Originally posted by Galan007I'd be interested Galan.
Excellent. 👆So who else is actually willing to be part of this panel? Granted, I may have to send out a few PMs, because I doubt everyone is aware that this thread is back, but I'm just curious. Like leo mentioned, I'd like to have at least 5 different people.
Originally posted by leonidasThat seems like a pretty efficient way to make some of the bigger changes to me. After that's settled, some of the other, lower priority characters can be tweaked on an as needed basis... But whatever you guys decide. 👆
hmm. would it perhaps be better, or easier initially, to maybe individually look through each tier and sub section then come up with a list of characters we each think might be a problem then compare lists? for example if we each look through low street on our own, and 4 of us see it as fine but one of us wants alfred moved to mid street, not sure that would be a priority. however if 3-4 of us or even 5 have the SAME name or names, then clearly that is someone who should be flagged and looked at MUCH more closely.my thought for a panel was to simply eliminate the egregious misrepresentations quickly. we don't have to get it perfect--we just need to make it better.
i will happily help out whatever form the process takes however if you guys want to work through it a different way.
Originally posted by Putinbot1As long as none of the others have a problem with you helping out, I'm all for it. 👆
I'd be interested Galan.
Ok, so the main thing is that this is a Vs Forum/Tourney tiers thread. What this means is that we don't rank them as they're in a comic book, but how they operate at their full capacity. This should serve as a guideline for our debates [so as not to make uneven threads], not how they stand in a storyline. So with that in mind, some of my proposals for Street level would be:
Batroc to move from Low Street to Mid Street. He is not two tiers below the top-level martial artists. Sure, he has his low showings, but there's also this stuff:
[Iron Fist]
https://imgur.com/uCoEJ9p
https://imgur.com/C2FWLja
[Cap]
https://imgur.com/YU3M37R
[Black Tarantula]
https://imgur.com/a/abI7a
[Bucky]
https://imgur.com/a/M4NLf
[Wolverine]
https://imgur.com/a/2gaAe
etc.
I think Black Widow should move from Low Street to Mid-Street.
[Elektra]
https://imgur.com/a/FrhZM
[Punisher]
https://imgur.com/a/NIY70
and again:
https://imgur.com/a/eQLE1
[Crossbones]:
https://imgur.com/a/vv57P
This, combined with her tech [gauntlets, guns] is a wrap.
I think Catwoman should move from Low-Street to Mid-Street.
[Talia al Ghul]
https://imgur.com/a/Rpwlnqw
[Wildcat]
https://imgur.com/a/egrI930
and again:
https://imgur.com/a/T3CiEh1
[Catman]
http://i.imgur.com/ygwmNnV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w5cJln4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7R9XQ0I.jpg
[Cheetah, PIS, but for the lol]
https://imgur.com/a/DlbWoVW
[Tim Drake]
http://i.imgur.com/Tlhmc0O.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Lx500S8.jpg
Equipment includes claws which are quite potent:
http://i.imgur.com/5V6OqQU.jpg
Steel-breaking whip:
http://i.imgur.com/2nxQiBz.jpg
And all sorts of 'thieves' stuff [i.e. cutting lasers]
I think Batman should move to low-meta. He's a walking armory, not that disimilar to Iron Man. If we'd have a street tourney, with the tiers as they are, Batman's regular gear includes:
Gas
Smoke grenades
Flashbangs
Grapnel Gun
Tasers [capable of affecting Superman]
Lasers
Electrical Batarangs [capable of taking down Solomon Grundy]
Acid Batarangs [affecting Emperor Penguin - who was Poison Ivy+Bane+Man-Bat serum all into one]
Liquid nitrogen capsules [freeze opponent]
Sonics
Heat Batarangs/gadgets
Tranquilizer darts
Magnetic batarangs/gadgets
Explosive batarangs/devices [defeats Captain Nazi, defeats Brick, outperforms JLA, destroy Doomsday clones]
Not to mention his costume's capabilities, which are ridiculous. He has the batcave in his cowl, basically, with every sort of spectral analysis you can think of. He has enhanced durability, electrical gauntlets etc. etc.
And he's currenty in the same tier as Daredevil.
The only way Batman is in the high-street tier, is if he's naked. This is not based on h2h martial arts.
Another one that is in a similar situation is Black Panther.
In short:
Batroc to mid street
Black Widow to mid street
Catwoman to mid-street
Batman to low-meta
Black Panther to low-meta
Good post 👆
Absolutely agreed about Batroc. The Leaper has also stalemated Classic Fantomex (he's fine afterwards, while Fantomex is about to face arrest or something, if memory serves):
The rest make sense, too. I was about to mention Widow's fight with the Punisher from the War Zone mini, but I see you included it already.
Selina might not be Shiva, but she's definitely not a low street, either.
Bats' recent fights with Slade are a nice example of how formidable his tech can be.
T'Challa got enhanced beyond the human limit more than once and is carrying lots of always-evolving tech, too.
Batroc to mid street
Black Widow to mid street
Catwoman to mid-street
Batman to low-meta
Black Panther to low-meta
I can see the logic behind these, but we should probably do something about low-street becoming a desert now that its top dogs are graduating.
I propose Two-Face and Kate Bishop (Hawkeye) for low-street.
Winter Soldier for High Street?
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm. would it perhaps be better, or easier initially, to maybe individually look through each tier and sub section then come up with a list of characters we each think might be a problem then compare lists? for example if we each look through low street on our own, and 4 of us see it as fine but one of us wants alfred moved to mid street, not sure that would be a priority. however if 3-4 of us or even 5 have the SAME name or names, then clearly that is someone who should be flagged and looked at MUCH more closely.my thought for a panel was to simply eliminate the egregious misrepresentations quickly. we don't have to get it perfect--we just need to make it better.
i will happily help out whatever form the process takes however if you guys want to work through it a different way.
Agreed....We could use a Google Doc, and add comments to each name we have issues with.
Leo and I already agree 👆
Agreed on the changes so far.
Not worried about the low street tier becoming deserted, tbh. There have been many characters that are not included yet. We could add Zsaz, Calendar Man etc if people wanted. But realistically, I see it like a bell curve..... We're not going to get tons of abstract/trans level characters, and neither would we have tons of low streets.
Add Jarvis. Seems criminal the second most famous butler in comics isn't there.
Should we move Rose Tattoo up? Always seemed weird that the Spirit of Death would be so low.....
Darksaint even goes shopping with Google Docs.
I didn't propose new characters to be added, because I think it was agreed that we first sort out the ones already there.
I agree with:
Two-Face to low-street [he's good h2h, but not that good, and doesn't have the gear to balance it out]
Kate Bishop (Hawkeye) for low-street
Winter Soldier to high street
That said:
Captain America to high-street.
Damien Wayne to mid-street [unless "Robin" included both him and Tim]
Barbara Gordon to mid-street
Renee Montoya [Question] to low street
i like phil's suggestions for the mid street tier as well. it should be pretty easy to add some people the lists later.
we def need to specify WHICH white tiger we're talking about in the tier as well. ava for example was able to bond with the tiger god. she wrecked the mighty avengers once and only monica was really able to put her down. even hector was beyond human in speed and strength. he fought spidey evenly for prolonged periods a couple different times. white tiger should certainly be moved up as well. hector should be in mid at least and ava as well. if she submits to the tiger she should be in the low meta tier probably (she whipped danny and power man at the same time, cut luke, tossed around she-hulk....)
the mid street tier looks relatively ok to me. putting daimian there would be solid. would you place drake in a different tier? i see todd is in high street but really they would both seem to straddle the mid/high street line and could likely fit in either without causing much ruckus. moon knight might be considered for high street. some of his equipment and meta abilities would seem to justify his moving up, depending on the version at least. again, not a huge discrepancy, but maybe someone to look at? like i said, i think overall the mid street isn't too bad imo.
high street names i'd consider looking at more closely would be: bane, bats and bp, clearly. bane and bp should jump a couple levels at least. i think we also need to stop seeing bats as purely street. cap too, tbh. low meta can easily be justified for both. rose i'm less sure about. i've only read a few of her appearances and while the idea of her seems awesome from what i've seen she doesn't seem to live up to the potential of her power set. ds, if you have some specific stuff that would elevate her i'd love to see it because like i said, i just don't know her all that well.
whew. maybe we can look at ADD names after we pick through some of the larger misrepresentations?
😂 i was going through some of the old pm's i have from when the tier thread was first being generated. some funny stuff that shows not much has changed in the forums.
quote:leonidas wrote on Apr 7th, 2007 04:48 PM:
laughing out loudthanks, bro. i washed my hands of that calamity though. the squabbling WITHIN the thread was manageable -- i expected it. but, the squabbling in other threads within the vs forums, and the constant -- "did you see where they put so-and-so -- how stupid are the guys making those lists??" really sort of . . . aggravated me. a lot.
ergo, i was anything BUT the level head needed to continue to guide that beast. honestly, ill. i've been here a while so i shouldn't be surprised but i am constantly AMAZED at just how ridiculous some people get if they feel their fave is getting slighted. at one point i wanted the addresses of redatom, batdude, tricksterpriest and nvr so i could set their homes on fire!! or maybe sick your ex on them!
i've pm'd val a time or 2 to express opinion on certain things, but i'm not gonna go through the hassle of listening to argument after argument cuz someone wants someone in mid-high tier and not low-high tier. what almost no one understood was that it was never MEANT as an 'absolute' gauge, but rather an approximate one. that's why i wanted LESS tiers, and not more.
alas, the fanboy element would not allow it . . .
even the tier names changed as we went along. lol
...But I still like the idea. And we can probably make it work, just in a different way. If I remake the thread, "officialize" it and pin it...then they can talk and debate all they want. But only I have edit powers, so if it gets unreasonable or b*tchy I can just ignore it and use my mod position to tell them to shut up and quit whining. It'll have a bit more structure.People will dislike that I don't update it every time they sneeze a new list, but I take crap regularly anyway....it's nothing new.
Anyway, I'll get around to it eventually. In the meantime, I'll let the thread devolve for a few more days before I'll probably have to close it....but I do like the concept, so hopefully we can get it to work eventually.
digi before he closed it. i have a couple pm's where he was losing his shit--like i was early on. everyone wanted a say, and everyone b!tched about placements. looking back at some of those pm's it's easy to see why digi closed it and i washed my hands of it. lol
When we get to the herald tier, it will be like entering the gates of hell.
I'd assume the White Tiger there would be Hector or Kasper, considering when the tiers are made.
The Bat-family are really hard to categorize, since even somebody like Tim has legitimately ridiculous gear available. I mostly went with my ranking of Dick > Jason > Tim > Damien and drew a tier line through the middle, but I can see a legitimate case to be made for the first 3 to all be high-street.
I think Cap/Bane [non-Venom] are too limited/vulnerable to move them up to low-meta, but I might be in the minority. Bane is too 'empty handed', while Cap is too unidimensional [and when his opponent catches/immobilizes the shield, he's basically just Bruce Wayne wrapped in the USA flag]. In a 'full capacity' circumstance, Nightwing would roflstomp Bane from a distance, imo, by continuing to spam shit like this:
http://i.imgur.com/sUZGTvi.jpg
or
https://imgur.com/a/ub71FHl
Not to mention high-voltage tasers [designed for Blockbuster], can blind people, can gas bomb them, tranq darts etc.
Tim's standard equipment is even crazier.
The Bat-family, man...
ok, cool. you'd know bane better than i would. with venom (the version i'd assume was ranked) he has some pretty crazy feats is what i was thinking. i see the reason you want cap to stay at high street, and really i'm fine either way since i think it's a very debatable point.
i guess that has been my gauge for this thing all along--if it's DEBATABLE that someone should be in a tier (like cap to low meta or high street) the 'error' is not, by definition, egregious and the character could stay without causing any significant issues or misrepresentations.
it think it's the ones that really CAN'T be debated (like i don't think it can be a debate that bp has to move out of street) that we really need to work on changing.
