Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You seem to run away, when confronted with facts. 🙄
Do you equate not responding (because I haven't had the opportunity to because of my responsibilities outside of this great forum) with running?
What facts Shakyamunison? I am still waiting for those facts that support the belief that humans are animals. Humans are not apes (read all of my posts to Pittman on this discussion, they are in this thread, several posts back).
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveAll of the items that you have mentioned are not organic or self sustaining. Planets are formed by gravity and any random particles or gases that get caught in the gravitational pull of a larger object. Planets are complex things and fall into a perfect example of something that is randomly created and complex. However you believe that man didn't evolve from a single cell organism so I can understand why you have a problem with this and why your logic fails you but if you can believe that something that is not complex like a single cell can be created with the right set of conditions this in not a leap in logic.
Here is my point: computers, tvs, airplanes, cars, guns, dvd players, watches, aircraft carriers, helicopters, mircrochips, computer programs, etc. [b]are all complex. Nevertheless, not one of the examples that I have provided (or that you have submitted) have come about by random, chance occurrence. There was a designer in every one of the instances that I cited. Yet, you believe that matter, cells, gases, chemicals, natural laws, (highly complex) organisms, etc., did not have a designer. This thinking is the epitome of foolishness. How can the former examples have an intelligent designer, but the latter examples be a product of random, chance occurrence?Seriously, does this make any logical, rational sense to you AngryManatee? [/B]
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveWhich you have failed to prove that they are not, just as in your mind I have failed to prove that to you. 😉
Do you equate not responding (because I haven't had the opportunity to because of my responsibilities outside of this great forum) with running?What facts Shakyamunison? I am still waiting for those facts that support the belief that humans are animals. Humans are not apes (read all of my posts to Pittman on this discussion, they are in this thread, several posts back).
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Here is my point: computers, tvs, airplanes, cars, guns, dvd players, watches, aircraft carriers, helicopters, mircrochips, computer programs, etc. [b]are all complex. Nevertheless, not one of the examples that I have provided (or that you have submitted) have come about by random, chance occurrence. There was a designer in every one of the instances that I cited. Yet, you believe that matter, cells, gases, chemicals, natural laws, (highly complex) organisms, etc., did not have a designer. This thinking is the epitome of foolishness. How can the former examples have an intelligent designer, but the latter examples be a product of random, chance occurrence?Seriously, does this make any logical, rational sense to you AngryManatee? [/B]
{examples have been cited of complelely random occurances without a creator if ud only read}
how the former examples have an intelligent designer, but god himself{as understood by u} be a product of random chance occurance?
if all complex things need to have a creator {or so ur argument goes} then who created god?
seriously, does this make any sense to u JIA?
Originally posted by ThePittman
All of the items that you have mentioned are not organic or self sustaining. Planets are formed by gravity and any random particles or gases that get caught in the gravitational pull of a larger object. Planets are complex things and fall into a perfect example of something that is randomly created and complex. However you believe that man didn't evolve from a single cell organism so I can understand why you have a problem with this and why your logic fails you but if you can believe that something that is not complex like a single cell can be created with the right set of conditions this in not a leap in logic.
You have missed the point; I am not dealing with the organic, self-sustaining aspect of the things that I have mentioned. I bring them up to illustrate the fact that every one of them had a designer, yet the latter examples are way more complex and you believe that they did not have an intelligent designer (this is extremely irrational, illogical, and contradictory thinking).
You worded that last statement confusingly. A single cell is complex, and not it cannot, and has not been created by the most erudite, educated, scholarly, informed scientist--yet you believe that it came about by random, chance occurrence. If the most learned and intelligent scientists cannot create a cell or life what makes you irrationally believe that random, chance occurence (all by itself with no intelligent designer) could have created all living organisms?
Can't you see the irrationality in that mode of thinking ThePittman?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Here is my point: computers, tvs, airplanes, cars, guns, dvd players, watches, aircraft carriers, helicopters, mircrochips, computer programs, etc. [b]are all complex. Nevertheless, not one of the examples that I have provided (or that you have submitted) have come about by random, chance occurrence. There was a designer in every one of the instances that I cited. Yet, you believe that matter, cells, gases, chemicals, natural laws, (highly complex) organisms, etc., did not have a designer. This thinking is the epitome of foolishness. How can the former examples have an intelligent designer, but the latter examples be a product of random, chance occurrence?Seriously, does this make any logical, rational sense to you AngryManatee? [/B]
Well seeing as how the example I cited has shown to be able to self-assemble, yes, it does have logic behind it. Good try with the watchmaker analogy though.
Edit: And by self assembly, I mean at an atomic level, based on the attraction of different atoms and molecules.
Edit: Not to mention, RNA fragments have been shown to self-assemble in early earth conditions as well.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
{examples have been cited of complelely random occurances without a creator if ud only read}how the former examples have an intelligent designer, but god himself{as understood by u} be a product of random chance occurance?
if all complex things need to have a creator {or so ur argument goes} then who created god?seriously, does this make any sense to u JIA?
You are the umpteenth person to ask me who created God leonheartmm, but I have already explained to you that outside of this space-time continuum the law of cause and effect does not apply (in terms of God needing a Creator). You see God is in another dimension which is not governed by time, space, matter, the fundamental forces of nature, the laws of thermodynamics, etc. He governs and is the Maker of all natural laws. All matter requires a creator because it is governed by the laws of physics (being constituents of this three-dimensional universe). But God is a Spirit. Spirits are not subject to the laws of physics. Spirits are not bound by time (which governs the law of cause and effect as it relates to matter and space). Therefore, God has always existed because there is no time in the dimension where He lives (or occupies). Therefore He does not require a beginning (remember there is no time where God is). Time is part of the space-time continuum here in this universe which is composed of matter. But God exists in world not composed of physical matter; therefore, He is not bound by or subject to natural laws. This is why although God is the epitome of complexity and intelligence, He does not require a creator. Only things that are part of this scheme that we call reality or life require a creator (based on those reasons that I have furnished).
Do you understand this leonheartmm?
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveNo I haven't missed your point because you point that you are trying to make it invalid and trying to compare apples to a brick. Is it illogical to think that God didn't have a creator with what you have stated? You say that everything that is complex must have a creator but God doesn't fit into this because he is God, now that is illogical and come up with this nice little "mystical" reason why.
You have missed the point; I am not dealing with the organic, self-sustaining aspect of the things that I have mentioned. I bring them up to illustrate the fact that every one of them had a designer, yet the latter examples are way more complex and you believe that they did not have an intelligent designer (this is extremely irrational, illogical, and contradictory thinking).You worded that last statement confusingly. A single cell is complex, and not it cannot, and has not been created by the most erudite, educated, scholarly, informed scientist--yet you believe that it came about by random, chance occurrence. If the most learned and intelligent scientists cannot create a cell or life what makes you irrationally believe that random, chance occurence (all by itself with no intelligent designer) could have created all living organisms?
Can't you see the irrationality in that mode of thinking ThePittman?
Originally posted by ThePittman
No I haven't missed your point because you point that you are trying to make it invalid and trying to compare apples to a brick. Is it illogical to think that God didn't have a creator with what you have stated? You say that everything that is complex must have a creator but God doesn't fit into this because he is God, now that is illogical and come up with this nice little "mystical" reason why.
I don't recall ever saying that God does not require a creator because He is God, those were your words.
Furthermore, there is nothing mystical about why God does not require a creator.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You are the umpteenth person to ask me who created God leonheartmm, but I have already explained to you that outside of this space-time continuum the law of cause and effect does not apply (in terms of God needing a Creator). You see God is in another dimension which is not governed by time, space, matter, the fundamental forces of nature, the laws of thermodynamics, etc. He governs and is the Maker of all natural laws. All matter requires a creator because it is governed by the laws of physics (being constituents of this three-dimensional universe). But God is a Spirit. Spirits are not subject to the laws of physics. Spirits are not bound by time (which governs the law of cause and effect as it relates to matter and space). Therefore, God has [b]always existed because there is no time in the dimension where He lives (or occupies). Therefore He does not require a beginning (remember there is no time where God is). Time is part of the space-time continuum here in this universe which is composed of matter. But God exists in world not composed of physical matter; therefore, He is not bound by or subject to natural laws. This is why although God is the epitome of complexity and intelligence, He does not require a creator. Only things that are part of this scheme that we call reality or life require a creator (based on those reasons that I have furnished).Do you understand this leonheartmm? [/B]
Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveSo God being a spirit living outside of space and time and being the creator of all is not mystical? 😆
I don't recall ever saying that God does not require a creator [B]because He is God, those were your words.Furthermore, there is nothing mystical about why God does not require a creator. [/B]
Originally posted by AngryManatee
Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?
There are are number Scriptures in the Bible that teach that God is the Beginning and the End (i.e. He is eternal). There is nothing eternal in this scheme we call reality so this presupposes that God must not occupy this three-dimensional universe. Much of what I know is based on the Bible. The Bible says that God is eternal then I just take that literally unless the context suggests otherwise. How can God be the Beginning and End if He is subject to time? The whole phrase denotes that God has no origin or demise. In fact, (thank you Holy Spirit), that phrase tells you right there that God has no Creator. If God had a beginning then God was created. But God does not have a beginning; therefore, God was not created. You have a beginning, I have a beginning, everyone in this universe had a beginning. In addition, everything (i.e. everything physical) had a beginning including the universe.
So, my support for the things that I have written are based on Scripture which I understand through faith (because I was not present when God created the universe and set all natural laws into motion inexorably).
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There are are number Scriptures in the Bible that teach that God is the Beginning and the End (i.e. He is eternal). There is nothing eternal in this scheme we call reality so this presupposes that God must not occupy this three-dimensional universe. Much of what I know is based on the Bible. The Bible says that God is eternal then I just take that literally unless the context suggests otherwise. How can God be the Beginning and End if He is subject to time? The whole phrase denotes that God has no origin or demise. In fact, (thank you Holy Spirit), that phrase tells you right there that God has no Creator. If God had a beginning then God was created. But God does not have a beginning; therefore, God was not created. You have a beginning, I have a beginning, everyone in this universe had a beginning. In addition, everything (i.e. everything physical) had a beginning including the universe.So, my support for the things that I have written are based on Scripture which I understand through faith (because I was not present when God created the universe and set all natural laws into motion inexorably).
So it states in the Bible that god exists in another dimension then?
Originally posted by ThePittman
So God being a spirit living outside of space and time and being the creator of all is not mystical? 😆
Only in a dualistic metaphysic e.g. natural v. supernatural.
The atheist assumes that there is no "supernatural" in the first place. Just like the Christian would assume there is no "natural" in the first place as everything was created.
Originally posted by Ytse
Only in a dualistic metaphysic e.g. natural v. supernatural.The atheist assumes that there is no "supernatural" in the first place. Just like the Christian would assume there is no "natural" in the first place as everything was created.
Christians do not deny or assume that there is no natural just because all life and matter was created. We believe that spiritual and natural things are both compatible realities.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Christians do not deny or assume that there is no natural just because all life and matter was created. We believe that the spiritual and natural things are both compatible realities.
If God created everything from nothing, where does nature come into play? Unless you're being somewhat poetic in saying that God is nature.
Originally posted by AngryManatee
So it states in the Bible that god exists in another dimension then?
Not in those words. The Bible reveals that God is in Heaven. Heaven is not in this physical, material world, it is in the spirit world (which is not governed by the laws of physics or time). Some believe that Heaven sits on top of the universe.