Can you handle the Truth?

Started by JesusIsAlive432 pages

Originally posted by AngryManatee
Evidence for fusing of two ancestral chromosomes to create human chromosome 2 and where there has been no fusion in other Great Apes is:

1) The analogous chromosomes (2p and 2q) in the non-human great apes can be shown, when laid end to end, to create an identical banding structure to the human chromosome 2. (1)

2) The remains of the sequence that the chromosome has on its ends (the telomere) is found in the middle of human chromosome 2 where the ancestral chromosomes fused. (2)

3) the detail of this region (pre-telomeric sequence, telomeric sequence, reversed telomeric sequence, pre-telomeric sequence) is exactly what we would expect from a fusion. (3)

4) this telomeric region is exactly where one would expect to find it if a fusion had occurred in the middle of human chromosome 2.

5) the centromere of human chromosome 2 lines up with the chimp chromosome 2p chromosomal centromere.

6) At the place where we would expect it on the human chromosome we find the remnants of the chimp 2q centromere (4).

Not only is this strong evidence for a fusion event, but it is also strong evidence for common ancestry.

Not really. This is strong evidence of bias and preconceived ideas (i.e. that evolution has occurred in the first place) and a failure to take into account that perhaps the human chromosome was already in its current state relative to humans.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Not really. This is strong evidence of bias and preconceived ideas (i.e. that evolution has occurred in the first place) and a failure to take into account that perhaps the human chromosome was already in its current state relative to humans.

Originally posted by AngryManatee

So then the uncanny resemblence between those fused chromosomes and the chimp chromosomes is just pure coincidence?

Edit: I noticed the article you posted doesn't even mention the similarites with chimp chromosomes. Sounds like biased journalism to me.

So now you're trying to take a different approach to that post? You already fell flat on your face once. Do you have an alternative explanation that can be tested?

Nice contradictions "Lord Knightfa11"

Evolution is a religion.
Evolution is a scientific theory
Evolution happened “billions of years ago”
Evolution happens over millions of years
I study science
I’m a scientist

Knowing the origin of the universe is not important
Earth would be spinning to fast to support life
documented scientific evidence that humans and dinosaurs co-existed

Some nice quotes "Lord Knightfa11"

“obviously because not all "religious people" are scientists or even skilled with logic, whereas the supporters of evolution are either educated in the ways of the tongue or unable to think for themselves.”

“uh-huh, and if anyone who decides to question evolution is thrown out of their jobs, then who is testing it?”

“what, the fact that life started "billions of years ago" yet nasa states that 100,000 years ago the earth wasn't capable of sustaining life?”

“well if you weren't so busy crying over a one word mistake you might have seen my logic.”

It seems that you make a whole lot of one word mistakes. Well I was board so I decided to chew up some time, ta-ta for now. 😄

Evidence for fusing of two ancestral chromosomes to create human chromosome 2 and where there has been no fusion in other Great Apes is:

1) The analogous chromosomes (2p and 2q) in the non-human great apes can be shown,

Evidence for fusing of two ancestral chromosomes to create human chromosome 2 and where there has been no fusion in other Great Apes is: when laid end to end, to create an identical banding structure to the human chromosome.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

this microbiology read and learn.

now just so you are aware there is now undeniable evidence of chromosome mutation and an added chromosome in humans. Q.E.D. down syndrome.

so it is possible for chromosome changes.
craw-son

bye the bye anyone want to open another thread and let this one die?

No it's not true! Ignore the fact that I have not a single decent hypothesis that also explains it!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
Evidence for fusing of two ancestral chromosomes to create human chromosome 2 and where there has been no fusion in other Great Apes is:

1) The analogous chromosomes (2p and 2q) in the non-human great apes can be shown,

Evidence for fusing of two ancestral chromosomes to create human chromosome 2 and where there has been no fusion in other Great Apes is:[B] when laid end to end, to create an identical banding structure to the human chromosome.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

this microbiology read and learn.

now just so you are aware there is now undeniable evidence of chromosome mutation and an added chromosome in humans. Q.E.D. down syndrome.

so it is possible for chromosome changes.
craw-son

bye the bye anyone want to open another thread and let this one die? [/B]

That is still not evidence that apes are ancestors of humans. Sorry, but these are the facts. You see, you must first prove (factually) that evolution is possible (let alone that it has occurred). Second, you must prove--not preconceive--that the fused chromosome in human DNA did not come from the factory that way.

Good luck.

what evidence do you have to even believe jesus existed or that his message was even remotely what is being said today..
what about his comment that heaven is inside of you and everything in creation under a rock and in it?

how about that he said there is no need of churches that you can pray to god in the privacy of your own room and have no need of mediators.

what about the biblical claim of creation of two humans in paradise his first and only creation yet in the next page there already is another civilization outside of eden that caine leaves to with his wife/sister?
twisted1

bye the bye, i actually studied theology, religion of the world and cultural awareness and have traveled to the middle east. oh yeah i was taught in a catholic school.. Q.E.D. religion is a sham.

tell me JIA what credentials do you have about your religion?

Originally posted by AngryManatee
So now you're trying to take a different approach to that post? You already fell flat on your face once. Do you have an alternative explanation that can be tested?

Different approach? Hold on...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Where is the proof that the fusion occurred? How do you know that the fusion was not already there initially?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But you are presupposing that evolution occurred without proving it first and establishing it as a fact. You have the cart before the horse. First prove that evolution occurred then substantiate that the fusion was not already preexistent in human DNA.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You still have the cart before the horse. You are still presupposing that evolutionary process has occurred without first establishing (i.e. proving) it. Second, you are assuming that fusion has occurred in human DNA without substantiating that it was not already fused (originally). Hence, your points are useless.

http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1392

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
What uncanny resemblance? To you something similar might appear as uncanny but not to me.

How am I trying to explain matters of faith scientifically? I stand flat-footed and sure, and say without one iota of doubt that I know in Whom I have believed. I have not deviated nor retreated from my original stance on anything.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
They don't mention them (perhaps) because they do not presuppose that evolutionary process has occurred. They don't start with that premise as do the evolutionist proponent. Besides, similarites are irrelevant. Just because one box of cereal looks like another box of cereal that does not mean that they have the same manufacturer. There are such things as generic brands that look and almost taste like the original.

Nope, there appears to be striking continuity and consistency in my approach. Don't think I've changed one thing except a few terms or phraseologies, but the gist is still the same:

First: prove that evolution has occurred (in terms of originating all life on this planet).

Second: prove that chromosome 2 was not created fused by God Almighty.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Different approach? Hold on...

Nope, there appears to be striking continuity and consistency in my approach. Don't think I've changed one thing except a few terms or phraseologies, but the gist is still the same:

First: prove that evolution has occurred (in terms of originating all life on this planet).

Second: prove that chromosome 2 was not created fused by God Almighty.

More continuity:

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
That is still not evidence that apes are ancestors of humans. Sorry, but these are the facts. You see, you must first prove (factually) that evolution is possible (let alone that it has occurred). Second, you must prove--not preconceive--that the fused chromosome in human DNA did not come from the factory that way.

Good luck.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
what evidence do you have to even believe jesus existed or that his message was even remotely what is being said today..
what about his comment that heaven is inside of you and everything in creation under a rock and in it?

how about that he said there is no need of churches that you can pray to god in the privacy of your own room and have no need of mediators.

what about the biblical claim of creation of two humans in paradise his first and only creation yet in the next page there already is another civilization outside of eden that caine leaves to with his wife/sister?
twisted1

bye the bye, i actually studied theology, religion of the world and cultural awareness and have traveled to the middle east. oh yeah i was taught in a catholic school.. Q.E.D. religion is a sham.

tell me JIA what credentials do you have about your religion?

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
what evidence do you have to even believe jesus existed or that his message was even remotely what is being said today..
what about his comment that heaven is inside of you and everything in creation under a rock and in it?

The watch analogy, the first and second law of thermodynamics, The “you cannot get order from an explosion” argument. No really, I have about as much evidence that Jesus existed as you do that George Washington existed. Question: how do you know that Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492, because that is what you were taught?

how about that he said there is no need of churches that you can pray to god in the privacy of your own room and have no need of mediators. [/B]

I cannot explain spiritual things to an unspiritual person. There is a spiritual disconnect. In order to understand the things of God you must be born again.

what about the biblical claim of creation of two humans in paradise his first and only creation yet in the next page there already is another civilization outside of eden that caine leaves to with his wife/sister? [/B]

twisted1

Same explanation as above. What the Bible does not reveal is how much time elapsed from the time Cain left Eden and the time he became married. It could have been hundreds of years. People lived longer back then because sin’s effect had not become as pronounced as it is today.

bye the bye, i actually studied theology, religion of the world and cultural awareness and have traveled to the middle east. oh yeah i was taught in a catholic school.. Q.E.D. religion is a sham. [/B]

And? I am impressed but not intimidated.

tell me JIA what credentials do you have about your religion? [/B]

My credentials are neither relevant nor irrelevant. What matters is that you are perhaps impressed by my understanding and intelligence which is what inspired you to ask such a question, no?

My credentials are neither relevant nor irrelevant. What matters is that you are perhaps impressed by my understanding and intelligence which is what inspired you to ask such a question, no? [/B][/QUOTE]

no, i am astounded by your ignorance and lack of understanding in both science and religion, although i must say: i do admire your stubbornness. you have no evidence for your response that i posted other then a personal assumption and a possibility that god "may have" or that "time could have" bn.

the difference between every ones statements and yours is that it is more then likely with the evidence at hand and current thinking that more then likely it is an extreme certainty.

you neither have any evidence or a supporting statement remotely mentioning your scenario or possibility from your own religion. which leads me to believe you are not following one of the first tenements of your religion it "simply is" by faith and by act of god, but of course you just tried to rationalize my initial question.

now i would like to question your arrogance and lack of humility, which unlike you, i am allowed to do. i follow no certain moral or religious believe system. having said that can you explain the use of color fonds to separate yourself and stand out from the rest of.

to me i see nothing but a person standing on the corner of a crowded street preaching praying in front of ppl glorifying himself, something jesus said you would be rewarded by ppl because you have bn acknowledge by them... also that was not a positive indorsement by jesus what so ever in case you misconstrued my intend.

there is no humble or humility what so ever in your response or even any effort to understand what has been mentioned. you are like a blind man leading the blind. i think you have single handedly pushed more ppl away from the possible believe of god then gained a single person due to your arrogance of your believes and qoutes. i am sure i am not the first person to mention this to you on this sight.

the whole chromosome debate i will try to explain it very simply to you. imagine two sticks both have a set pattern that no other chromosome from the animal kingdom can match like finger prints.. although their are other animals with two similar sticks they have a vastly different line pattern that dont come close to matching..now a scientist says hey these apes look like us i bet if we check there d.n.a they will be exremely similar. another guy shows up and says i have a theory that says that if we are related to them not only is our d.n.a almost identical but i will do one better that his chromosome and ours are the same ones but stuck together. lets check it, both chromosomes of ape and man have the exact same design except that the mans chromosome is one longer piece but if we cut it in have it looks exactly the same... poof like magic proof to the scientific theory nothing more to explain...

now if you are going to respond to this JIA i would like a thoroughly thought out response and not an asinine comment please.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
What are these facts?

"Bears eat beets, fact. Bears beat Battlestar Galactic, fact."

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I'm waiting on him telling me the facts that prove evolution...I don't mean to be pedantic but there are so many people around here who are tarting on about how evolution is true when they don't even know what it is...

Digi could explain evolution...can Shaky?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f80/t418462.html

Please read the articles that I have posted on this thread. I am tired of posting the answer to this question. I have done it far too many times.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
troll. Don't start a debate and say you have nothing to prove. Don't tell me to go to school and learn when i posted mathematics and you asked me to explain them to you in kindergarten terms.

I didn’t start anything; I finished it.

School is a good thing. Do you have a degree?

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Nice rebuttal. "your science is laughable" how about the fact that your science "isn't laughable" as is implied, and yet you can't even defend it.

But your “science” was laughable. I didn’t claim to be a scientist like you did. I’m a songwriter, singer and guitar player, and even I can tell that you have an incomplete picture, and that is where I got the idea that you should go to school.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I have seen debaters like you before, and I can't stand them. People who, instead of providing a logical point, say "no it isn't".
uh-huh. You are pretty dumb geographically. I'm sorry. And you are a troll. incas=mexico/south america, chinese/hebrews=asia.

I was simply giving you back what you were giving out at the time. Go back and read what you posted.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Uh-huh, as i expected. As this has yet to happen, this is not "proof", since you cannot prove what has not happened yet. Dumbass troll.

Reported

ppl so angry i say close this thread and go to the science religion one it is better
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f80/t500581.html

this is from ad pittman

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
My credentials are neither relevant nor irrelevant. What matters is that you are perhaps impressed by my understanding and intelligence which is what inspired you to ask such a question, no?

no, i am astounded by your ignorance and lack of understanding in both science and religion, although i must say: i do admire your stubbornness. you have no evidence for your response that i posted other then a personal assumption and a possibility that god "may have" or that "time could have" bn.

the difference between every ones statements and yours is that it is more then likely with the evidence at hand and current thinking that more then likely it is an extreme certainty.

you neither have any evidence or a supporting statement remotely mentioning your scenario or possibility from your own religion. which leads me to believe you are not following one of the first tenements of your religion it "simply is" by faith and by act of god, but of course you just tried to rationalize my initial question.

now i would like to question your arrogance and lack of humility, which unlike you, i am allowed to do. i follow no certain moral or religious believe system. having said that can you explain the use of color fonds to separate yourself and stand out from the rest of.

to me i see nothing but a person standing on the corner of a crowded street preaching praying in front of ppl glorifying himself, something jesus said you would be rewarded by ppl because you have bn acknowledge by them... also that was not a positive indorsement by jesus what so ever in case you misconstrued my intend.

there is no humble or humility what so ever in your response or even any effort to understand what has been mentioned. you are like a blind man leading the blind. i think you have single handedly pushed more ppl away from the possible believe of god then gained a single person due to your arrogance of your believes and qoutes. i am sure i am not the first person to mention this to you on this sight.

the whole chromosome debate i will try to explain it very simply to you. imagine two sticks both have a set pattern that no other chromosome from the animal kingdom can match like finger prints.. although their are other animals with two similar sticks they have a vastly different line pattern that dont come close to matching..now a scientist says hey these apes look like us i bet if we check there d.n.a they will be exremely similar. another guy shows up and says i have a theory that says that if we are related to them not only is our d.n.a almost identical but i will do one better that his chromosome and ours are the same ones but stuck together. lets check it, both chromosomes of ape and man have the exact same design except that the mans chromosome is one longer piece but if we cut it in have it looks exactly the same... poof like magic proof to the scientific theory nothing more to explain...

now if you are going to respond to this JIA i would like a thoroughly thought out response and not an asinine comment please. [/B][/QUOTE]

no, i am astounded by your ignorance and lack of understanding in both science and religion, although i must say: i do admire your stubbornness. you have no evidence for your response that i posted other then a personal assumption and a possibility that god "may have" or that "time could have" bn.

Ignorance? Stubborness?

And you do have evidence (i.e. of evolution’s occurrence and that chromosome 2 was not already fused)?

the difference between every ones statements and yours is that it is more then likely with the evidence at hand and current thinking that more then likely it is an extreme certainty.

More than likely and extreme certainty are not synonymous; it either is or ain’t.

you neither have any evidence or a supporting statement remotely mentioning your scenario or possibility from your own religion. which leads me to believe you are not following one of the first tenements of your religion it "simply is" by faith and by act of god, but of course you just tried to rationalize my initial question.

Don’t know what you mean here.

now i would like to question your arrogance and lack of humility, which unlike you, i am allowed to do. i follow no certain moral or religious believe system. having said that can you explain the use of color fonds to separate yourself and stand out from the rest of.

Arrogance?

I will not explain anything (I don’t have to nor is it germane to this topic). That is your characterization of my intention not mine.

to me i see nothing but a person standing on the corner of a crowded street preaching praying in front of ppl glorifying himself, something jesus said you would be rewarded by ppl because you have bn acknowledge by them... also that was not a positive indorsement by jesus what so ever in case you misconstrued my intend.

Glorifying myself? How? By making bold statements and making challenges for you that you cannot prove, substantiate, nor support? Does this make you look bad? It is what it is. The burden of proof is on you—the atheist/evolutionist to prove that your theory is possible.

there is no humble or humility what so ever in your response or even any effort to understand what has been mentioned. you are like a blind man leading the blind. i think you have single handedly pushed more ppl away from the possible believe of god then gained a single person due to your arrogance of your believes and qoutes. i am sure i am not the first person to mention this to you on this sight.

No, really, everything that I wrote is what I intended to write but at the same time challenge your own thinking in the process. But I apologize if this stepped on your toes (that is never my intent).

the whole chromosome debate i will try to explain it very simply to you. imagine two sticks both have a set pattern that no other chromosome from the animal kingdom can match like finger prints.. although their are other animals with two similar sticks they have a vastly different line pattern that dont come close to matching..now a scientist says hey these apes look like us i bet if we check there d.n.a they will be exremely similar. another guy shows up and says i have a theory that says that if we are related to them not only is our d.n.a almost identical but i will do one better that his chromosome and ours are the same ones but stuck together. lets check it, both chromosomes of ape and man have the exact same design except that the mans chromosome is one longer piece but if we cut it in have it looks exactly the same... poof like magic proof to the scientific theory nothing more to explain...

I already understand the process, but I refuse to give credence to the findings being proof of a common ancestor. How can I do this when evolution has yet to be proven? How can I do this when there is no proof that chromosome 2 was not already fused? Give me some credit. Similar chromosomal characteristics are not proof that evolution has occurred period. (See http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1392)

now if you are going to respond to this JIA i would like a thoroughly thought out response and not an asinine comment please. [/B]

I hope that this response was thorough enough.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
ppl so angry i say close this thread and go to the science religion one it is better
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f80/t500581.html

this is from ad pittman

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

My point precisely. That is why I said that you cannot explain spiritual things i.e. the things of God or the Word of God to an unspiritual person who has not been born again. Only God can give the illuminatinon needed to understand spiritual things.

bye the bye, i am not an atheist so you can stop calling me and other
ppl who believe in evolution that. seeing as religious text dont have anything to say on the subject of modern science or a detail explanation of our creation just cliff notes. there is no denial of evolution in the divine method by the unknowable entity and its many scriptures.

alien2

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
bye the bye, i am not an atheist so you can stop calling me and other
ppl who believe in evolution that. seeing as religious text dont have anything to say on the subject of modern science or a detail explanation of our creation just cliff notes. there is no denial of evolution in the divine method by the unknowable entity and its many scriptures.

alien2

Sure there is. God nowhere in the pages of Scripture utilized evolutionary process (check Genesis for yourself). There isn't anything about common ancestry among organisms in the Bible. But there is a ton about things reproducing according to their kind.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
My point precisely. That is why I said that you cannot explain spiritual things i.e. the things of God or the Word of God to an unspiritual person who has not been born again. Only God can give the illuminatinon needed to understand spiritual things.

That is correct, you cannot prove imaginary things. Also, you do not have a special connection to some mysterious truth. That is simply your ego talking.