Jedi Exile vs Ulic Qel Droma

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You should note that Mandalore - The Ultimate did managed to train and create the most powerful Mandalorian military in the history of Star Wars which was capable enough to defeat the forces of the Galactic Republic of his age.

See Nai's post.

Irrelevant.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Mandalore the Ultimate being more powerful in his own right than Mandalore the Indomitable.

However Mandalore - The indomitable never managed to create a Mandalorian military so powerful. So once again, Mandalore - The Ultimate proved to be more talented then his ancestor.

No, he hasn't.

You were attempting to prove that somehow, despite the fact they are virtual unknowns, the Mandalore Revan had faced is greater the his predecessor in terms of power (because that was Nai's initial claim).

Leadership is not necessarily a singular combat ability, and it certainly proves absolutely nothing for your case. I'll also take note that you completely disregarded what I wrote.

Again, there is a possibility that Mandalore - The Ultimate could also get exposed to such a scenario in the jungles of Dxun but he did not failed.

Here's what I said:

Originally posted by Advent
If you can prove to me that had Mandalore the Ultimate been in the same position he would've survived, then perhaps you'd have a point. But, you can't, so you don't.

Try again. You cannot prove had the Mandalore of Revan's times been in the same scenario that he would've faired any better. Therefore, you have no point.

He considered that place to be an ideal training ground for him and his forces for a good reason after-all.

Do you know what 'relevance' is, may I ask?

He choose to locate his camps there, does this mean he could take on two of the predators (or possibly more), even after crash landing? No, it doesn't, and nothing of the sort indicates such.

He established a strong-hold on Dxun and started training his forces over there because he considered that place to be an ideal training ground for his forces due to tough challenges they could experience in that place. He wanted to ensure that his warriors could survive even in the toughest challenges.

See Nai's post.

Like I've told you before, you sound like a broken record. Oh, and this still does not support the theory that he would've survived such an attack.

Of course, I'm also disregarding the fact we don't know exactly what happened anyways, so the point you tried (and failed) to make holds no water.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And you forgot that Exile witnessed an event or an atrocity that can be considered to be the most barbaric in the history of Star Wars.

No, it can't. It isn't even so much as a contender.

"In the later years of the Rebellion era, when sentients speaks of the worst tragedies that have ever occurred in galactic history. Alderaan is always foremost on everyone's lips. The destruction of Alderaan was an atrocity that will be long remembered and morned by anyone who loves justice, beauty, or peace." (Coruscant and the Core Worlds, pg. 40-41).

The destruction of Alderaan by the Death Star has simply set the bar as the most devastating destruction in the entire Star Wars mythos.

Now, you claim that there were "millions and millions" (quote, and source is where exactly?), compare this to Alderaan, which was home to two billion, that number of causalities vastly trumps the amount on Malachor, which wasn't even completely destroyed, mind you.

Aside from the fact that Alderaan was a "peaceful, idyllic utopia", whereas there was a raging, ongoing battle during the time the Mass Shadow Generator was activated. What happened on Malachor V the 'most barbaric? You're a total moron if you truly believe that.

Nai, I'm not reading through that and certainly not responding right now, for now we'll have to agree to disagree because I simply don't have the time to type what will inevitably be a 7 post response, IDK, probably in a week or so but for now I have far more important things to do then arguing over the power of star wars characters.

Originally posted by Borbarad

You're ignorance is pretty annoying kid. He „fell of a cliff“ ? He was hammered down from that cliff by Ulic. And of course they were equal. Hence Mandalore was beaten by Ulic who sacrificed all advantages he had (force, lightsaber) and still won. Somehow your argument does actually contradict the BLATANT OBVIOUS EVENTS in the comic. Guess that means you're wrong.

He didn't sacrifice the use of the force, only his lightsaber.

Here's the excerpt.http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=014

and then this.....

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=015

Styles has being saying he knocked Mandalore off a cliff.The point here being that it doesn't at all look like a feat to inspire awe, especially from a top tier force sensitive.

And judging by the fact that Ulic never ever surrender his use of the force (where did you get that idea?)

It pretty much says here that he has to use his Jedi skills.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=011

So Ulic used the force against a skilled albeit non-force sensitive combatant. Why are we arguing over this again? And he used the force unconsciously through his pre cognitive abilities (we agree on this), and actively by performing the leaps to avoid Mandalore's Basilisk and then to knock him off the cliff.

Just because he didn't use an offensive force power doesn't mean he wasn't using the force actively.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Oh great defender of wisdom.
Let me just quote the nice novel „Shatterpoint“ to deal with this nonsense.
“Many survivors of Geonosis suffer from nightmares. I have heard tale after tale from the Jedi healers who have counseled them. Nightmares are inevitable; there has not been such a slaughter of Jedi since the Sith War, four thousand years ago.“

Clearly ignoring the facts. The Mando wars and the JCW both killed more jedi than the entirety of the GSW. It should also be noted that the Mando wars killed Jedi in 3 years, whereas the GSW took place over a period of months (roughly 6 months) in the year 3996 BTY.

So The Exile so more war than Ulic, and the GSW was never stated to break Jedi as the Mando wars did. That's just your assumption based off of one comment that didn't suggest any "breaking" of Jedi.

The gsw was short and brutal in parts, mostly Deneba, Kemplex and one or two other worlds, but most of the noted battles were either minor skirmishes or didn't involve Kun and Ulic's participation.

You're forgetting that most of the GSW battles were fought by the Mando's and the Krath against the body of the Republic.

Clearly ignoring the facts. The Mando wars and the JCW both killed more jedi than the entirety of the GSW. It should also be noted that the Mando wars killed Jedi in 3 years, whereas the GSW took place over a period of months (roughly 6 months) in the year 3996 BTY.

So The Exile so more war than Ulic, and the GSW was never stated to break Jedi as the Mando wars did. That's just your assumption based off of one comment that didn't suggest any "breaking" of Jedi.

The gsw was short and brutal in parts, mostly Deneba, Kemplex and one or two other worlds, but most of the noted battles were either minor skirmishes or didn't involve Kun and Ulic's participation.

You're forgetting that most of the GSW battles were fought by the Mando's and the Krath. [/B]

What does the exile possibly seeing more war than Ulic have to do with anything? How does that even equate to skill? And if we're going to get specific, it is unknown when the exile became Revan's general, yet Ulic was running the GSW with Exar Kun so he was always seeing action.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

What does the exile possibly seeing more war than Ulic have to do with anything? How does that even equate to skill? And if we're going to get specific, it is unknown when the exile became Revan's general, yet Ulic was running the GSW with Exar Kun so he was always seeing action.

It doesn't matter, not many of Nai's arguments do. I was pointing out that Ulic wasn't present in a lot of battles in the GSW as a Sith. The Mando's and the Krath led a lot of battles.

The Republic seemed dumb in the GSW, shifting their core world defense forces based on some leaked info on the location of Mando and Krath forces? That just seems too far fetched even for SW. The defense of the centre of your civilization abandoned (mostly) to chase after intangible info? Woah!

Advent and Nai - I will respond late as I am currently busy...

Originally posted by Advent
See Nai's post.

Irrelevant.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Mandalore the Ultimate being more powerful in his own right than Mandalore the Indomitable.

A) Talent
B) Combat Skills

And that particular point is intended to show the talent of Mandalore - The Ultimate and not his Combat skills.

Even my this comment: "Canderous said that Mandalore - The Ultimate was the only known Mandalorian to be quickest ever to master the use of Basilisk War droids. This single case shows that Mandalore - The Ultimate was more talented then his ancestor." is also intended to show the talent of Mandalore - The Ultimate and not his combat skills.

In short words, I am comparing these two Mandalores in terms of both talent and combat skills.

Originally posted by Advent
No, he hasn't.

You were attempting to prove that somehow, despite the fact they are virtual unknowns, the Mandalore Revan had faced is greater the his predecessor in terms of power (because that was Nai's initial claim).

Leadership is not necessarily a singular combat ability, and it certainly proves absolutely nothing for your case. I'll also take note that you completely disregarded what I wrote.

Nai actually thinks that [i]Mandalore - The indomitable is more powerful then Mandalore - The Ultimate and I am asking him that why does he thinks that Mandalore - The indomitable is more powerful then Mandalore - The Ultimate and the burden of proof is still upon him.

And as far as the combat skills of Mandalore - The Ultimate is concerned, Canderous made it clear that he was the best among them.

Originally posted by Advent
Try again. You cannot prove had the Mandalore of Revan's times been in the same scenario that he would've faired any better. Therefore, you have no point.

Originally posted by Advent
Do you know what 'relevance' is, may I ask?

He choose to locate his camps there, does this mean he could take on two of the predators (or possibly more), even after crash landing? No, it doesn't, and nothing of the sort indicates such.

Originally posted by Advent
See Nai's post.

Like I've told you before, you sound like a broken record. Oh, and this still does not support the theory that he would've survived such an attack.

It was Mandalore - The Ultimate who initiated a training program in those jungles to prepare his forces for war.

Originally posted by Advent
Of course, I'm also disregarding the fact we don't know exactly what happened anyways, so the point you tried (and failed) to make holds no water.

This was not the case during the events of KOTOR II however.

Originally posted by Advent
No, it can't. It isn't even so much as a contender.

"In the later years of the Rebellion era, when sentients speaks of the worst tragedies that have ever occurred in galactic history. Alderaan is always foremost on everyone's lips. The destruction of Alderaan was an atrocity that will be long remembered and morned by anyone who loves justice, beauty, or peace." (Coruscant and the Core Worlds, pg. 40-41).

The destruction of Alderaan by the Death Star has simply set the bar as the most devastating destruction in the entire Star Wars mythos.

Now, you claim that there were "millions and millions" (quote, and source is where exactly?), compare this to Alderaan, which was home to two billion, that number of causalities vastly trumps the amount on Malachor, which wasn't even completely destroyed, mind you.

Aside from the fact that Alderaan was a "peaceful, idyllic utopia", whereas there was a raging, ongoing battle during the time the Mass Shadow Generator was activated. What happened on Malachor V the 'most barbaric? You're a total moron if you truly believe that. [/B]

Guess what? Darth Malak is a good contender in this regard.

Anyways, I am talking about an atrocity that is about a war crime of immense level.

In case of battle of Malachor V, a general willingly decides to commit a war-crime of such a level that he decides to betray his entire military force and orders the activation of a Super-weapon that does not kills precisely but destroys everything in its path and he sacrifices his entire military force just to win in that single damn battle. This level of betrayal has not been committed in the entire history of Star Wars.

Those republic soldiers and Jedi were not sheeps to be slaughtered and went there to fight for the Republic and not to negotiate with the enemies. They never deserved such a horrible fate.

And Nai said it wrong that those killed in this battle numbered in thousands. The Jedi alone numbered in thousands in that battle and the Republic soldiers and Mandalorians were far larger in number.

Canderous described that event like this: "I still remember that final battle in the skies above Malachor V. The two fleets filling the space around it, outshining the stars..."

Originally posted by Allankles
He didn't sacrifice the use of the force, only his lightsaber.

Here's the excerpt.http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=014

and then this.....

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=015

You obviously didn't get what I'm saying. He obviously didn't use the force in an aggressive way that would fit his character as a Sith. During the raid on Coruscant he's at least force choking some people to death. He could have done the very same thing to Mandalore. That's aside from other TK attacks (like force push as the most basic or perhaps a saber throw) he could have used to actually kill somebody who can't use the force rather easily.

Styles has being saying he knocked Mandalore off a cliff.The point here being that it doesn't at all look like a feat to inspire awe, especially from a top tier force sensitive.

No. Styles said that Mandalore "fell of a cliff" to be precise. And now you come up again with noting that Ulic is "force sensitive". It's pretty obvious that he didn't use direct force attacks against Mandalore and it's pretty obvious that he took him out of the superior position twice. He first took Mandalore down from his war mount (with one single strike) and then grapped some weapon totally unfamiliar to him and pretty much owned Mandalore with another single strike (while Mandalore was on the high ground).

Just to give you something to compare: Do you think the Exile would be able to overcome Canderous Ordo (as Mandalore) with an usual melee weapon with only two strikes ? Even though I dislike normal game content being used as argument: But even if you use any possible cheat in KotoR 2 (max level, max stats) and two lightsabers the Exile still needs multiple hits to take down Mandalorians (in the arena) in most cases.

And judging by the fact that Ulic never ever surrender his use of the force (where did you get that idea?)

I said that he didn't use it in any agressive way. Unless Mandalore the Indomitable was a trained force user he wouldn't have any protection against force attacks. Thus meaning Ulic could have killed him easily with a force choke or other offensive force powers.

It pretty much says here that he has to use his Jedi skills.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=011

So Ulic used the force against a skilled albeit non-force sensitive combatant. Why are we arguing over this again? And he used the force unconsciously through his pre cognitive abilities (we agree on this), and actively by performing the leaps to avoid Mandalore's Basilisk and then to knock him off the cliff.

Just because he didn't use an offensive force power doesn't mean he wasn't using the force actively.

The point is that, by don't using offensive force powers and by dropping his lightsaber he sacrificed most of his advantages over Mandalore. I don't see where "passive" use of the force decided their actual melee confrontation. Ulic didn't need precognition given how he defeated Mandalore with two swings and just reacted to what Mandalore did. Possibly he didn't even use it because otherwise (precognition + force speed) Mandalore would neve have been able to knock him down after he had put the lightsaber away.

Yet I'd really like to see the Exile surviving the attack of that war mount (as we saw laser shots raining down on Ulic and he doesn't even move to defend himself), then survive Mandalore attacking in melee combat while being unarmed just to force Mandalore out of the high ground and defeat him with a single attack using a totally unfamiliar weapon.

Clearly ignoring the facts. The Mando wars and the JCW both killed more jedi than the entirety of the GSW. It should also be noted that the Mando wars killed Jedi in 3 years, whereas the GSW took place over a period of months (roughly 6 months) in the year 3996 BTY.

No. You are clearly ignoring the facts. First the JCW doesn't matter since the Exile didn't participate in it for most of the time. Second: The GSW includes all fights shown in the TOTJ comics (including the Beast Wars of Onderon). Third: The Mandalorian wars clearly not killed as many Jedi as the confrontations of the GSW. Reason ? Logical deduction.

a) Most of the Jedi didn't join Revan hence they weren't even involved in the conflict. And of those who did join Revan obviously most survived, given the sheer number of force user still serving under the command of Revan and Malak after Malachor V. Jedi are actually hard to kill, noted by the Mandalorians you fight in the Arena as KotoR 2 as well as supported by the fact that the Exile, for example, did lose all troops under her command on Dxun and still managed to survive.

b) Nihilus killed "thousands" of Jedi on Katarr and Sion's Sith assassins did also take out a large number of Jedi. Going by this and the fact that the Jedi Order never had more than 10,000 members (noted to be the number of Jedi during Kun's time and also during the PT) there can't have been that many Jedi even involved in the Mandalorian Wars. That possibly were "only" hundrets, or maybe one thousand. Surely not "thousands" - and even of them, most survived.

Now take the GSW battles as example.

1)
The attack of the Krath Droids on Deneba alone claimed dozens of Jedi lives, including Arca Jeth, one of their most powerful masters.

2)
The Battle of Basilisk again claimed dozens of Jedi lives, including the live of Jedi Master Sidrona Diath.

3)
Kun's sending of Dark Jedi to assassinate their former masters wiped another eight of the most powerful Jedi in that time from existance.

4)
Kun personally killed two of the most powerful Jedi in that time (Odan, Vodo) and forced another one (Ood Bnar) to chain himself to Ossus.

5)
The Dark Reaper claimed "a great number" of Jedi lives before it was finally disabled. While this isn't defined we can suggest that the Jedi won't attack a powerful Dark Side weapon like this with a small amount of people. I guess it won't be wrong to claim that this alone killed "hundrets" of Jedi.

6)
Obviously Kun and his massassi had to slaughter to some nice amount of Jedi guarding the Senate complex before entering it. (Second Battle of Coruscant).

7)
Kun's Sith disciples all died in the Jedi's attack on Yavin 4 (that were 20 people if I didn't count them wrong) if they hadn't already be killed before that.

8)
Now if you want to add the deaths of Jedi that did die "on panel" other than those I've mentioned, you may add: Kith Kark, Qrrl Toq, Shoaneb Culu, Dace Diath, Cay Qel-Droma.

And to the contrary of your claims the Dark Empire Sourcebook comments Ulic's actions alone during the GSW with the following words: "There are many, like the Krath, who were content to rule a small region of the galaxy. Others, like Ulic Qel-Droma, simply spread death on a genocidal level." (page 61).

Adding the words of Mace Windu which I already quoted, the losts of force users and lives in general during the GSW seem to have been quite massive. In both deparments more massive than everything you can say about the Mandalorian Wars.

So The Exile so more war than Ulic, and the GSW was never stated to break Jedi as the Mando wars did. That's just your assumption based off of one comment that didn't suggest any "breaking" of Jedi.

The Exile saw more war then Ulic ? See the quote above I've given from the Dark Empire sourcebook. The Exile's actions during the Mandalorian Wars are compareable to "spread death on a genocidal level" and this throughout the entire Galaxy (which Ulic did) how exactly ?

The gsw was short and brutal in parts, mostly Deneba, Kemplex and one or two other worlds, but most of the noted battles were either minor skirmishes or didn't involve Kun and Ulic's participation.

See quote about Ulic above. See comment on the GSW above. The Beast Wars on Onderon are listed among the GSW battles since "Sith War" refers to the participation of Dark Siders in the conflict (here Nadd, Amanoa, Ommin) and to say that this were "minor skirmishes" given how many people you actually see on panel participating in the first Battle of Onderon doesn't exactly fit.

You're forgetting that most of the GSW battles were fought by the Mando's and the Krath against the body of the Republic.

You're forgetting that in the GSW, unlike the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi were part of the Republic Military in General. In fact you even have the Suprme Chancelor (and Jedi Knight) Sidrona Diath being killed by the onslaught of the Mandalorians under Ulic. The majority of the GSW battles actually had Jedi involved in them.

a) Most of the Jedi didn't join Revan hence they weren't even involved in the conflict. And of those who did join Revan obviously most survived, given the sheer number of force user still serving under the command of Revan and Malak after Malachor V. Jedi are actually hard to kill, noted by the Mandalorians you fight in the Arena as KotoR 2 as well as supported by the fact that the Exile, for example, did lose all troops under her command on Dxun and still managed to survive.

b) Nihilus killed "thousands" of Jedi on Katarr and Sion's Sith assassins did also take out a large number of Jedi. Going by this and the fact that the Jedi Order never had more than 10,000 members (noted to be the number of Jedi during Kun's time and also during the PT) there can't have been that many Jedi even involved in the Mandalorian Wars. That possibly were "only" hundrets, or maybe one thousand. Surely not "thousands" - and even of them, most survived.

1)
The attack of the Krath Droids on Deneba alone claimed dozens of Jedi lives, including Arca Jeth, one of their most powerful masters.

3)
Kun's sending of Dark Jedi to assassinate their former masters wiped another eight of the most powerful Jedi in that time from existance.

4)
Kun personally killed two of the most powerful Jedi in that time (Odan, Vodo) and forced another one (Ood Bnar) to chain himself to Ossus.

5)
The Dark Reaper claimed "a great number" of Jedi lives before it was finally disabled. While this isn't defined we can suggest that the Jedi won't attack a powerful Dark Side weapon like this with a small amount of people. I guess it won't be wrong to claim that this alone killed "hundrets" of Jedi.

6)
Obviously Kun and his massassi had to slaughter to some nice amount of Jedi guarding the Senate complex before entering it. (Second Battle of Coruscant).

Adding the words of Mace Windu which I already quoted, the losts of force users and lives in general during the GSW seem to have been quite massive. In both deparments more massive than everything you can say about the Mandalorian Wars.

The Exile saw more war then Ulic ? See the quote above I've given from the Dark Empire sourcebook. The Exile's actions during the Mandalorian Wars are compareable to "spread death on a genocidal level" and this throughout the entire Galaxy (which Ulic did) how exactly ?

You're forgetting that in the GSW, unlike the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi were part of the Republic Military in General. In fact you even have the Suprme Chancelor (and Jedi Knight) Sidrona Diath being killed by the onslaught of the Mandalorians under Ulic. The majority of the GSW battles actually had Jedi involved in them. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I think your facts are distorted beyond belief. First of all, THOUSANDS of Jedi left the order and joined the ranks of Revan's sith empire. That's where most of the force users came from, aside from the fact that Revan built academies.

Oh. Care to give me a quote and source about that "thousands" because in the KotoR games I only see the term "many" coming up. And I was talking about the force users present under Malak's command which was a year after the Mandalorian War ended. Really...how many people from academies should have joined Revan's lines as completely trained Sith / Dark Jedi in that amount of time ?

Wrong again Nai. After the JCW, there were barely 100 jedi left, and the majority have left the order, so Nihilus could have killed 10 Jedi for all you know, and as much as 90, which is illogical anyways since most left the order. The Jedi order DID have tens of thousands of Jedi during the JCW, because Malak and Revan were the best in an "order of tens of thousands". The JCW was the most devastating war next to the Vong War.

You notice that I was still discussing the Mandalorian Wars here and not the Jedi Civil War, right ? It doesn't matter how many people left the Order after Revan's actions in the Mandalorian Wars for that. And the Clone Wars were the most devastating war next to the Vong War, for the Galaxy as well as for the Jedi.

Wonderful. Take the destruction of Taris.. Or was it Telos.

I think you are referring to Telos. I wonder how that actually matters ? I was comparing the Mandalorian Wars to the GSW, not the Jedi Civil War in which the destruction of Telos happened. So ?

Nowhere does it state that those 8 masters were some of the most powerful from existence. You're again distorting shit. Kun converted 20 dark Jedi, who killed 8 masters. Revan converted thousands of Jedi. There's no comparison here.

As this action was descriped as a "strike at the heart of the Jedi" I guess they were powerful, especially since they don't appear many "masters" to be around at that time. But just out of curiosity:

http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=082

Here you can see the already dying Dominus performing a force attack against his former student Zona Luka (last picture) which does apparently kill the Dark Jedi assassin. Hmm. Being able to execute other force users while being mortally wounded might be called "being powerful".

Who have shown us pretty much dick compared to some of the more powerful Jedi.

Urm. What "more powerful" Jedi are you talking about ? Let's take Obi-Wan as example. He lost the ability to "appear" as a force ghost roughly 15 years after his death. Vodo was capable of performing said action 4,000 years after his death. And Odan ? Aside from being the originator of the Jedi Code, he did fight and defeat Ancient Sith in personal confrontation. The list of people doing the same or dealing with individuals of compareable knowledge and power is actually quite short - if you consider the fact that one of said Ancient Sith did completely destroy all life on Ambria with a single Dark Side attack.

Of course it will be, where does it even state that a handful of Jedi went to destroy the dark reaper? Provide proof.

The Clone Wars game and the New Essential Cronology. It actually says that Ulic did just gave the Jedi the information to disable the Dark Reaper because he wanted to protect the likes of Nomi and Cay. Going by this it's pretty much assured that they did sent Jedi to disable the thing and that they were killed.

Another illogical assumption without proof? I didn't know you were an authority on who, if anybody, was guarding the senate doors.

Of course they would leave the Senate without guards just after the Mandalorians under Ulic crushed Coruscants defences when beginning the trial against the person responsible for that actions. I wonder what happened to all the people apparently swarming around in front of the building when Nomi and Cay did run to the trial...

Yet the GSW was absolutely nothing compared to the JCW in terms of death, death of jedi, and destruction. The galaxy was in shambles.

Notice how I didn't even compare them...

While I doubt the Exile saw more war than Ulic, I don't know what you're trying to prove with that quote.

That Ulic did obviously spread death to a genocidal level in the six months between "Dark Lords of the Sith" and "The Sith War".

Again, if you're comparing the GSW to the Mandalorian War, then you're right. But if you compare deaths of Jedi and destruction on the Galaxy, the GSW has absolutely nothing on the JCW.

Somehow it appears to me as if your posting was completely useless since I didn't compare the GSW to the JCW but to the Mandalorian Wars. I even said the JCW doesn't matter for this debate since the Exile didn't witness most of that conflict (she left after Malachor V and returned when the JCW was basically over already).

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. Care to give me a quote and source about that "thousands" because in the KotoR games I only see the term "many" coming up. And I was talking about the force users present under Malak's command which was a year after the Mandalorian War ended. Really...how many people from academies should have joined Revan's lines as completely trained Sith / Dark Jedi in that amount of time ?

You notice that I was still discussing the Mandalorian Wars here and not the Jedi Civil War, right ? It doesn't matter how many people left the Order after Revan's actions in the Mandalorian Wars for that. And the Clone Wars were the most devastating war next to the Vong War, for the Galaxy as well as for the Jedi.

Here you can see the already dying Dominus performing a force attack against his former student Zona Luka (last picture) which does apparently kill the Dark Jedi assassin. Hmm. Being able to execute other force users while being mortally wounded might be called "being powerful".

Urm. What "more powerful" Jedi are you talking about ? Let's take Obi-Wan as example. He lost the ability to "appear" as a force ghost roughly 15 years after his death. Vodo was capable of performing said action 4,000 years after his death. And Odan ? Aside from being the originator of the Jedi Code, he did fight and defeat Ancient Sith in personal confrontation. The list of people doing the same or dealing with individuals of compareable knowledge and power is actually quite short - if you consider the fact that one of said Ancient Sith did completely destroy all life on Ambria with a single Dark Side attack.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Enough to make "thousands". I'll find you some quote to appease yuo.

I'm looking forward to that great moment...

Logically the Jedi purge itself was the downfall of the Jedi and was worse than the JCW, but the JCW destroyed all but less than 100 Jedi. It is unknown how many jedi were left after the Jedi purge so that is debatable.

I was under the impression that Leland Chee did once post on the Holocron that about one percent (or less) of the Jedi did survive the Clone Wars. Taking 10,000 Jedi (TPM) as basis that would actually come down to around 100 Jedi survivors after Order 66. Can't find the post at the moment though (might also have been on the official boards).

Right, the same masters who were getting killed by their students were powerful. Good one. I suppose Vodo was a force god before Exar Kun owned him.

How many people in the SW universe are able to kill other force users instantly with a single force attack ? Kreia, Nihilus, Luke ? There are other which might be capable of doing that but it isn't an usual ability - especially not for a Jedi.

Wow, Vodo appeared as a force spirit, I guess that equates to more power. Wonderful argument Nai. I guess Datha Graush is a force god because he was rumored over 5,000 years old and still appeared as a spirit to some imperials that crashed on Korriban. And Odan? Tell me, which ancient sith did he defeat? The average ones? Give me a break.

First: Being able to remain as an invididual inside the force over that amount of time at the very least indicates some nice amount of knowledge. We know that some force spirits were bound by certain items (e.g. Pall by his sword or Nadd by the amulets). But how many force spirits have you seen that were able to move around in the Galaxy pretty much at will ? Vodo, Nadd, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin and Qui-Gon Jinn ? I'm counting six people out of 1000 generations of Jedi and Sith. Not impressive ?

Second: What "average" Sith Lords are you talking about ? As far as I recall KotoR, it was said that there were 20 Sith Lords around at any time (going by the fact that this is the number of Sith Lords attending Ragnos funeral, which should have been all there were). Being among the top twenty of most powerful beings ("the strongest shall rule"😉 of an entire race of force users translates into "average" how exactly ? Notice how one of that "average" (at least unnamed) Sith Lords did waste all live on Ambria with a single Dark Side attack. And notice how that happened 1,000 years before the time of Odan's death. If he was capable of overcoming Sith Lords (even "average" ones) at that point in time, I wonder what he's capable of doing with 1,000 more years of experience in which he certainly gained more force knowledge, power, etc.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Second: What "average" Sith Lords are you talking about ? As far as I recall KotoR, it was said that there were 20 Sith Lords around at any time (going by the fact that this is the number of Sith Lords attending Ragnos funeral, which should have been all there were). Being among the top twenty of most powerful beings ("the strongest shall rule"😉 of an entire race of force users translates into "average" how exactly ? Notice how one of that "average" (at least unnamed) Sith Lords did waste all live on Ambria with a single Dark Side attack. And notice how that happened 1,000 years before the time of Odan's death. If he was capable of overcoming Sith Lords (even "average" ones) at that point in time, I wonder what he's capable of doing with 1,000 more years of experience in which he certainly gained more force knowledge, power, etc. [/B]

The fact that the sith lords of Sadow's time showed absolutely nothing, except getting slaughtered by Jedi on Coruscant. That's why they're "average", and shouldn't be comparable to the powerhouses of the other ancient sith. Secondly, I don't know any of the details of who exactly did that shit to Ambria so I can't comment. Also, I haven't read I, Jedi, so I thought that Vodo just came out of a holocron to defeat Exar Kun. It seems unlikely that Vodo didn't appear to anybody for 4,000 years until the reawakening of Exar Kun.

It's rather amusing with how much persistance you manage to ignore facts. Ulic didn't just beat Mandalore. He did that without active use of force powers and without using his lightsaber. So your question should actually be: Can he repeat that on the battle field with his force powers and his lightsaber, while commanding thousands of other soldiers on his side. That would be equal to what the Exile did. And actually the question would be too stupid but still the answer would be „yes“.

Its rather amusing how you like to exaggerate and distort facts to fit your "argument." Simply because Ulic didn't use the force to go on the offensive with active powers, doesn't mean he wasn't using it passively to augment his physical power and speed which is something Mandalore can't detect. This argument is rather irrelevant, as both were feared and or respected on the field of battle by the Mandalorians which equates to a level of skill. That was the point, the Exile was skilled enough to garner their fear. It was to counter the "LAWLZ teh Exile is average so say Vrook!"

What we know is that the confrontation was descriped as being „epic“

Ah, no we don't. Where the hell is it described as "epic"? By NEC? The only thing in their I recall being mentioned is saying it was "hand to hand" combat. Canderous? Other then he wasn't even there (at Revan and Madalores battle) he seems to be rather uninformed on the details of that particular duel.

. Now Revan had his force powers and his lightsaber and obviously used them. Ulic did own a more powerful Mandalore with two strikes while not having that advantages. Can you draw the conclusion yourself ?

Yeah, I can. Other then Revan didn't have his saber and neither side can prove he did infact use the force against him (considering Revan wanted to beat the Mando's on their terms and Madalore isn't an idioit he'd probably specify "No force powers"😉 their is no conclusion in regards to which is more impressive to be drawn. And since we don't know how old MtheU was when he took the title of Mandalore there's no saying that MtheI would be better then him at the time of the Mandalorian Wars.

Oh. You mean like Kreia would know how the Mandalorians thought about the Exile ? You mean like Kreia was maybe just running her mouth to increase the Exile's confidence ? Could that be ?

Other then Kreia doesn't give out unnecessary cock sucking unless its due, I'd say not. And considering she's far more well informed then Aleema and she has displayed the power to read peoples minds (unlike Aleema) to the point that people trained to resist her (Atton) can't. Coupled with the fact that she stated she was at least near the epicenter of the Mandalorian Wars. This all makes her a FAR more credible source then Aleema.

You're ignorance is pretty annoying kid. He „fell of a cliff“ ? He was hammered down from that cliff by Ulic. And of course they were equal. Hence Mandalore was beaten by Ulic who sacrificed all advantages he had (force, lightsaber) and still won. Somehow your argument does actually contradict the BLATANT OBVIOUS EVENTS in the comic. Guess that means you're wrong.

Does that change the fact that he "fell of a cliff" No. But again, how is this impressive, he has passive abilities in the force that Mandalore can't detect ie: increasing his physical power with the force and his speed also with the force. You keep stressing how unfamiliar the weapon was to him. He didn't do anything with the weapon that showed any real skill, unless you equate slamming down on a weapon as hard as you can with the force to skill. He beat up a skilled non force sensitive...without force attacks and a lightsaber impressive? Sorta, but nothing nut worthy as your making it into

Let me analyse this. Ulic had the terrain advantage ? Let me see. Ulic stands on a freaking chain. Mandalore comes flying in with his flying mount. Terrain advantage ? Ulic ? No. That doesn't make sense. Then Ulic jumps up to Mandalore who is defending the high ground. Terrain advantage ? ULIC ? Erm...really...

Nice job taking me out of context, it was in reference to the last scene of the duel.

Now while I have to give you that KotoR 2 wasn't released when those lines were written: The Mandalorian Wars were still part of the continuity at that point of time. Still Mace decides to put the GSW above them and mentions that the GSW was enough to give Jedi nightmares. Which is only logical given the events of said wars which I've listed multiple times now. The onslaught of Kun and Ulic claimed more lives (and especially more Jedi, not even mentioning the horror of friends turning to the Dark Side) then the Mandalorian Wars. The following Jedi Civil War would be compareable but the Exile didn't witness the most of that.

Well other then when that was printed as you said KOTOR 2 wasn't out and we knew almost none of the details about the battles that we do now, Malachor went from a rather large fleet battle to the complete and utter loss of the Mandalorians and Republic and Jedi forces on a damn near genocidal level.

And still thats not what I'm talking about. Having a few bad dreams =/= breaking Jedi. Causing them to suffer a mental breakdown from the sheer ferocity of battle =/= nightmares. Again, I'm not talking about the death of Jedi, because numerous campaigns in the SW mythos far out due the Mandalorian Wars with that. The things the JEDI had to do to win battles such as commonly having to slaughter their foes completely to win, to even as the Exile had to do charging through minefields on useless feints straight into Mando's.

No, my friend. This is exactly what you're talking about. Events that can make Jedi lose their control, confidence, mind right on the spot. And the GSW had quite more of those than the Mandalorian Wars.

No, my friend thats not, giving into the dark side in a tissy fit isn't what I'm talking about. Its more about how a Jedi could NOT fall to the dark side and commit the atrocities that they did, having them be in complete and full control and STILL murder in such large numbers and even for the Exile to be completely sane and give out an order of what was pretty much genocide. Theres a difference.

Did you somehow miss the „notable“ in my statement. The attack on Dxun is notable because it was stated to have been extremely bloody and it went on over months. That, of course, can't be said for other battles of the Mandalorian Wars listed hence a Jedi won't suffer from them. The only other notable confrontation was that above Malachor V because we know the effects of the Mass Shadow Generator and the destruction of so many lives on force users.

Hence because we don't have a comic series devoted to the wars, judging by Canderous's descriptions of the battles, saying that most of the time the losses were always that sever. Over the 3 years that the war raged with the Jedi involved their were probably far more notable battles then those two. This same time around when KOTOR came out Malachor was the ONLY notable battle and the only one we knew about. And when did any battle in the GSW literally tear a hole in the force?

As I know that the application of logical reasoning is overexertion for you: The light side ending does determine the entire character of the Exile. That character has to fit the ending. Thereby commiting obvious „Dark Side“ acts is not possible as it doesn't fit the character of our protagonist. I'm pretty aware that the lightside ending is reachable even if you act „dark side“ in certain situations but the question is not: „What would you do ?“ the question is „What would a Jedi do ?

And thats were your wrong, the Exile is not a Jedi or at least was not trained by Kreia to be such, we can't simply define her entire course throughout the game based on her NOT blowing up Malachor V. We don't know enough about the Exile to make such a statement, lest you forget you can be completely neutral and still complete the game, with the Lightside ending. Moreover even the galactic records according to the Ultimate visual guide are inconsistent on these events:

Shades of History:
"Records are inconsistent concerning the tumultuous events of this devastating conflict." - UVG.

“ And „killing one of the Jedi masters“ won't be an option in that case.
And please. „Unnecessary kindness“ ? The decissions that require such are pretty rare in the game – so are Kreia's comments on certain decissions. In fact, the first minutes of Nar Shadda are the only thing that apply here. And still a Jedi would rather take the way that requires „unnecessary kindness“ than anything else.

Again, the Exile isn't a Jedi and based on the training regimen that Kreia gave her (to not adhere to any single dogma) combined with the fact she views the Exile as the "greatest she's ever trained" I don't think she'd give that label to someone who indulges constantly in acts she berates. Unless murdering hundreds upon hundreds is criteria for being a Jedi that I missed

And she does this more then just on Nar Shadda, she gives out constant lessons on "using" people and even if the Exile does do these "Jedish" acts to do them for her own self gain. She also wants the Exile to even view her as disposable, also she does these same acts should you choose to side with the Ithorians on Telos. And AGAIN on Dantooine should you choose to side with the settlers and completely diss the Mercs.

Finally since we have nothing stating the Exiles personality its just as easy to assume that she could have been bitter toward a particular master, and Zez even wishes for death by the Exile's hand.

See above. You should stop to argue out of ignorance.

Funny, thats exactly what your doing.

Second: There is no canon saying that Ulic can't destroy planets with the power of his will. Stupidity at it's best. If you want to make an argument than you have to present proof that your argument is correct. And absense of proof against your argument (which isn't even present here) doesn't fit that criteria.

Except in this case it does apply, because of the previously said points, YOU don't dictate the character and the LS ending is nothing more then blowing up Malachor and flying away, not an award ceremony for being the ideal Jedi. Meaning we can't define her characteristics based on a completely open ending in which the Exile can simply go back into Exile and ignore the conflicts of the galaxy (Not very Jedi like is that)

Oh, little kid. I, unlike you, are capable of reading.
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=3&page=014
„At least, after years of training, they are to go forth to a mission of justice“
Years means, at the very least two years. Again you have been owned by the source material.

Conceded, hence why I ASKED you for proof, and to back up your statements.

Oh. You can make the Exile learn the ability ? Ah yeah...force deflection. That would help against starship fire ? Going by the fact that we actually see quite a lot of Jedi dying through blaster fire I doubt that this technique was commonly known.

And? Now tell me how will this help Ulic in a fight against a FORCE USER with a LIGHTSABER.

Again. Lightsiders don't use Darkside powers. By the way: Where did you ever see somebody teaching the Exile some Dark Side powers ?

Luke, Anakin, Kyle Katarn, Jaden Korr, ULIC QEL DROMA, Sylvar, Revan, Jacen ect ect ect would all like to have a word with you as Jedi who either used the dark side or did a "dark" power. And then theres the fact that the Exile isn't a Jedi. And being as though Kreia taught her many things from Jedi to Sith lore, its far from unbelievable that in those months they spent together she learned nothing and the only things they talked about were the things in the dialog options...really now. 🙄

The amulet would already be enough. Aside of that we could argue to what extend Kun shared his knowledge with Ulic in which case there might be a nice amount of force attacks the Exile has never seen in action.

No, it wouldn't, we've already been through the "Kun sharing his knowledge" it likely didn't happen as Ulic shows not a care for the Sith Lore or knowledge, displays none and was busy planning and executing a war on Kun's behalf. If your going to bring in the "Master Apprentice" crap then they don't display the same master student relationship say Palpy and Vader do. Hence why it was called a "Brotherhood" meaning for the most part their equals and Kun is acknowledged as the leader. Also what kind of master allows his underlings to willfully disobey him with no punishment what so ever.

Your weak arguments are getting boring. First: I did never assume it was Ulic alone. Second: You really want to tell me that the „astonishing transformation“ is refering to Ulic's personality ? Now really. Aleema wakes up, looks at Ulic and notices a change of his personality ? Great. Especially when she only mentions power right in the next sentence. That totally makes sence. I'm really convinced by your astonishing explanation. But one little probleme here: That was most likely the most nonsensical bullshit I've ever read here, which means a lot considering Noobaris usual postings.

Coming from someone who needs to exaggerate and omit facts to even help his argument I'm truly not trying to impress you. And other then in that sentence she's talking about Exar AND Ulics power TOGETHER rippling. Now the ONLY context it makes sense in is personality unless as said somehow gaining a tattoo makes you stronger in the force (I'll be waiting for proof on that BS claim) then theres the fact that you'd have to prove Aleema can differentiate Kun and Ulics DS energy, especially when WE visibly see it combined and Aleema notes about their COMBINED energy.

You willfully ignoring the story to be "right" is your own fault. That "Transformation" is representative of Ulics complete fall, as I said before in the last scene he's totally reluctant about his choice and thinks he's still destroying the dark side from within, then in the next scene he's AGREEING to take over the galaxy. You saying that this is in regards to power is BEYOND dumb.

Do I have to spell out everything obvious to you ? Aleema can kill anybody with said illusions that she can fool with that illusions. Meaning that she would be able to kill every Jedi but Nomi Sunrider who was the only one that noticed that the illusions were, you know, illusions.

And again, so what. That makes her stronger then Kreia or the Exile how? And didn't she use some meditation sphere.

Let's just again enter the funny realm of speculation. What Kreia „had“ was extensive knowledge about the Sith history and, aside of that, knowledge about some Dark Side abilities most notably her force drain. Going by the fact you don't know what the book contained: Speculation.
And Sadow's knowledge ? The guy obviously had enough knowledge to alter lifeforms, generate new ones, blow sunsystems up, create solar flares. In short: He knew quite a lot about Sith magic and Sith alchemy, two disciplines that Kreia (as well as most people living after Kun's time) didn't know jack shit about. Sadow's knowledge is quite as close as you can get to „all knowledge of the Ancient Sith“ without asking Ragnos personally for details. And the only one who actually did that was Sidious.

And that book compares to according to the chronicles the many years Kreia spent on a planet sized sith storehouse? And no, Sadows knowledge is NOT all the Sith knowledge neither is Ragnos's as the Sith predated him, and Sadow's knowledge which is ONE sith lords perspective that specialized in Alchemy and science somehow compares to a:

an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith. - The Chronicles

Which includes knowledge that Sadow nor Kun never displayed. And really how does knowing Sith Alchemy equate to power in a fight? This would help him how? And all the feats you listed for Sadow not involving Alchemey were due to the fact that he had a plethora of Sith trinkets to help him do these feats be it from his amulets, his ship, his meditation sphere. The most we see him do WITHOUT the aid of his Sith toys is lob a non lethal brick at Ludo Kreesh. Ragnos however is an unknown, while it is stated that he has an very powerful grasp on the Dark Side as well as physically powerful that again equates to "all the knowledge of the sith how" how exactly?

It's nice that you slowly begin to understand the worth of superior knowledge, control and skill. Why was Kas'im able to come up with an „unexpected“ manouver ? Because he exceeded Bane in lightsaber mastery. Now let's apply this obseveration on a duel between the Exile and Ulic. The Exile might be able to mimic everything that Ulic shows to her, same way Bane did mimic Kas'im. But she still won't have the lightsaber mastery that Ulic does possess. Or, to make it short, the ability to use improvisation. Because if you only „copy“ something you can't come up with something new. Thus meaning that Ulic's advantage in terms of lightsaber combat will always stay the same. You can't „negate“ that as you want us to believe.

First you'd have to prove that Ulics lightsaber skills are anything to nut your pants over, as I've shown the extent to his saber skills that have been shown for the version of him were using is: Stalemating an Exar Kun who hadn't even completed his lightsaber training. Moreover you've YET to define what "master swordsman" even means. That title has been thrown around in Star Wars so much that its not even impressive anymore, him being a "master swordsman" puts him on the level of who? Sera Keto? Sora Bluq? Cin Darllig? Qui Gon Jinn? Really now, unquantified statements mean nothing. Also consideirng she's able to hold back Sion, Atris and dice off Kreia's hand shes more then proved herself in that department.

And she DOES negate lightsaber mastery, or are you blind to the quote I posted? She completely took away Vrook's lightsaber mastery, as a factor in a fight, Vrook being one of the most power Jedi Masters in the galaxy, claiming he's pretty much mastered Shien, took 2 force waves from Kreia and got right back up, yet the Exile can beat Vrook with little to no retraining in the the force simply by mimicking his form. Your wrong.

It takes one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the Galaxy before Kun's utter extermination of them (Vodo)

LOL now I KNOW your on crack.

, a prodigy that would – some years later – become the de facto leader of the Jedi Order (Nomi Sunrider) and the power of six additional Jedi to temporarily affect Ulic with the wall of light attack. You were saying ?

Other then its NOT stated it actually took ALL of them to do it its just what they used, same as with Exar Kun's death, it didn't take ALL the Jedi in the galaxy to stop him, its just what they used. Wanna distort some more fact for us?

She absorbed the unknown amount of energy of an unknown quantity of beings adding this to her unknown amount of basic power. Impressive. Unfortunatelly it really doesn't help you to proof anything. Luke Skywalker, without ever draining somebody, is the most powerful being seen so far in the SW universe while DE Sidious, after draining billions of beings was overcome by Luke with some aid of Leia. Somehow it does appear to me as if those mindless action of tossing in some random points doesn't get you anywhere. Unless you present me some force feats that proof the Exile is above Ulic, I – and no other reader here – have no reason to believe that the Exile's raw power even rivals that of Ulic not even mentioning that she might surpass him in that department.

Since when does Nai speak for the entire forum? Get over yourself kiddo. I find this HILARIOUS that your asking this when Ulics sole force feats of any note is limited to resisting energy. And AGAIN you distort facts, Luke was being aided by Liea AND baby Anakin, Three SKYWALKERS, really now not even Sidious compares to that, and even though the Exiles number of people drained pales in comparison to what Palpatine did, thats besides the point, as Sidious is the most powerful dark side being to ever exist. Comparing the two is rather dumb. Now, its far from completely unknown as you once again tried to distort, Zez even says its at LEAST about two hundred. Aside from having her force power boosted by 5 force sensitives one who happens to be Kreia, the constant notes of her force power, it taking 3 masters to even touch her in the force, her being able to MASTER force abilities it takes Jedi Masters years to do and even still some fail. More then proves she is above Ulic in the force other then that:

The Exile beating the foes shes doen proves it also, and its either one or the other either she's very skilled with a saber or very skilled with the force, as those are the only logical ways these foes can be beaten, such as Atris whom has the aid of DOZENS of Sith holocrons and we've seen that ONE Sith Holocron can turn a pretty average force user into a powerhouse, and yet she has a room FULL of them combined with the Jedi knowledge she took from the archives on Dantooine, also she even says that they are FULL of force and combat knowledge. So I'd like you to tell me how the Exile could beat a person like this without being either of the before mentioned things?

The omniscient narrator notes Ulics power. Why you actually even post such statements ?

That would of course help her in an actual duel, especially since we've never seen her performing this in an actual fight.

That wasn't the point, the point was to show that she has a prodigal learning rate upon her return to the force, thats why she can go from having no force connection and being very weak to being able within a few months to beat 3 of the strongest beings in the galaxy. That is a prodigy.

a) Since when does the ability to mimic things is a testament of power ?

When it starts negating the advantage of Jedi Masters who've trained in that style for decades.

amount of time just to use the technique with an unknown grade of skill afterwards.b) Nice. She can learn things by observing people for an unknown

Enough skill to beat Master Jedi.

Aside from the fact that this, again, has never been demonstrated in battle making the usage of this argument rather questionable for this debate,

Been through this, regardless of the DS or LS ending by simpying going to Dantooine after Telos and sideing with the Mercs, you can fight Vrook, this puts the Exile at the same amount of skill level as she would if you were playing on the lightside. Meaning the feat extends to both.

I still don't see where it should get her. She can't anticipate „new“ movements instantly, meaning Ulic might still strike her down with a lightsaber before she figured out how to deal with him.

And there you'd be wrong again, The Exile has amazing precognitive abilities that the Handmaiden described as incredibly dangerous, even though this is through the male playthrough she states this at the start of the training when the Exile has had no specific training by the Handmaiden in that department, meaning this ability extends to the female play through it just doesn't become as "honed" as the males but its "incredibly dangerous" none the less.

Oh. That makes the individual Mandalorian more powerful how exactly ?

it doesn't, but a collective group of Mandalorians > Mandalore

I could have pulled that off in the same situation. It was a cheap shot. That's it.

Sure thing tough guy lol.

What cutscene on Malachor ? The one where her powers have been drained by Nihilus and she, without any defence because of that, gets kicked around by Sion ?

Its not a drain, it doesn't be have like a drain, look like a drain thus its not a drain, as she can visibly still use the force (her lightsaber) and we are given descriptives of what Nihlius drain does, Kreia says its instant and theres no lingering affect, then we see Kreias drain which was instant.

That means she fears Sion while being in her normal condition ? Obviously that is not the case given how she insults him and keeps him like a b*tch once she has her power back. Arguing against facts much ?

And then he slices her hand off...sounding like a retard much?

Are you that stupid ? You really must be. So the ground troops send down to Malachor by Revan were instantly broken when setting a food on the planet ? You did notice that it was the destruction of Malachor and the wound in the force created thereby was which caused everything you have mentioned ? No. Obviously you didn't realize that.

What are you talking about?

A.) Their were no ground troops sent, it was a fleet battle, its stated multiple times.

B.) Revan wasn't even there for the intial part of the battle, he came in after the MSG went off and essentially played the roll of "clean up"

C.) Revan HIMSELF was nearly broken by this energy at least two years before the battle of Malachor:

Part IX: Darth Revan Rising
Time frame: 3,963 B.B.Y.
Period name: Knights of the Old Republic
REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. - The Chronicles.

D.) It was Revan and the planet causing this:

Part X: Proving Grounds
Time frame: 3,961 - 3,956 B.B.Y.
Period name: Knights of the Old Republic
Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle, destroying the Mandalore and ending the Mandalorian threat. Simultaneously, more and more Jedi, unable to ignore the power emanating from the planet below, become corrupted by its influence.

E.) Finally, the power of Malachor remains

Part XII: The Feeding of Malachor V
Time frame: 3,955 - 3,953 B.B.Y.
Period name: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
JEDI MASTER KREIA, Revan's old mentor, is still haunted by guilt, wondering whether it was her teaching that resulted in Revan's fall to the dark side, and begins to search for him. Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force. She is lost to the Jedi, spending the next several years on Malachor V, learning its secrets, and eventually becoming The master of the Sith academy there. Guided by Kreia's influence, Sith assassins once again begin to emerge silently from Malachor V and strike at isolated Jedi across the Republic, capturing some Jedi to turn to the dark side, and slaying those that resist. Taken to the dark side world of Malachor V to be fed to the planet's dark energies, these Jedi husks create even more assassins and DARK JEDI, feeding the planet's hunger.

And Iziz is a city spanning „thousands of square miles“. I guess the Trayus Academy on Malachor (which is the „dark side place“ there) simply pales in comparison to that. Unless you show me were the Exile needed days / years to walk through it.

DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. - The Chronicles

Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient,planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith. - The Chronicles

Wrong again.

Needing eight Jedi to actually touch you pretty much tops that. Yes.

Other then your wrong.

Stalemating Kun who had mastered Sith magic and alchemy completely also tops this. Easily.

Which coralates to his dueling how? Oh yeah thats right...it doesn't.

Aside of that: Ulic still only has to replicate his personal first use of the amulet. Nothing else.

Which proves how that he'd be able to harm the Exile with who can take attacks Nihlius, and Atris who has decades upon decades more knowledge about Sith powers then Ulic.

Given how Nomi Sunrider who becomes the leader of the Jedi some years later can't match Ulic in terms of power alone I'd say he's pretty much the prodigy of that time.

Glad you can answer this for yourself, the prodigy for that time is as you've said Kun.

Your so called logic and your so called arguments really mark you as epitome of stupidity. Nadd pretty much tells Ulic that he will become „one of the great“ force users with only one being (namely Kun) being even greater then him. Of course Nadd did think that Ulic will overcome Warb Null. The point is: Who else could ? Given how easily Warb Null deals with anybody else to state that he „blows“ is pretty hilarious. Really.

Other then its OMININ who says Warb blows and he expects him to be easily beaten, who has no express knowledge of Ulic apparent destiny.

Aside of that this is a nice example of a circle argument. We take a wrong premise as basis (in this case “Ulic sucks”). Then we proceed to the next step (in this case “Because Ulic did suck and he did beat Warb Null, Warb Null must suck too”). Now for completing the circle we use the argument to proof or basic argument (here “Because Warb Null sucked and Ulic did just barely beat him, Ulic must suck !”). Congratulations. That's really the highest class of debating skill archieveable...by complete morons like yourself.

Other then I didn't say "Ulic sucked" at that time he was nowhere as good as he is, and he defeats Warb by using the dark side.

I'm not missquoting her. That's exactly what she says. I'm so sorry, dude.

Then again "dude" you'd be wrong. She is DIRECTLY talking about lighrsaber skill.

And I don't have to proof that Warb was possessed by someone who had the skill of Tulak Hord. Kreia still talks about the Ancient Sith in general.

No, she didn't other then she said ancient sith "Lords" more specifically the ones who used lightsabers ie: none we've ever seen.

And GaotS shows what exactly ? What I see is muscle packed freaks with huge swords. Of course some of them get killed, yes. That says what exactly, ass they are either taken down by surprise attacks OR by Jedi ?

So yes cause they had huge musckels tehy must be powa! Or we can go by the fact that Sadows entire Coruscant invasion force was being contained and beaten back by four Jedi...they got murked.

Judging lightsaber skills going by pictures without any display of movement surely is a nice idea.

Especially when we only see him do ONE movement with his new blade and were given NO indication that anything else happened, he pulled out the DBLS and crashed it into Vodo's stick, thats the extent of his seen skill tih it.

Fact: Nobody was capable of sucessfully challenging Exar Kun at the end of his life. That puts his lightsaber skill above anybody else alive at this point in time which would be – erm „thousands upon thousands of Jedi“.

What? No, that could EASILY mean his force skill was too much any one Jedi to handle (the logical answer) as he seems to be FAR more proficient with the force then a saber. But nice job AGAIN at distorting facts.

Somehow it really doesn't seem as if his style sucked. But of course we can have a look to the other epitomes of lightsaber combat: Somehow it seems as if they develop their skill to practice rather than through actual duels.

Are you blind? Anakin went from an alright padawan, to pretty much pound for pound the best duelist in the Star Wars mythos in a matter of 3 years which he was out fighting in a WAR and in constant duels with Dark Siders. For Mace Windu's style to be truly perfected he had to go through the events in Shatterpoint. Practice doesn't mean shit. Its testing themselves in life or death situations that they become better.

Do you know how many practice sessions Kun has gone through ? Oh no.

And really...who would he go against? Ulic was busy fighting his wars, he'd piss on his little neophytes, he has no real challengers to test himself against.

Obviously enough to become the best duellist of his time –

Whose ass did you pull that out of? The only way he'd get that title is by default since we don't see but 20 Jedi in the TOTJ series when theres THOUSANDS running around. Lets remember Kuns lightsaber skills are limited to his force connection, his incomplete lightsaber training from Vodo, and him creating a new lightsaber which the most he shows with it is swinging it like a club.

And starting like this: What made the Exile so great as she duelled precisely nobody (for all we know) until the events of KotoR 2 ?

And? Were not debating The Exile before the events of KOTOR now are we?

Ahahaha. A talent for wielding a certain type of weapon is obviously not linked to some force connection. Otherwise there would be no prodigies in the Martial Arts sector which still seem to exists on planet Earth where force sensitive people are rather erm...non-existant. Obviously it can be explained by dedication to the art (e.g. Dooku / Kas'im), practice or a damn lot of other reasonable explanations where everything you have to offer is „duelling experience“ and „force power“.

So wait, 6 months of undetermined time of practice (this is assuming it didn't take half of that time to even create the damn thing) is comparable to the decades upon decades it took Kas'im to master these styles as well as Dooku? 😆 in which BOTH of these duelist supreb mastery of the styles was rendered irrelevant by a young, force powerhouse duelist. Your starting to reach fanboy heights of a new limit. And comparing real world things to a science fiction story is erm...dumb.

Urm. What „same Sith“ are you talking about ? The spirits of ancient force users aside from some special occassions (Nadd, Kun, Ragnos) are pretty much powerless in their spectral forms as can be noticed in KotoR especially when Revan confronts Pall who keeps whining about how weak he got or Nadd in the TOTJ comics who himself states that he isn't a thread for any Jedi in his current state. But as you're talking about Sith from Korriban you must be talking about some of Kun's students. Erm...where did you see some of them surviving ?

I'm definitely sure NEC says that they fled Yavin for Korriban, other then that the Academy was up and running about a year after Kun's defeat as we've seen from the Shadows and Light comic. And Canderous says the Sith fled back into their empire. Then theres Evil Never Dies saying this:

Political concerns were already beginning to take precedence over justice within the Republic, and instead of hunting down the remaining members of Exar Kun's Brotherhood of the Sith,

See above.

Once again, the above is wrong.

Being equal to Kun in lightsaber combat is impressive enough. In the force he technically can't have been much worse compared to Kun. Otherwise Kun would have owned him on the spot which he didn't. Of course Kun at the end of his life was more powerful than Ulic and even there and then he was most likely superior to Ulic when it came to force powers. Yet he, while clearly having the intention to kill Ulic on the spot, didn't try to own Ulic with his force powers.

No, actually its not. Especially not that Kun. Maybe he saw that Aleema could resist his force powers to a point that she didn't die so he saw no point in using them against Ulic, the obvious more powerful of the two, or maybe in some sort of machoism he wanted a straight up duel, who knows. Who cares.

When has Kreia ever shown to be anything special in terms of lightsaber combat ?

Force Connection does a great deal to help with Ligthsaber combat, compounded by the fact she can wield 3 simultaneously. But of course I forgot you need KJA crappy narration saying "Masterswordsman!" for it to even be considered.

Given how pathetically easy Sion did cut her other hand off, I don't see how that action would need a “skilled duellist” to perform.

Considering she tried to fight him with a Vibro blade, and her force connection grew with the Exiles, she was far from her most powerful state, as she visibly shows fear (noted by the Exile with a high level of awareness) when she talks about the approaching Sith (Sion) while of Peragus.

Highly advanced precognition ? Why don't you simply write: And she's a Jedi. Because that actually applies to all of them.

I'm so glad you can pay attention, precognition is an ability, which can obviously be enhanced either due to natural talent or training in it (much like the Shatterpoint or Battle Meditation) it can be enhanced to the point that people like Revan can see battles months in the future, now as for The Exile her obviously extends beyond the normal Jedi standards, as the Handmaiden noted and as she can see danger/traps/enemies ahead of time. And ability which would have saved how many Jedi in the Clone Wars or any war for that fact?

And precognition itself makes you dangerous ? Since when ?

Since your reaction time is higher then your opponents, meaning regardless of your own level of skill you can defend against it, meaning that even if the Exile doesn't have the saber skill to flat out duel Ulic (doubtful, given the fact she can do it with Masters with little retraining) she can still defend against Ulic long enough to copy his movements and turn his own style back in his face.

Rediculous. So first she will miracously manage to hold a lightsaber prodigy off which combat style is completely unknown to her.

She did it to Vrook, and since when is Ulic a lightsaber prodigy? I didn't know being called a "master swordsman" = prodigy, because as said that would go for the magnitude of other Jedi/Sith I've mentioned. Now this was the same "uber" prodigy that gets shot in the back by training droids. But aside from that I'd like a quote that says he's a lightsaber prodigy since your so intent on claiming it, his best saber feats are killing Warb in a dark side rage and stalemating a padawan.

Then she will do this over an unknown amount of time until she's able to mimic Ulic's movements, while we don't even know if she can learn that fast in combat.

Um we do, given the precognition, and the mimic ability.

And then Ulic will just wait for that moment instead of doing something.

No, never said that, the dialog conversations don't realistically last any more then a few seconds, then the fight continues.

For example: Blast her to death with that nice Sith amulet

The same amulet that with Ulic in a full fit of rage managed to knock Nomi down and make her rub her head...then get back up two panels later. SoooOOOooo powerful.

or cut her into pieces since she needs to anticipate movements which, precog or not, can not be done before the movements are actually performed.

You don't seem to get what "Battle Precognition" does do you? It does allow you to anticipate the movements before their performed. I'll use a boxing analogy take the Floyd Maywheather/ Diego Corrales fight, Diego was the MUCH stronger boxer but simply because Floyd was so damn fast and had such high reflexes that Diego couldn't touch him as Floyd simply dodged or blocked and completely negated his power advantage.

Now apply this to the Exile combined with the fact she already a very skilled duelist, due to the fact she can go one on one with Atris who had dozens of Sith and Jedi holocrons at her disposal, dice off Kreia's hand, be able to beat any one master save for Kavar with little re training in the force, and being able to hold back Sion, long enough to kill him.

Yes. Being able to listen to some “surface thoughts” now translates into “digging into peoples heads”. Hilarious.

Hilarious that she goes back to continue the lesson and can completely read their minds. Ups!

Then, of course, her nature makes the Exile a prodigy because she – can reproduce movement after some (minutes ? Seconds ? Hours ? Days ?)

Obviously either minutes or seconds as thats how long her duels with the Masters lasted, unless you want to idiotically assume that their duel lasted for days 🙄

of training with a master teaching her a certain technique.

And so other Masters didn't have any coaching from someone who already knew it?

Kun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kreia

Kreia>Kun during his fight with Ulic.

Sidenote: Why do you list Kreia's most important power (in fact the only impressive she ever used) when it's the very same technique that can't be used against the Exile?

It was what she was capable of doing, and yes I'd assume that force waving three Jedi Masters at once, being able to tool DS Exile around in the force (Dantooine) Being able to see 4000 years in the future, having spent years on Malachor, can dig through peoples minds, has a healing ability in Star Wars thats only comparable to Cade Skywalkers, Was able to cloak herself from Mical while they were literally living next to each other, was able to cloak herself from Jedi Masters while standing in their faces, could make force users forget things. Oh yeah, she did nothing impressive.

Still not compareable to stalemating Kun.

So wait, let me get this straight...Atris, a Jedi Master, keeper of the archives, someone who was good enough to be put on the very first Jedi High Council, Some one who had a room full of Sith Holocrons which she says she heavily delved into, which she says contain combat and knowledge of force powers (we've seen what ONE Sith Holocron can do to an average force user let alone DOZENS) Not only that she has most of the Jedi holocrons from Dantooine. Knowledge in which even Malak searched for.

And yet Kun and padawan, who has ONE Sith Lords notes (at the time) who hasn't even completed his training, and whos on a dark side kick is now comparable to that^. Get real.

You mean she survived long enough to talk him into death.

The same Exile who as YOU noted couldn't even hang with Sion in their previous encounter. And yet this time (by YOUR own words) logically managed to land blows on Sion and hold him off long enough while drawing power from Malachors dark power, to convince him to die.

Maybe she will start talking until Ulic has fallen into a nice sleep and cut him down then.

Oh wow that was hilarious ❌

Of course nobody did ever notice Ulic's power... 🙄

Was that the point? No.

Again “reading surface thoughts” doesn't mean the same thing as “digging into people's heads”

Been addressed.

which is even less likely when the “target” of such an ability is a force user.

The Exiles entire crew save for the droids and Mandalore are force sensitive...and depending on where you are in the game force users. Visas is regardless of your place in the game.

More precisely please. She gained an unknown amount of power from an unknown amount of beings which she added to her unknown previous skill (average, mediocre). The result still remains an unknown. But by sheer grandeur of your messiahesque persona this proofs that the Exile > Ulic in terms of raw force power.

See kids thats what a "Straw Man" is.

We've been through this, she gained "enough" power to beat Sion, Atris and Kriea, Sion and Kreia were back to back victories. She was noted by Zez to have drained AT LEAST 200 hundred beings. And your quote of her being (average, mediocre) is of her as a padawan, and she later becomes feared by the Mandalorians which alone shows her skill. Your using defeated points and saying the "same old shit" get something new, because this is getting boring. fast.

Ok. Arguing against canon wasn't your smartest decission. Arguing some bug in the game as canon now definetely trumps all. Where does one of them “get up” ? Kreia attacks, they die.

You really are dumb arent you? First she force waves them to get them off the Exile hence the:

"Get away from her!"

Force Wave

Vrook pops right back up and charges

"I said GET AWAY from her!"

Anther force wave.

"You will not touch her, you will not ever harm her again!"

More dialog, then she murks them.

This is again just one great cycle argument.
“Those beams don't look alike”
“Yeah. Different artists.”
“This is an out of universe explanation and aside of that: They don't look alike.”
I'd say your amount of knowledge about how to apply logical reasoning is matching the knowledge of a dead fish when it comes to freeclimbing.

Maybe you should think about an argument and not the unclever jokes you seem to find so amusing.

Regardless of the different artist, they're supposed to be the same attack, and yet they look completely different, does force lightning look different depending on the artist, no not really. Now what can be deduced based on how it looks (an uncontrolled stream of energy) is that, that wa what it was: An uncontrolled stream of energy, unleashed by Ulic in an out of control fit or rage.

Oh yes. Explanation: See above. Aside of that let's not forget how that little fight goes on.
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=103
Kun: “The energy keeps increasing”
Narrator: “With every pulse of his anger the amulet doubles the power of its discharge”

Obviously: The longer you wear and use it, the more control you gain and the more powerful the damage dealt by the amulet gets.

Um how did you draw that dumbass conclusion? Especially when Exar himself, even says he could BARLEY control it as it got more powerful, and he even says it nearly killed him. Nice deduction Sherlok.

Oh. It's missinterpretation day again ? First this is an expression of Kun's thoughts. Second: It's not “It almost killed him” but “It almost destroyed him”.

Same f*cking difference, if he gets destroyed...he'd be killed right ...jesus christ, use your damn head.

Third and last: We see that this thought is obviously wrong considering how he uses the amulet again to exterminate Nadd just five seconds later

Didn't you yourself just say it was an undetermined amount of time? And really ONE use does NOT compare to the large constant blasts that Exar sent out which were doubling and his rage more and more.

and how he later also uses the amulet when attacking the Senate on Coruscant.

Again ONE use which isn't the same application that he did which "almost killed him"

Other then this, even the DSSB says that he's harmed with each blast of the amulet.

You can argue this until you are blue in the face: Ulic is at least capable of bringing the Exile down on her knees with one blast which would enable him to kill her.

No he's not, you'd have to prove that it can harm that one unexpected blast on Nomi can even harm the Exile, considering the Exile by the end of KOTOR is far more powerful then Nomi Sunrider at that point.

And please. The “limit” that should be used in debates is what Ulic has shown when using the amulet for the first time, without even knowing what it does exactly ? Really. You would have to estimate that Kun didn't tell him a thing about the amulet despite the fact, that Ulic was his apprentice. And this over the time-span of six months. Laughable.

Would it matter? If Kun could barley perform the above mentioned feat with the amulet, what makes you think Ulic who is obviously weaker in the force then Exar and who has FAR less control then Exar could even come close to what Exar did? Thats whats laughable, but I now I'm going to get some misinterpreted exaggeration on "ASTONISHING TRANSFORMATIONS!!!!111"

Again. There is one person with one single power able to counter Aleema's illusions.

Does that make sense to you ? Because apparently Aleema was capable of fooling, and thereby killing, everybody but Nomi with her illusions.

Other then your either lying or misinformed, probably lying, Ulic and Nomi were the only Jedi there they were the overseers of the mission for the Republic, Aleema was capable of fooling, and thereby killing Tetan warriors and Ulic Qel Droma(who has time and time again shown to be the sharpest knife in the drawer)

Obviously Nomi made herself more powerful by using her battle meditation which is pretty apparent since she uses it to defend herself against the attack of Aleema.

And thats where you fail she uses it as an attack:

"As the light I expand filling the room dissolving these dreadful illusions"

Moreover, even if she was effectively using the BM as a shield, theres no indication she kept it on herself, infact the on panel evidence says she was using it on ULIC

Ulic: Your trying to push me with your battle meditation.

That doubled with the surprise of him pulling it out his ass is the reason why there was no defense mounted what so ever to the attack, unlike what she did with Aleema, not that it did any real damage what so ever as she was perfectly fine and the situation didn't demand her to get back up right away as Cay and Qrrl took care of him.

Go and read the comics before starting to argue with me.

And just who in the blue hell are you?

I'm deleting the mess of insults your trying to dish out, other then the fact that you uh, are wrong on about 90% of the things in question, you don't know what the f*ck your going on about, you exaggerate feats to no end, you omit facts to help your "argument". Your grammar is so horrid I would think your an illegal immigrant, You have an EXTREMELY over inflated ego (about Star Wars) you've committed numerous logical fallacies, aside from your constant strawmans (since I didn't want to bore and bog down this argument with labeling them all, but it seems I'll have to start) and yet I'm the kid? If I'm the "dumb kid" then your the idiotic 25 year old loser who spends his nights arguing with said "dumb kids" about the power of fictional characters.

The power of the blast is neither determined by force power, nor did it almost kill Kun. It's based on hatred and Kun seems to be just fine and confident enough to use the amulet some seconds after giving the previous statement. Without being killed, wounded, destroyed or damaged otherwise.

And your dead wrong...again.

It just proofs that your entire "but she had X years to become more powerful" arguments are useless.

And, as said: upon her return to the force the Exile has a prodigal learning rate.

No. What doesn't change is, when it comes down to facts, that it needed two people using their physical strength and their force power to keep Ulic where he was for a few seconds. A wounded Ulic if I may add that. What you again try to do is taking some small scale observation and try to apply it as only viable observation in the grant sheme of things.

Comparison: Kreia after being force drained had the living shit kicked out of her by the Sion. Conclusion: Kreia's a weakling. As you see, that doesn't make any sense.

Exactly, little you say does, Kreia was stripped of the force, Ulic was in dark side fit and had his ribs injured. There TOTALLY the same thing

Go and tell that to General Grievous who's "weak" droid body was actually based on the construction of a Krath War Droid. But he totally sucks of course. 🙄

BASED. Who were supposed to be Jedi killers and earned that title by shooting Arca in the back, does that make Cay a genius mechanic who can reproduce Grevious level tech? No.

Typed the guy who just two minutes before stated how notable it must be that Qrrl overpowered Ulic with one hand.

No, I said how LAUGHABLE it was that Qrrl was able to do that to your god Ulic.

So if a force user uses only one hand to hold somebody down (while using the force to do it at the same time) that some notable thing. If a force users suffers from a physical injury it doesn't matter, because he's a force user. Hilarious.

Yeah, kinda like how Sion can still move around and fight despite being in constant pain, kinda like how due to being a force user Vader was able to survive having his legs and arm chopped off and being lit on fire, kinda like how Obi Wan can take multiple blows to the head by Durge while poisoned and still fight, kinda like how Sidious can have his face melted off and hop up the next second, kinda like how Mace can suffer from MULTIPLE physical wounds and still be able to take on Kar f*cking Vastor. You said it yourself: "physical injury it doesn't matter".

how did you develop the thought that KotoR masters > Vodo ?

Um because in the little time they are shown they do more in the name of feats that Vodo.

All done.

I didn't see a 600 year old KotoR master, save for Vandar maybe but he had nothing to do with the Exile. Then of course, we have Nomi here who's by far > any of the KotoR masters. Adding another six Jedi did surely help. Really. What did you want to tell me ? KotoR > all ? Nice you've outed yourself as a fanboy once again. Aside of that you're still quite the pathetic noob.

Wow what a hasty generalization you got there and half of that drap doesn't even make sense, I didn't know age defined power that must be why he got beat by a 20something year old and could by himself fight anther 20something guy. And yeah at the time in question I'd rank any of the KOTOR masters above Nomi. by the sheer fact that they have more then 3 years of training under their belt and about 2 minutes of lightsaber training as she refused to use on during her training with Thon. And I'm a pathetic noob? Way to out due yourself with clever insults that are what 7 or 8 years old? Hey thats almost the age your acting. And [i]I'm[/] a fanboy? So says the guy who claims Ulic will beat the Exile in one second so says the guy who has to lie to try to win a debate.

So to sum this up. You're really trying to win a debate by having no proof for your personal oppinion. And instead from trying to actually find some, you come up with the same useless statements, wrong premises, ignorance of the actual material as well as the overall canon and of course baseless speculations again and again. Nice job. But it still doesn't help you winning debates.

I've MORE then given enough proof in the form of in-game statements, shown powers, and logical deductions, let me see what have you given in for the "pro Ulic" argument: He was a lightsaber prodigy (false) he is a masterswordsman (true but I've asked you time and time again to quantify this, and it gets ignored) he stalemated a padawan, he (in a dark side fir of rage) decapitated the scrub Warb and finally he resisted dark side energy. Oh wow, I mean I have to admit right there you've got me beat, there's absolutely nothing that even compares to what Ulic has done :rolleseyes:

I'd like to recomment Arthur Schopenhauers "Die Kunst, Recht zu behalten" ("The Art of Controversy"😉 - maybe that will help you to come up with something useful. Dum spiro, spero. 🙄 [/B]

Theres also a little something I'd like to recommend to you that is:

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and

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