeline...)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Late to the party seeing this one; finally have.Film was made great, produced great, the actors were great, the feel was spot on etc.
But the plot was absolutely godawful. It's left me with zero interest in the revised franchise. I simply don't care what happens in the new continuity.
Hopefully they get better writers for the next movie. Think of this as a proof of concept. It's been pointed out that the first movie in the original set wasn't very good either.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
But the plot was absolutely godawful. It's left me with zero interest in the revised franchise. I simply don't care what happens in the new continuity.
Whew. Glad I'm not the only one. Elminate the absurd gimping done to the Federation, remove all of the stupid plot holes, and the movie would be better, imo.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Hopefully they get better writers for the next movie. Think of this as a proof of concept. It's been pointed out that the first movie in the original set wasn't very good either.
... that doesn't make repeating the practice excusable!
I dare say I'll soften and watch the next one after all though.
But yes, there really was so much in there that just seemed custom-designed to aggravate me.
I disagree with extreme strength. The plot was absolutely godawful, full of holes, contrivances, poor use of the franchise (except for the characters themselves) and lazy transitions to the next thing the writers wanted to put in. It is way beyond it being an intro movie, and in any case it has introduced something I don't like.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I disagree with extreme strength. The plot was [b]absolutely godawful, full of holes, contrivances, poor use of the franchise (except for the characters themselves) and lazy transitions to the next thing the writers wanted to put in. It is way beyond it being an intro movie, and in any case it has introduced something I don't like. [/B]
there are bound to be views like that everywhere. and there are the alternate views where people are going to see where it leads them...
what Abrams has done is very interesting: he's brought back an already dying franchise, and to some just ended it completely, and to others given it a new berth of life.
It's almost certain that people who are dire fans of the "original continuity" are not gonna like it as much as the people that watch star trek because it's awesome. And the new generation that it's try to appeal to will have the same options to choose from, love or hate.
It's like a buffet...take what you want and leave what you don't.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I disagree with extreme strength. The plot was [b]absolutely godawful, full of holes, contrivances, poor use of the franchise (except for the characters themselves) and lazy transitions to the next thing the writers wanted to put in. It is way beyond it being an intro movie, and in any case it has introduced something I don't like. [/B]
You may disagree...Doesn't make you right.
Given its alternative timeline then by definition, we can't know what the transitions are to the next film.
Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Her ongoing mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life-forms and new civilizations; to boldly go where no one has gone before.
It's space...They can write anything. Will they stick to the same galactic set up?...Most likely they will. Doesn't mean we know what they are going to write though.
What is it you didn't like that was introduced?
I agree with CadoAngelus and jaden - having been a die-hart TOS fan for most of my conscious TV-watching life (so.. about .. 29 years now .. DAMN *chuckles* anyway ..), I was sad to see the Star Trek franchise going down, down, down, and I'm thrilled by what Abrams has created in this new continuity. I think it was well executed, exciting and it drew people to the story that hadn't considered themselves a Trekkie ever before. To me, it was awesome, I didn't see the Federation as gimped and yeah, there were a few bumps and holes but the movie in general had me so fascinated that those faded away for me very quickly.
Originally posted by jaden101
You may disagree...Doesn't make you right.Given its alternative timeline then by definition, we can't know what the transitions are to the next film.
Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Her ongoing mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life-forms and new civilizations; to boldly go where no one has gone before.
It's space...They can write anything. Will they stick to the same galactic set up?...Most likely they will. Doesn't mean we know what they are going to write though.
What is it you didn't like that was introduced?
I didn't claim it was objectively right in that post- though frankly I am extremely disappointed that people accept that sort of thing. What I did do was reject your implication that the issues were due to it setting up a franchise. The issues had absolutely nothing to do with that at all. The only criticism I would make in that area is that they bought in too many characters- Chekov would have been a good one to leave out, as he only came in later in TOS anyway.
For a start, I do not like the idea of setting up a new continuity and erasing the old one (and if you are a Trek fan, don't even think about trying to say it is simply alternate, not replacing. That is completely contrary to ALL TREK MATERIAL on this kind of thing so far). I don't think it was even slightly necessary to bring around the rejuvenation of the franchise, and if he hadn't done it I don't think anyone's opinions on its rejuvenation would be different.
But given that they DID do it, they could at least have done it in eways that made sense and without such crashing narrative shoehorning.
A supernova that threatens the Galaxy is pushing nonsense even for Trek; that it specifically destroy Romulus and not most the Galaxy as it would have to do so is also nonsense, that Spock brings some several thousand times the stuff he needs to stop it is nonsense.
Then, as Spock arrives there and tries to stop the nova, he just so happens to run into Nero who promptly blames Spock... for some reason... then then fight and get moved across time by the resulting black hole- that's pushing it but within Trek limits- to completely different times, and also completely different areas in space. Immediately after arriving, with only some minutes having gone since Romulus was destroyed, Nero has apparently already gone completey nuts and destroys the first ship he runs into. he then decides he will get revenge... for no reason I can work out... by waiting for Spock and then destroying every major world in the Federation, even though this won't actually save Romulus at all, nor can any reaqsonable line be drawn to him blaming the Federation or Spock, who was there TRYING TO STOP IT at the time. We are given no logical or plausible set-up as to why Nero is performing such random acts. His lione that he wanted a strong (i.e. Federation free) Romulus fits the motive for desttroyign the Federation but doesn;t actually do anyhting to SAVE Romulus and besides, past empowerment is inconsistent with the given motivation of revenge. Meanwhile, "he is mad" doesn't cut it. Mad with no purpose is just... shite. Evenm mad bad guys have to have some sort of running logic or plausiblity to their madness. Even The Joker gets to give his reasons, and he is as close as you can get to a motiveless madman.
Of course, having got the black hole stuff from Spock, he could then go and pre-emptively destroy the star and stop Romulus from being destroyed... but doesn't. Instead he dumps Spock on a planet... in a DIFFERENT STAR SYSTEM... so Spock can watch Vulcan being destroyed, sonehow, because that will help Nero... somehow. He tells Pike later on when accused of genocide that he is, in fact, preventing one. How can I put this? NO HE IS NOT.
Kirk ends up on tha planet (on a mission where Star Fleet knows all about Romulans, which is a continuity mess-up) having been ejected from the ship by Spock. EJECTED FROM THE DAMN SHIP. That is... insane. Quite aside from... just putting him in the darn brig, Spock exiles him to a hostile planet, alone, miles from friendly territory, which is akin to murder. And everyone seems ok with this. Of course, he finds future Spock who is on the planet so he can watch Vulcan being destroyed from... errr... light years away, and the... for Christ's sake, Scott is on the same random planet? That's the best they could do?
This is appalling, lazy, fan fictionish plotting from start to end. It makes all the questions about tbne Nerada and how muich of its plot had to be put in comic book form or even just deleted film sequences, relative to its ability to destroy entire Klingon fleets etc. into the shade. They had certain ends in mind, and didn't think once about the horseshit methods they were using to get to those ends. It is very, VERY bad.
Christ, even Nemesis' villain actually had a fleshed out motivation that we could see put properly on screen, and that flm was freaking awful. In just five minutes of thinking I can come up with a score or more of motivations for Nero that would have made more darn sense than the nonsense given on film. Motivations that would give him direct reasons to think that destroying the Federation in the past would actually accomplish what he wants. Agaun, personally I would not have actually had him succeed at all as I am not at all in favour of the continuity reset, but I would have had his reasoning be actually comprehensible and not just... random.
None of this is pickiness. Contravening major canon is not a matter of pickiness. Leaving your major villain without a motivation that actually makes sense s not a matter of pickiness. Leaving gaping plot holes and logical non sequiturs throughout the film is not a matter of pickiness. It is ALL a matter of quality, and on those accounts it fails.
So, as I say- godawful plot. And to be frank- I AM right on this. This simply WAS lazy writing. I know many will disagree, but they are simply wrong.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I didn't claim it was objectively right in that post- though frankly I am extremely disappointed that people accept that sort of thing. What I did do was reject your implication that the issues were due to it setting up a franchise. The issues had absolutely nothing to do with that at all. The only criticism I would make in that area is that they bought in too many characters- Chekov would have been a good one to leave out, as he only came in later in TOS anyway.For a start, I do not like the idea of setting up a new continuity and erasing the old one (and if you are a Trek fan, don't even think about trying to say it is simply alternate, not replacing. That is completely contrary to ALL TREK MATERIAL on this kind of thing so far). I don't think it was even slightly necessary to bring around the rejuvenation of the franchise, and if he hadn't done it I don't think anyone's opinions on its rejuvenation would be different.
But given that they DID do it, they could at least have done it in eways that made sense and without such crashing narrative shoehorning.
A supernova that threatens the Galaxy is pushing nonsense even for Trek; that it specifically destroy Romulus and not most the Galaxy as it would have to do so is also nonsense, that Spock brings some several thousand times the stuff he needs to stop it is nonsense.
Then, as Spock arrives there and tries to stop the nova, he just so happens to run into Nero who promptly blames Spock... for some reason... then then fight and get moved across time by the resulting black hole- that's pushing it but within Trek limits- to completely different times, and also completely different areas in space. Immediately after arriving, with only some minutes having gone since Romulus was destroyed, Nero has apparently already gone completey nuts and destroys the first ship he runs into. he then decides he will get revenge... for no reason I can work out... by waiting for Spock and then destroying every major world in the Federation, even though this won't actually save Romulus at all, nor can any reaqsonable line be drawn to him blaming the Federation or Spock, who was there TRYING TO STOP IT at the time. We are given no logical or plausible set-up as to why Nero is performing such random acts. His lione that he wanted a strong (i.e. Federation free) Romulus fits the motive for desttroyign the Federation but doesn;t actually do anyhting to SAVE Romulus and besides, past empowerment is inconsistent with the given motivation of revenge. Meanwhile, "he is mad" doesn't cut it. Mad with no purpose is just... shite. Evenm mad bad guys have to have some sort of running logic or plausiblity to their madness. Even The Joker gets to give his reasons, and he is as close as you can get to a motiveless madman.
Of course, having got the black hole stuff from Spock, he could then go and pre-emptively destroy the star and stop Romulus from being destroyed... but doesn't. Instead he dumps Spock on a planet... in a DIFFERENT STAR SYSTEM... so Spock can watch Vulcan being destroyed, sonehow, because that will help Nero... somehow. He tells Pike later on when accused of genocide that he is, in fact, preventing one. How can I put this? NO HE IS NOT.
Kirk ends up on tha planet (on a mission where Star Fleet knows all about Romulans, which is a continuity mess-up) having been ejected from the ship by Spock. EJECTED FROM THE DAMN SHIP. That is... insane. Quite aside from... just putting him in the darn brig, Spock exiles him to a hostile planet, alone, miles from friendly territory, which is akin to murder. And everyone seems ok with this. Of course, he finds future Spock who is on the planet so he can watch Vulcan being destroyed from... errr... light years away, and the... for Christ's sake, Scott is on the same random planet? That's the best they could do?
This is appalling, lazy, fan fictionish plotting from start to end. It makes all the questions about tbne Nerada and how muich of its plot had to be put in comic book form or even just deleted film sequences, relative to its ability to destroy entire Klingon fleets etc. into the shade. They had certain ends in mind, and didn't think once about the horseshit methods they were using to get to those ends. It is very, VERY bad.
Christ, even Nemesis' villain actually had a fleshed out motivation that we could see put properly on screen, and that flm was freaking awful. In just five minutes of thinking I can come up with a score or more of motivations for Nero that would have made more darn sense than the nonsense given on film. Motivations that would give him direct reasons to think that destroying the Federation in the past would actually accomplish what he wants. Agaun, personally I would not have actually had him succeed at all as I am not at all in favour of the continuity reset, but I would have had his reasoning be actually comprehensible and not just... random.
None of this is pickiness. Contravening major canon is not a matter of pickiness. Leaving your major villain without a motivation that actually makes sense s not a matter of pickiness. Leaving gaping plot holes and logical non sequiturs throughout the film is not a matter of pickiness. It is ALL a matter of quality, and on those accounts it fails.
So, as I say- godawful plot. And to be frank- I AM right on this. This simply WAS lazy writing. I know many will disagree, but they are simply wrong.
Wow! now I hate the movie. 😆
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I didn't claim it was objectively right in that post- though frankly I am extremely disappointed that people accept that sort of thing. What I did do was reject your implication that the issues were due to it setting up a franchise. The issues had absolutely nothing to do with that at all. The only criticism I would make in that area is that they bought in too many characters- Chekov would have been a good one to leave out, as he only came in later in TOS anyway.For a start, I do not like the idea of setting up a new continuity and erasing the old one (and if you are a Trek fan, don't even think about trying to say it is simply alternate, not replacing. That is completely contrary to ALL TREK MATERIAL on this kind of thing so far). I don't think it was even slightly necessary to bring around the rejuvenation of the franchise, and if he hadn't done it I don't think anyone's opinions on its rejuvenation would be different.
But given that they DID do it, they could at least have done it in eways that made sense and without such crashing narrative shoehorning.
A supernova that threatens the Galaxy is pushing nonsense even for Trek; that it specifically destroy Romulus and not most the Galaxy as it would have to do so is also nonsense, that Spock brings some several thousand times the stuff he needs to stop it is nonsense.
Then, as Spock arrives there and tries to stop the nova, he just so happens to run into Nero who promptly blames Spock... for some reason... then then fight and get moved across time by the resulting black hole- that's pushing it but within Trek limits- to completely different times, and also completely different areas in space. Immediately after arriving, with only some minutes having gone since Romulus was destroyed, Nero has apparently already gone completey nuts and destroys the first ship he runs into. he then decides he will get revenge... for no reason I can work out... by waiting for Spock and then destroying every major world in the Federation, even though this won't actually save Romulus at all, nor can any reaqsonable line be drawn to him blaming the Federation or Spock, who was there TRYING TO STOP IT at the time. We are given no logical or plausible set-up as to why Nero is performing such random acts. His lione that he wanted a strong (i.e. Federation free) Romulus fits the motive for desttroyign the Federation but doesn;t actually do anyhting to SAVE Romulus and besides, past empowerment is inconsistent with the given motivation of revenge. Meanwhile, "he is mad" doesn't cut it. Mad with no purpose is just... shite. Evenm mad bad guys have to have some sort of running logic or plausiblity to their madness. Even The Joker gets to give his reasons, and he is as close as you can get to a motiveless madman.
Of course, having got the black hole stuff from Spock, he could then go and pre-emptively destroy the star and stop Romulus from being destroyed... but doesn't. Instead he dumps Spock on a planet... in a DIFFERENT STAR SYSTEM... so Spock can watch Vulcan being destroyed, sonehow, because that will help Nero... somehow. He tells Pike later on when accused of genocide that he is, in fact, preventing one. How can I put this? NO HE IS NOT.
Kirk ends up on tha planet (on a mission where Star Fleet knows all about Romulans, which is a continuity mess-up) having been ejected from the ship by Spock. EJECTED FROM THE DAMN SHIP. That is... insane. Quite aside from... just putting him in the darn brig, Spock exiles him to a hostile planet, alone, miles from friendly territory, which is akin to murder. And everyone seems ok with this. Of course, he finds future Spock who is on the planet so he can watch Vulcan being destroyed from... errr... light years away, and the... for Christ's sake, Scott is on the same random planet? That's the best they could do?
This is appalling, lazy, fan fictionish plotting from start to end. It makes all the questions about tbne Nerada and how muich of its plot had to be put in comic book form or even just deleted film sequences, relative to its ability to destroy entire Klingon fleets etc. into the shade. They had certain ends in mind, and didn't think once about the horseshit methods they were using to get to those ends. It is very, VERY bad.
Christ, even Nemesis' villain actually had a fleshed out motivation that we could see put properly on screen, and that flm was freaking awful. In just five minutes of thinking I can come up with a score or more of motivations for Nero that would have made more darn sense than the nonsense given on film. Motivations that would give him direct reasons to think that destroying the Federation in the past would actually accomplish what he wants. Agaun, personally I would not have actually had him succeed at all as I am not at all in favour of the continuity reset, but I would have had his reasoning be actually comprehensible and not just... random.
None of this is pickiness. Contravening major canon is not a matter of pickiness. Leaving your major villain without a motivation that actually makes sense s not a matter of pickiness. Leaving gaping plot holes and logical non sequiturs throughout the film is not a matter of pickiness. It is ALL a matter of quality, and on those accounts it fails.
So, as I say- godawful plot. And to be frank- I AM right on this. This simply WAS lazy writing. I know many will disagree, but they are simply wrong.
👆
Oh, forgot one- I cannot stand waste-of-time sequences. The entire bit with Kirk, Sulu and Mr. Useless free-falling onto the plaform and the frankly silly swordfight (draw your GUN, Sulu, not your SWORD!) was a total waste of time. They sabotaged the drill rig and... that made no difference at all, and so you can track that back to Pike's whole thing about not going for diplomacy and asking for close combat volunteers was also a waste of time because if he had just gone over alone... no difference to the film at all.
Films, especially action fillms, are always pushed for time and every sequence you shoot should have some way of advancing the plot in it. Otherwise, cut it out. Don't give your heroes a major action sequence (done almost entirely to justify Sulu's presence in the film) that actually has a zero efefct on anything.
A supernova that threatens the Galaxy is pushing nonsense even for Trek; that it specifically destroy Romulus and not most the Galaxy as it would have to do so is also nonsense, that Spock brings some several thousand times the stuff he needs to stop it is nonsense.
In science fact, there have been recorded supernova that have outshone their entire galaxy by several hundred times and would have decimated most of their host galaxies so the concept isn't nonsense from a science POV.
Granted, I also didn't see the need for the large ball of "red matter" if all that was needed was a small drop.
I also agree that while Nero was mad, most of his crew weren't. His belief that Romulus was and is destroyed in both timelines didn't fit given that he could've simply went to Romulus in the past timeline to see if it really was there. Obviously the reasoning of this was tried and his madness was the basis of his refusal to believe it.
I also thought the addition of Leonard Nimoy was shoehorned in and unneccesary.
Christ, even Nemesis' villain actually had a fleshed out motivation that we could see put properly on screen, and that flm was freaking awful. In just five minutes of thinking I can come up with a score or more of motivations for Nero that would have made more darn sense than the nonsense given on film. Motivations that would give him direct reasons to think that destroying the Federation in the past would actually accomplish what he wants. Agaun, personally I would not have actually had him succeed at all as I am not at all in favour of the continuity reset, but I would have had his reasoning be actually comprehensible and not just... random.
His motivations are irrelevant. His character is irrelevant and his actions are irrelevant in most part. His sole purpose was to give the reintroduction of the characters some kind of basis with which to build on. Introducing some kind of ongoing "bad-guy" at this stage would've been too much to fit in. It wasn't even the dominant plot of the movie...That was clearly the forming of the crew. The Narada and Nero was just something to give some level of excitement to an otherwise boring concept.
Clearly in order to set up an alternative timeline for the franchise they had to incorporate a temporal storyline in order to make a different past/future so that they could deviate from the established original series/films and not rely on their chronology with regards to contact with other species...I originally questioned the "mining ship" idea but then when I thought about it I realised a war ship of any kind would have simply been able to destroy everything in its path.
For a start, I do not like the idea of setting upo a new continuity and erasing the old one (and if you are a Trek fan, don't even think about trying to say it is simply alternate, not replacing. That is completely contrary to ALL TREK MATERIAL on this kind of thing so far).
Moaning about the continuity aspect is, quite frankly, a stupid argument. To keep the original continuity they would simply be remaking the old movies which were and are no longer popular from a mainstream audience perspective. Sticking to that line would mean the entire franchise would die on its arse completely. It HAD to be changed in order for it to have any chance of re-establishing the franchise.
I AM right on this. This simply WAS lazy writing. I know many will disagree, but they are simply wrong.
No...you're not right and it's extremely arrogant of you to think you are.