My only real problem with Supes is the fact that he's the source for some of the biggest double standards in the comic forum. Need an example?
Wolverine's healing factor spent years building to a ridiculous level right? Now everyone but the fanboys acknowledged that the way his healing was being portrayed, and ignored the BS showings. But when Supes does something that jacks his power up a notch then it's all cool. I put Supes "Super Hand Rubbing" powers right up there with Wolverine healing from a nuke. I don't care if Supes has gotten more powerful over the years or not(after all Wolverine's healing factor also increased in power over the years, it's just plain stupid. And the fact that Supes is consistently portrayed as being at that level doesn't excuse that stupidity any more than Wolverine consistently being able to take on(and take shots from) guys like Hulk or Gladiator.
I understand that he's DC's flagship hero and will always be given insane and stupid feats to save the day, but consistently bad writing is still bad writing anyway you look at it and should be acknowledged as such.
Originally posted by darthgooberNope, Superman has one-shotted Despero with his HV.
I understand that he's DC's flagship hero and will always be given insane and stupid feats to save the day, but consistently bad writing is still bad writing anyway you look at it and should be acknowledged as such.
Originally posted by darthgoober
"Super Hand Rubbing"
what?
I understand that he's DC's flagship hero and will always be given insane and stupid feats to save the day, but consistently bad writing is still bad writing anyway you look at it and should be acknowledged as such.
Not everyone would consider it bad writing though...
Originally posted by pr1983
what?
Originally posted by pr1983
Not everyone would consider it bad writing though...
Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't remember the exact basis for the feat, but Supes rubbed his hands together super fast to fix a tear in Reality or something like that.
that sounds a bit iffy...
And not everyone considered Wolverine healing from a nuke bad writing either.
then they're idiots... 😬
After all, his healing factor HAD been portraid as being more and more uber over the years so why not?
simple. he doesnt regularly fly faster than the speed of light, or perform feats of strength that would make the hulk crap his pants etc... 😛
superman's powerset is such that, when combined with the other aspects of his character, suggests (and regularly shows) that he can do things other heroes just can't do...
/\ apologies for the shit grammar...
What was the last issue of Astonishing xmen to be released?
20 i think... about a month ago...
Originally posted by pr1983
that sounds a bit iffy...
Originally posted by pr1983
then they're idiots... 😬
Originally posted by pr1983
simple. he doesnt regularly fly faster than the speed of light, or perform feats of strength that would make the hulk crap his pants etc... 😛
Originally posted by pr1983
superman's powerset is such that, when combined with the other aspects of his character, suggests (and regularly shows) that he can do things other heroes just can't do.../\ apologies for the shit grammar...
And I don't have a problem with Supes doing things that are within his powerset, I have a problem with his powerset being enhanced every damn issue to whatever level is necessary to get the job done. By the same token, I have(or had) a problem with Wolverine's healing factor being written in such a way that it was always good enough to get him out of trouble no matter what that trouble was(nukes, Gladiator, etc.).
Originally posted by darthgoober
[B]Iffy my ass. It was stupid anyway you look at it.
i was referring to the way you'd described it... 😛
I agree.
good. 😉
No but he DOES have an uber healing factor that's allowed him to heal from all kinds of crazy shit. He's also Marvel's flagship character along with Spidey(just like Batman and Superman) and because of that is written to be capable of healing from something like a nuke to appease the fanboys, but does that change the fact that it's stupid beyond all belief?
in his case no, but he isnt built that way... marvel will still say that he only has the strength of a normal (intensively trained) man, or slightly above, and a better than average healing factor, and yet will write him completely ott... dc make no bones about superman, he's written (alot of the time) exactly how he's supposed to be, at least imo...
And I don't have a problem with Supes doing things that are within his powerset, I have a problem with his powerset being enhanced every damn issue to whatever level is necessary to get the job done.
every issue? c'mon, thats a bit much...
By the same token, I have(or had) a problem with Wolverine's healing factor being written in such a way that it was always good enough to get him out of trouble no matter what that trouble was(nukes, Gladiator, etc.).
me too...
Originally posted by darthgoober
Iffy my ass. It was stupid anyway you look at it.I agree.
No but he DOES have an uber healing factor that's allowed him to heal from all kinds of crazy shit. He's also Marvel's flagship character along with Spidey(just like Batman and Superman) and because of that is written to be capable of healing from something like a nuke to appease the fanboys, but does that change the fact that it's stupid beyond all belief?
And I don't have a problem with Supes doing things that are within his powerset, I have a problem with his powerset being enhanced every damn issue to whatever level is necessary to get the job done. By the same token, I have(or had) a problem with Wolverine's healing factor being written in such a way that it was always good enough to get him out of trouble no matter what that trouble was(nukes, Gladiator, etc.).
I agree with the notion that portrayals of characters are getting sloppy to gain a shock response on the chat forums through out the net. I mean its getting to the point where writers are forgetting what certain characters powers are in the first place. Take Zoom for example, the guy doesn't actually move fast, therefore his mass shouldn't actually increase due to momentum. Yet he's some how capable of the IMP punch all of a sudden. IMO, that type of writing is Blase.
I think Gaimain showed recently in the Eternals mini, how effective simple depictions of powers can still be. The scene where Makkari is preventing the bullets from hurting the embassy hostages is one of the best in recent memory, yet it didn't involve any frictional induced tears in reality, or a healing factor that allows a character to survive subatomic annihilation.
Originally posted by pr1983
i was referring to the way you'd described it... 😛
😎
Originally posted by pr1983
good. 😉
😎 (Again)
Originally posted by pr1983
in his case no, but he isnt built that way... marvel will still say that he only has the strength of a normal (intensively trained) man, or slightly above, and a better than average healing factor, and yet will write him completely ott... dc make no bones about superman, he's written (alot of the time) exactly how he's supposed to be, at least imo...
Marvel may say most of that most of the time, but for a while Wolverine's healing factor was considered to be pretty damn uber by the writers. But that level of healing was STILL ignored by pretty much everyone one the boards(including Supes fans who are more than willing to accept Supes being able to do ANYTHING) because everyone knew it was stupid. THAT'S the double standard I'm talking about. Supes is just about the only character that many consider to be immune to PIS/SMvF and stupid writing in general just because "he's Superman so it's ok for him to be able to do ANYTHING".
Originally posted by pr1983
every issue? c'mon, thats a bit much...
Juntai listed several issues(right in a row) where Supes did something off the charts in power. I consider that assessment to be pretty accurate.
Originally posted by -a-m-a-n again
I agree with the notion that portrayals of characters are getting sloppy to gain a shock response on the chat forums through out the net. I mean its getting to the point where writers are forgetting what certain characters powers are in the first place. Take Zoom for example, the guy doesn't actually move fast, therefore his mass shouldn't actually increase due to momentum. Yet he's some how capable of the IMP punch all of a sudden. IMO, that type of writing is Blase.I think Gaimain showed recently in the Eternals mini, how effective simple depictions of powers can still be. The scene where Makkari is preventing the bullets from hurting the embassy hostages is one of the best in recent memory, yet it didn't involve any frictional induced tears in reality, or a healing factor that allows a character to survive subatomic annihilation.
Originally posted by darthgoober
😎😎 (Again)
ok...
Marvel may say most of that most of the time, but for a while Wolverine's healing factor was considered to be pretty damn uber by the writers.
and yet marvel still paint him as the underdog, when he so clearly isn't...
But that level of healing was STILL ignored by pretty much everyone one the boards(including Supes fans who are more than willing to accept Supes being able to do ANYTHING) because everyone knew it was stupid. THAT'S the double standard I'm talking about. Supes is just about the only character that many consider to be immune to PIS/SMvF and stupid writing in general just because "he's Superman so it's ok for him to be able to do ANYTHING".
supes gets as much flak as anyone on this board, probably only logan gets more, and even that is a stretch... even the generally well within limits feats get picked apart in debates, hell, how many pages of the iceman versus superman thread was there? supes can't do anything (in that context), and to suggest he can is sheer lunacy, but he can do ALOT... the fact is, he is superman, he's written as a character that is supposed to do things other people can't... DC don't paint him as the underdog, and rightly so... case in point: during the 'up, up and away' arc, lex takes control of a kryptonian battleship that is superior to supes, and hits him with kryptonite beams, severely weakening him... he is saved by jimmy coming to his rescue, and a last ditch charge to pull luthor from the machine... now while some people (i'm not saying you in particular) might consider that crap writing (the whole resistance to kryptonite thing), i don't... i consider it to be superman doing what he does, putting the lives of others before his own, and pushing himself to the limit to get the job done... yes the writers take liberties, and yes it is wrong, but its not different than half the x-men stuff of the last ten years...
Juntai listed several issues(right in a row) where Supes did something off the charts in power. I consider that assessment to be pretty accurate.
any chance of those issue numbers and the feats? what does he mean by off the charts? in terms of strength? speed? what?
to be honest, ive read pretty much every supes comic in the last three or four years, and imo, showings of him doing outrageous stuff are in the minority, and in no way close to being the majority... most of the time he's just written as being superman, doing supermanesque things...
Originally posted by darthgoober
Tell me about it. I think Marvel and DC have realised just how many people frequent forums like this, so they're constantly trying to give their characters one issue powers just to put them over their counterparts on the boards, it's damn near as bad as the Pre Crisis era(especially Supes books). What happened to the good old days when the hero had to win through things like guts, determination, and teamwork as opposed to taking his established abilities to the next level. Lazy ass fan boy writers are killing some of comics best characters.
Thing is they definitely read the forums, I've even spoken to one of the current writers of Superman recently. I think half of them know what they are doing, but the others are really just appealing to short term fan boy kicks. There will be a lot of character with a bad case of power inflation, if writers are not careful. I blame Morrison, Ellis and Millar, as they are the ones who kind of introduced the cinematic, blockbuster, 'badass' moment into comics in the first place. At least they used to do it well. 🙂
Originally posted by pr1983
and yet marvel still paint him as the underdog, when he so clearly isn't...
Originally posted by pr1983
supes gets as much flak as anyone on this board, probably only logan gets more, and even that is a stretch... even the generally well within limits feats get picked apart in debates, hell, how many pages of the iceman versus superman thread was there? supes can't do anything (in that context), and to suggest he can is sheer lunacy, but he can do ALOT... the fact is, he is superman, he's written as a character that is supposed to do things other people can't... DC don't paint him as the underdog, and rightly so... case in point: during the 'up, up and away' arc, lex takes control of a kryptonian battleship that is superior to supes, and hits him with kryptonite beams, severely weakening him... he is saved by jimmy coming to his rescue, and a last ditch charge to pull luthor from the machine... now while some people (i'm not saying you in particular) might consider that crap writing (the whole resistance to kryptonite thing), i don't... i consider it to be superman doing what he does, putting the lives of others before his own, and pushing himself to the limit to get the job done... yes the writers take liberties, and yes it is wrong, but its not different than half the x-men stuff of the last ten years...
Originally posted by pr1983
any chance of those issue numbers and the feats? what does he mean by off the charts? in terms of strength? speed? what?to be honest, ive read pretty much every supes comic in the last three or four years, and imo, showings of him doing outrageous stuff are in the minority, and in no way close to being the majority... most of the time he's just written as being superman, doing supermanesque things...
Here's the post of Juntai's I was talking about...
Originally posted by Juntai
Yep, you don't read much Superman at all. Superman does amazing stuff almost week to week. There hasn't been one character to do anything as amazing as he since Crisis. It's not one time deals, that he suddenly gets an upgrade. In this last issue of S/B he dropped Despero, who's often written as a team wrecker. The issue before that, he was taking on half a dozen guys, including a GL, Powergirl, and others. The last issue of Action Comics, he survived the force of 50 supernovas, while his power was drained. The first arc of OYL since Crisis, had him battling against a planet devistating Kryptonian Warship. In The Next, he sealed an anomoly in space/time that was could to collapse everything into entropy. Seriously, try to find a character who's been more impressive in the last year.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm not talking about him as a character anymore than I'm talking about Supes as a character. I'm talking about the way that his healing factor was being portrayed at the time(which I see as being similar to the way Supes strength/speed/durability is being portrayed now). It was uber as Hell in the comics, but everyone was more than willing to chalk it up to bad writing.
and rightly so, because it wasnt the standard... bar the byrne run, superman more often than not has all those things... 99% of the time, superman has the uber strength/speed/durability... wolverine's healing depends on the writer half the time, while superman, whether he's being written by azzarello, verheiden, meltzer, morrison, busiek or johns for instance, he's still almost unratably strong and durable...
But the difference is that "Writers liberties" are ignored where most character's are concerned, and accepted for Supes.
see, i don't agree with that, and i think this is the main thing you and i don't agree about... superman (imo, as i've said), is more often than not written with a decent sense of consistency, in that he has uber strength, speed and durability, heat vision etc... i've gone into threads and seen superman fanboys make a mockery of the character, but i've seen perfectly rational people show and almost venomous disregard for feats simply because they're supermans, when the likes of thor, surfer or even wonder woman could easily do feats of their own on the same scale and have them accepted...
Supes can be written at outlandish levels and his fans don't bat an eyelid, their response is always more akin to "Finally, they're writing Supes the way he SHOULD be written".
again i don't agree... what do you mean by outlandish? the rubbing hands thing? it seems like an isolated incident...
I don't have a problem with Supes having something of a resistance to K-nite after all the times he's came into contact with it, I have a problem with the writers giving his fanboys ammo to say that it's all but useless when it's always been an important aspect of his character.
i agree...
And I don't have a problem with him being super fast, I have a problem with him being so damn fast he can heal time and space. Things like that would be looked down upon for ANY character other than Supes, which is the reason behind his being hated by so many.
i don't agree... if surfer or thor or martian manhunter or kyle rayner did this, nobody would challenge it, but because superman does it people are on his back about it... i actually feel, like, the exact opposite to what you do...
Here's the post of Juntai's I was talking about...
Originally posted by Juntai
Yep, you don't read much Superman at all. Superman does amazing stuff almost week to week. There hasn't been one character to do anything as amazing as he since Crisis. It's not one time deals, that he suddenly gets an upgrade. In this last issue of S/B he dropped Despero, who's often written as a team wrecker. The issue before that, he was taking on half a dozen guys, including a GL, Powergirl, and others.
that's all one arc, and sure, i'll admit that they've overdone supes a bit, but i've found that the superman & batman book tends to do that, so i just tend to disregard most of it, and i like verheiden as a writer...
The last issue of Action Comics, he survived the force of 50 supernovas, while his power was drained.
high level durability feat, but with a different writer in a completely different comic to the one above...
The first arc of OYL since Crisis, had him battling against a planet devistating Kryptonian Warship.
action comics yes, but a completely different arc... different writer too... and i liked it... i wouldnt consider it outlandish at all to be honest... cool, and high end, but within his abilities, like the huge explosion mentioned above...
In The Next, he sealed an anomoly in space/time that was could to collapse everything into entropy.
i didnt read that one... 😬
anyway, juntai's post seemed more in praise of superman, but those issues were in no way sequential... 😛
Originally posted by pr1983
and rightly so, because it wasnt the standard... bar the byrne run, superman more often than not has all those things... 99% of the time, superman has the uber strength/speed/durability... wolverine's healing depends on the writer half the time, while superman, whether he's being written by azzarello, verheiden, meltzer, morrison, busiek or johns for instance, he's still almost unratably strong and durable...
Originally posted by pr1983
see, i don't agree with that, and i think this is the main thing you and i don't agree about... superman (imo, as i've said), is more often than not written with a decent sense of consistency, in that he has uber strength, speed and durability, heat vision etc... i've gone into threads and seen superman fanboys make a mockery of the character, but i've seen perfectly rational people show and almost venomous disregard for feats simply because they're supermans, when the likes of thor, surfer or even wonder woman could easily do feats of their own on the same scale and have them accepted...
Originally posted by pr1983
again i don't agree... what do you mean by outlandish? the rubbing hands thing? it seems like an isolated incident...
Originally posted by pr1983
i agree...
Originally posted by pr1983
i don't agree... if surfer or thor or martian manhunter or kyle rayner did this, nobody would challenge it, but because superman does it people are on his back about it... i actually feel, like, the exact opposite to what you do...
Originally posted by pr1983
that's all one arc, and sure, i'll admit that they've overdone supes a bit, but i've found that the superman & batman book tends to do that, so i just tend to disregard most of it, and i like verheiden as a writer...
Originally posted by pr1983
high level durability feat, but with a different writer in a completely different comic to the one above...
Originally posted by pr1983
action comics yes, but a completely different arc... different writer too... and i liked it... i wouldnt consider it outlandish at all to be honest... cool, and high end, but within his abilities, like the huge explosion mentioned above...
Originally posted by pr1983
i didnt read that one... 😬
Originally posted by pr1983
anyway, juntai's post seemed more in praise of superman, but those issues were in no way sequential... 😛
Originally posted by darthgoober
But it was the standard for his healing factor at that particular time. Supes fans are always saying that they're not trying to limit themselves to his high end feats, but the way he's currently being portrayed. Well at the time Wolverine's healing factor was being portrayed as uber but that still wasn't being taken into consideration.I myself have never seen anyone discredit a feat of Supes that could be replicated by Thor or WW with strength. I'm willing to accept the majority of his strength feats(and to a lesser extent his durability feats) without much issue. Some of them like the Maggedon thing though...
Maggedon, just about anything involving T-Vo, heatvisioning the shit out of Despero, massive strength feats under a red sun or while exposed to massive amounts of K-nite, etc. There are quite a few that are pretty freakin stupid.
😎
The difference is that Surfer and Kyle are SUPPOSED to do that kind of thing. Supes being able to do it through sheer speed is just plain stupid. It's very similar to Marvel saying that Hulk is so strong that he can grab energy with his bare hands. It's just a random ability that he has "just because"(whether it makes sense or not) that you have to hear about in every one of his threads.
But you are the exception rather than the rule. I don't have a problem with Supes having ridicules feats as long as people are willing to behave like you and overlook them. My problem is that so many Supes fans aren't willing to do that for anyone BUT Supes.
It was under red sunlight, which should have had him damn near powerless. That spells BS in my mind.
I'm not saying that all Supes current feats are bogus(I don't know enough about this one to make the call). Just pointing out that DC is making his questionable feats more and more common to appease the fanboys.
But how legit does it SOUND to you. See these are the kinds of feats that you hear mentioned in EVERY freakin Supes thread.
But you see my point right?
Its okay for surfer and kyle to do it because they are suppose to?
Who do you think you are? You are the writters or the editors.
Just because some thing conflicts with your view of things should be, does not mean they are wrong because they are not.