Can you handle the Truth?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The theory that the universe is expanding from the point it started from (this means that it had a beginning because it is obeying the laws of cause and effect).

Are you talking about the socratic law of cause and effect, that is philosophy, not a scientific theory. It means nothing in science. The scientific concept of causality is something different (which originates from special relativity) and the Big Crunch does not conflict with it.

I understand what you think the problem is - that every effect need something to cause it, like the egg or chicken problem. This is not a physical problem, it is a philosophical thing. It is only wrong if you ASSUME Socrates causality to be true. Science is not concerned about answering this question. Like I said it is a philosophical thing.

Originally posted by AngryManatee
I never said that you said that there was only one theory. I only stated that information in order to indicate that it is not the only major theory out there, in case someone had chosen to point that out.

As for the "trick" question, there is no trick behind it. It just asks if you have an understanding of how the laws of physics are governed in a point of infinite mass and density. I have to answer to it, but I was wondering if you did since you seem to be asking so many probing questions about it towards the rest of us.

I ask so many probing questions to inspire you to think about what you believe, to challenge your belief system. You should know why you believe what you believe. If you cannot answer the why's and the what's of what you believe then why hold on to that belief system?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It only means that there was a time when all galaxies where together in one location. There may have been a singularity, but that could have lasted for eternity. No one can know.

But where did the galaxies come from?

😄

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Are you talking about the socratic law of cause and effect, that is philosophy, not a scientific theory. It means nothing in science. The scientific concept of causality is something different (which originates from special relativity) and the Big Crunch does not conflict with it.

I understand what you think the problem is - that every effect need something to cause it, like the egg or chicken problem. This is not a physical problem, it is a philosophical thing. It is only wrong if you ASSUME Socrates causality to be true. Science is not concerned about answering this question. Like I said it is a philosophical thing.

Newtonian law in essence states that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. It looks like Newton arrived at the same idea about cause and effect that Socrates propounded. Do you still think that this universal law is philosophical? Newton was more than just a (natural) philosopher. Newton was a mathematician, astronomer, physicist, and alchemist.

I don't necessarily ASSUME Socrates Law of Causality to be true, I know, can see, observe, prove, and can empirically test its veracity.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

Gravity is a force that operates in the universe. As a result, gravity is subject to time and thus it is not eternal.

God is a Spirit; therefore, He is not bound by the laws of physics. Thus God has no creator. In addition, God exists outside of time so He is not bound by the laws of cause and effect.

You either don't get my point, or you can't refute my argument...it's either one or the other.

MATTER AND ENERGY CANNOT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED

THEREFORE IT ALWAYS EXISTED....NO ONE CREATED IT

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
[B]MATTER AND ENERGY CANNOT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED*

*Technically, but such details aren't valid here as we're simpyl trying to get the basic concept across.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I ask so many probing questions to inspire you to think about what you believe, to challenge your belief system. You should know [B]why you believe what you believe. If you cannot answer the why's and the what's of what you believe then why hold on to that belief system? [/B]

I'm of the opinion that there aren't answers to everything. I don't try to explain the things I witness with a book just so I have an answer, because I choose to try and find out how something occurs/ happens/ works.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
You either don't get my point, or you can't refute my argument...it's either one or the other.

[b]MATTER AND ENERGY CANNOT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED

THEREFORE IT ALWAYS EXISTED....NO ONE CREATED IT [/B]

I do get your point, but you do not get mine. All laws in this universe are subject to God. He set these laws in motion but he reserves the power to rescind them abritrarily. I said all that to say this: the postulation that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed is false. All matter and energy was initially created because if they were not then that would imply that they were eternal. There is no evidence that matter and energy are eternal. Nothing in this material world is eternal, it all came from somewhere.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But where did the galaxies come from?

😄

They evolved from very small imperfections in the proto-universe.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I do get your point, but you do not get mine. All laws in this universe are subject to God.

I provided you with a FACT, and you provide me with a MYTH....thanks 😬

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I said all that to say this: the postulation that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed is false.

😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

OMG ahhahhahaaaaaaaaa omggg.....omg.....hahahaa....you are actually denying A SCIENTIFIC FACT !!!

ahahahahaahaaaa

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
All matter and energy was initially created because if they were not then that would imply that they were eternal. There is no evidence that matter and energy are eternal. Nothing in this material world is eternal, it all came from somewhere.

Matter and Energy cannot be created or Destroyed is the First Law of Physics...you cannot argue other scientific findings, and then deny another.

All states are temporary, but the material of which all is made of is eternal, simply because matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed.

I wish he would stop bringing newtonian/highschool/introductory physics into the discussion of the mechanics of the universe. Especially that kind of basic physics is not even used by astronomers and astrophysicists.

JesusIsAlive, I find you incredibly, INCREDIBLY hypocritical.

You say you are a Christian... yeah. We've got that part.

But Christians are supposed to have faith in what they belief, and not search endlessly on for the answers. I mean, it's good to think about things, but when you get to the point where you try to PROVE your religion, aren't you starting to go against what FAITH is all about in the first place?

FAITH is believing in something without scientific fact or proof, but knowning that it's there all the same. Yet you continually must find FACT to back up your FAITH. In fact, you tell us WHY all the facts that we know back up your faith, and only YOUR faith.

"THE TRUTH"- (as you've so aptly titled yet another one of your threads which ultimately say the same thing) God is a mystery - one so complex and not understandable that I don't even WANT to start using facts to back up faith, I am perfectly content being a Christian with questions that I can try to solve but know I will never know the concrete answers to, and also being someone who believes that science is applicable in daily life. Maybe God set into motion evolution.... ooooohh.

So you wonder why people on this board get just the teeniest bit annoyed with you? Let me tell you something. It's not because you're an avenging angel, here to save our damned souls, and we are realizing that our lives are worthless... blah de blah de blah.... accept Jesus... blah de blah... It's because, frankly you're insulting the notion that critical thinking and religion can go hand in hand.

I believe that JIA's assertion that "matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed" is untrue is based on the fact that God created the laws of physics and thus can bend or break those rules as He sees fit.

Originally posted by FeceMan
I believe that JIA's assertion that "matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed" is untrue is based on the fact that God created the laws of physics and thus can bend or break those rules as He sees fit.

Then he should prove that scientifically. 😛

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Newtonian law in essence states that [B]every action has an equal and opposite reaction. It looks like Newton arrived at the same idea about cause and effect that Socrates propounded. Do you still think that this universal law is philosophical? Newton was more than just a (natural) philosopher. Newton was a mathematician, astronomer, physicist, and alchemist.

I don't necessarily ASSUME Socrates Law of Causality to be true, I know, can see, observe, prove, and can empirically test its veracity. [/B]

Newtonian physics, or classical mechanics is not universally valid. Classical mechanics is just a particular case of relativity. Quantum mechanics is also another type of mechanics which works differently than newtonian physics. Newtonian physics is just an aproximation, it doesn´t dictates what really happens.

There is always new things and concepts being discovered. Things that we thought that worked in a way, were discovered to be wrong later. People thought that time was linear but it was not, even the law of energy conservation does not work in every case(like for very short periods of time). Thats why we can´t use socrates causality to exclude the possibility of the Big Crunch. If the possibility could be eliminated by that reason, scientists would have already done that.

There are other things that can lead scientists to believe that the Big Crunch is untrue but none of then are certain and none of then include causality. For scientists the Big Crunch is still a possibility.

Originally posted by FeceMan
I believe that JIA's assertion that "matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed" is untrue is based on the fact that God created the laws of physics and thus can bend or break those rules as He sees fit.

Another one denying scientific fact...

If Matter and Energy cannot be Created or Destroyed which is scientific Law/Fact, then that means either one of two things:

1) God did not create matter or energy, since matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only change...therefore there is no creator, and no God...

or

2) God is Matter and Energy....God is this Universe, and everything in it....that is why he/she/it is eternal and real.

You can't have it both ways Feceman....either Matter and Energy was never created (as accordance to scientific fact), or God created it (as accordance to religious myth)

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Another one denying scientific fact...

If [b]Matter and Energy cannot be Created or Destroyed which is scientific Law/Fact, then that means either one of two things:

1) God did not create matter or energy, since matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only change...therefore there is no creator, and no God...

or

2) God is Matter and Energy....God is this Universe, and everything in it....that is why he/she/it is eternal and real.

You can't have it both ways Feceman....either Matter and Energy was never created (as accordance to scientific fact), or God created it (as accordance to religious myth) [/B]

I vote for #2. 😎

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I vote for #2. 😎

As I knew you would 😉

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
As I knew you would 😉

😛

I like your post Kali, but a question comes to mind.

Spoiler:
Can you prove energy can't be created or destroyed?