Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Not in those words. The Bible reveals that God is in Heaven. Heaven is not in this physical, material world, it is in the spirit world (which is not governed by the laws of physics or time). Some believe that Heaven sits [B]on top of the universe. [/B]
so in other words it's your interpretation (i.e. opinion). That's fine if it's what you believe, but you shouldn't represent it as absolute truth, and especially not as fact.
Originally posted by Ytse
The material universe.
Nature (as defined by you) is a product of God's creative power. It functions according to the design that He intended for it to function. The laws of nature are divine laws (not laws that just came into being on their own out of nowhere). The fundamental forces of nature are God's laws that He set in motion (I presume this because those forces are composed of matter and matter cannot exist randomly, by chance. They had to have a Maker. Just as a lightbulb, generator, motor, or musicial beat in the background of a song has a creator, this material universe has a Creator.
Originally posted by Ytse
Then matter and energy aren't at the beginning of everything, God is. So, in a theistic worldview nothing is "natural" as such. Even the governing priciples of reality are sustained by God alone.
Correct, matter is not at the beginning of everything, God is (He is the Beginning).
Well, in a sense nothing is natural because all things came from God Who is a Spirit. But in a practical sense the things that we are exposed to are natural or physical. We understand life in this way because it is all we have ever known.
Correct, God governs this scheme that we call reality.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You are the umpteenth person to ask me who created God leonheartmm, but I have already explained to you that outside of this space-time continuum the law of cause and effect does not apply (in terms of God needing a Creator). You see God is in another dimension which is not governed by time, space, matter, the fundamental forces of nature, the laws of thermodynamics, etc. He governs and is the Maker of all natural laws. All matter requires a creator because it is governed by the laws of physics (being constituents of this three-dimensional universe). But God is a Spirit. Spirits are not subject to the laws of physics. Spirits are not bound by time (which governs the law of cause and effect as it relates to matter and space). Therefore, God has always existed because there is no time in the dimension where He lives (or occupies). Therefore He does not require a beginning (remember there is no time where God is). Time is part of the space-time continuum here in this universe which is composed of matter. But God exists in world not composed of physical matter; therefore, He is not bound by or subject to natural laws. This is why although God is the epitome of complexity and intelligence, He does not require a creator. Only things that are part of this scheme that we call reality or life require a creator (based on those reasons that I have furnished).
Do you understand this leonheartmm?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There are are number Scriptures in the Bible that teach that God is the Beginning and the End (i.e. He is eternal). There is nothing eternal in this scheme we call reality so this presupposes that God must not occupy this three-dimensional universe. Much of what I know is based on the Bible. The Bible says that God is eternal then I just take that literally unless the context suggests otherwise. How can God be the Beginning and End if He is subject to time? The whole phrase denotes that God has no origin or demise. In fact, (thank you Holy Spirit), that phrase tells you right there that God has no Creator. If God had a beginning then God was created. But God does not have a beginning; therefore, God was not created. You have a beginning, I have a beginning, everyone in this universe had a beginning. In addition, everything (i.e. everything physical) had a beginning including the universe.
So, my support for the things that I have written are based on Scripture which I understand through faith (because I was not present when God created the universe and set all natural laws into motion inexorably).
LMAO, its funny to see u try n assimilate what little uve heard about advanced physics into a model which supports ur view of god. exactly WHO says that the laws of cause and effect dont work outside 3d space??????????????????????????????????????????????????????
pick up a physics book, events dont have to preced or succede for cause and affect to occur there just has to be more than one dimension in any self contained piece of existance{universe} for cause and affect to occur. precisely why single dimensional or FLAT universes are not really considered a possibility in string/quantum theory. for movement to occur in a single dimension, it has to be linked to atlast one other dimension, that dimension, speaking, strictly physically acts as a TIME dimension for the single dimension were speaking of, thus things can, in a scientific sence, precede and succede and hence CAUSE and AFFECT occur without the existance of a TIME dimension{as we percieve it} the very REASON science can PREDICT other dimenions/universes beyond our 4d space time continuim is because we FOLLOW or EXTRAPOLTAE from the laws of CAUSE AND AFFECT! anything that does NOT follow cause and effect is NOT scientific!!!!!
also ur appropriately vagur about being "OUTSIDE the space time continuim" as an uninformed or misinformed person ought to be, what exactly do u mean by that, do u mean another universe???? remember that ALL universes outside our own space time continuium are more than one dimensional, follow the rule of cause and effect and have their version of FORCES which are stronger or weaker than our own, also, they have irregularities{most if not all of them} which results in them creating non uniform strutcures similar to what we see as mass, particles etc. they are also all JOINED to one another in one way or another. OUTSIDE of the MULTIVERSE{a bunch of infinite or nearly infinite and contantly increasing realities/universe punched end on end in complex dimensions} there exists nothing that we can observe scientifically. the very concept of their being/existing and OUTSIDE is false as these concepts exist as a framework of all observale realities. if god were to exist OUTSIDE this then he wudnt exist in a DIMENSION as u say, nor wud he exist in anything that can be described as EXISTANCE, so in effect he wud neither be PRESENT, nor wud he EXIST , so ur wrong in ur explanation on al these acounts. also u claim to not be poetic or MYSTIC yet all u really had to say was GOD EXISTS BEYOND LOGIC/EXISTANCE/SCIENTIFICALLYOBSERVABLE OR EXTRAPULATED WORLD/WHAT UR MIND CAN FATHOM. yet u had to sound knowledgable and give a psuedo logical/scientific definition based on general knowledge of physics.
id like to add that according to string theory and most other quantum based theories, neither matter nor time or space need to have a CREATOR to come into existance, going by string theory, an infinite number of universes are already forming inside the space u occupy randomly making their own unique dimension and properties, this universe also arose from another universes probably different dimensions than our own and hence all space, time and matter/energy was created from NOTHING "MATERIAL" it was an INTERACTION of dimensions not guided by any observable concionce nor needing it and even though it AROSE of the interaction, it does not in ANY way CONSIST of the dimensions interacting, taking out the need for a CREATOR, so yea according to most science none of hte things u mentioned need a creator or assembler. the other major theory is that the universe has always existed{this one based basically on reletivity but also on quantum mechanics} and expands and contracts due to gravity, some say the contraction leads to a big crunch forming a new universe {rebirth, which means that the current universe BEGAN from a crunch of a previous crunch} while others say that quantum effects force the universe apart when all existance and matter comes too close to undergiong a big crunch and it SEEMS like a big bang meaning the universe had no beginning and no end{eternal recurrance} it also stated that time exists as a result of the expansion of the universe.
in the end u make the gross error of starting from a dogmatic, faith based conclusion, then following on to look at and accept any logical or physical theories and in the end again referring to ur subjective view to back up that specific logical or scientific evidence u have dug up. this is a completely illogical and unsceintific approach. u should start with a hypothesis, experiment or look at experiments to STRICTLY judge the independant and dependant variables of ur assumed hypothesis and if the results agree u can say its an ACCEPTABLE theory. and if the results disagree, then it is forever proven to be false. dont delude urself into thinking that ur beliefs are rational or logically backed.
Originally posted by AngryManatee
Well seeing as how the example I cited has shown to be able to self-assemble, yes, it does have logic behind it. Good try with the watchmaker analogy though.Edit: And by self assembly, I mean at an atomic level, based on the attraction of different atoms and molecules.
Edit: Not to mention, RNA fragments have been shown to self-assemble in early earth conditions as well.
But here is the kicker: it did not come from nothing, it came from preexistent material (i.e. organic compounds). Organic compounds are composed of matter and matter requires a Creator.
Also, the fact remains that life cannot be created from non-life.
🙁
oh yea, forgot to say, the things i addressed in my last post are ALL baseless assumptions on ur part with no evidence let alone proof to back them up, heck theyr not even mentioned in the bible. they are just ur personal far fetched extrapolations of certain bible quotes{which is a subjective source, which is already proven to be inconsistant/self contradictory and logically false in the eyes of the non believers to whom ur trying to prove the point to}
Originally posted by AngryManatee
so in other words it's your interpretation (i.e. opinion). That's fine if it's what you believe, but you shouldn't represent it as absolute truth, and especially not as fact.
It is an interpretation that is based on Scripture. All interpretations are either based on Scripture or they are not. If I say that God is a fly based on Scripture then there should be passages of Scripture in the Bible that support this. If I cannot find any Scripture to support this then yes, that would be my interpretation. But if there are Scriptures (actual chapters and verses that support this) then no it is not my interpretation. Reading something and then inferring what it states based on what you read is not necessarily a private interpretation, especially if others come to the same conclusion. For example, the Bible states that God is a Spirit. If I read that and then come to the conclusion that God is not a calculator, in your opinion have I just personally interpreted that Scripture? No, I just inferred based on Scripture that God cannot be a calculator because a calculator is not a Spirit. This is all I have done in my earlier posts based on what I have read in the Bible.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But here is the kicker: it did not come from nothing, it came from preexistent material (i.e. organic compounds). Organic compounds are composed of matter and matter requires a Creator.Also, the [B]fact
remains that life cannot be created from non-life.🙁 [/B]
That's not fact. That is still your opinion. As stated before, it has been shown that organic compounds can be made from inorganic substances, although this is rather redundant to say since we are called carbon-based lifeforms.
Anywho, it remains that organic molecules have been shown to have the capability to form from inorganics in an environment that is ideal for this process such as the early earth model with a reducing/neutral atmosphere, and have also been shown to form structure on their own based on their chemical and atomic composition.
If you want an even simpler example, then look at liposomes. Liposomes form from phospholipids that are in water, and being that they are hydrophobic, will form little spheroids with other phospholipids and lipid chains, forming a phospholipid bilayer with an aqueous interior. Another interesting aspect is that if proteins or amino acids get stuck in this membrane, it often exhibits traits similar to that of a phospholipid bilayer of a cell.
As I stated before, protobionts are shown to be able to self-assemble, and they can carry out metabolic processes and even replication, and are also excitable. Not to mention it's been shown, as I stated before, that pieces of RNA can self assemble as well in early earth conditions, from components that have been shown to be able to originate from inorganic sources (nucleic acids, lipids, amino acids, etc). Feel free to not ignore these examples next time.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You are the umpteenth person to ask me who created God leonheartmm, but I have already explained to you that outside of this space-time continuum the law of cause and effect does not apply (in terms of God needing a Creator). You see God is in another dimension which is not governed by time, space, matter, the fundamental forces of nature, the laws of thermodynamics, etc. He governs and is the Maker of all natural laws. All matter requires a creator because it is governed by the laws of physics (being constituents of this three-dimensional universe). But God is a Spirit. Spirits are not subject to the laws of physics. Spirits are not bound by time (which governs the law of cause and effect as it relates to matter and space). Therefore, God has always existed because there is no time in the dimension where He lives (or occupies). Therefore He does not require a beginning (remember there is no time where God is). Time is part of the space-time continuum here in this universe which is composed of matter. But God exists in world not composed of physical matter; therefore, He is not bound by or subject to natural laws. This is why although God is the epitome of complexity and intelligence, He does not require a creator. Only things that are part of this scheme that we call reality or life require a creator (based on those reasons that I have furnished).Do you understand this leonheartmm?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There are are number Scriptures in the Bible that teach that God is the Beginning and the End (i.e. He is eternal). There is nothing eternal in this scheme we call reality so this presupposes that God must not occupy this three-dimensional universe. Much of what I know is based on the Bible. The Bible says that God is eternal then I just take that literally unless the context suggests otherwise. How can God be the Beginning and End if He is subject to time? The whole phrase denotes that God has no origin or demise. In fact, (thank you Holy Spirit), that phrase tells you right there that God has no Creator. If God had a beginning then God was created. But God does not have a beginning; therefore, God was not created. You have a beginning, I have a beginning, everyone in this universe had a beginning. In addition, everything (i.e. everything physical) had a beginning including the universe.So, my support for the things that I have written are based on Scripture which I understand through faith (because I was not present when God created the universe and set all natural laws into motion inexorably).
LMAO, its funny to see u try n assimilate what little uve heard about advanced physics into a model which supports ur view of god. exactly WHO says that the laws of cause and effect dont work outside 3d space??????????????????????????????????????????????????????
pick up a physics book, events dont have to preced or succede for cause and affect to occur there just has to be more than one dimension in any self contained piece of existance{universe} for cause and affect to occur. precisely why single dimensional or FLAT universes are not really considered a possibility in string/quantum theory. for movement to occur in a single dimension, it has to be linked to atlast one other dimension, that dimension, speaking, strictly physically acts as a TIME dimension for the single dimension were speaking of, thus things can, in a scientific sence, precede and succede and hence CAUSE and AFFECT occur without the existance of a TIME dimension{as we percieve it} the very REASON science can PREDICT other dimenions/universes beyond our 4d space time continuim is because we FOLLOW or EXTRAPOLTAE from the laws of CAUSE AND AFFECT! anything that does NOT follow cause and effect is NOT scientific!!!!!also ur appropriately vagur about being "OUTSIDE the space time continuim" as an uninformed or misinformed person ought to be, what exactly do u mean by that, do u mean another universe???? remember that ALL universes outside our own space time continuium are more than one dimensional, follow the rule of cause and effect and have their version of FORCES which are stronger or weaker than our own, also, they have irregularities{most if not all of them} which results in them creating non uniform strutcures similar to what we see as mass, particles etc. they are also all JOINED to one another in one way or another. OUTSIDE of the MULTIVERSE{a bunch of infinite or nearly infinite and contantly increasing realities/universe punched end on end in complex dimensions} there exists nothing that we can observe scientifically. the very concept of their being/existing and OUTSIDE is false as these concepts exist as a framework of all observale realities. if god were to exist OUTSIDE this then he wudnt exist in a DIMENSION as u say, nor wud he exist in anything that can be described as EXISTANCE, so in effect he wud neither be PRESENT, nor wud he EXIST , so ur wrong in ur explanation on al these acounts. also u claim to not be poetic or MYSTIC yet all u really had to say was GOD EXISTS BEYOND LOGIC/EXISTANCE/SCIENTIFICALLYOBSERVABLE OR EXTRAPULATED WORLD/WHAT UR MIND CAN FATHOM. yet u had to sound knowledgable and give a psuedo logical/scientific definition based on general knowledge of physics.
id like to add that according to string theory and most other quantum based theories, neither matter nor time or space need to have a CREATOR to come into existance, going by string theory, an infinite number of universes are already forming inside the space u occupy randomly making their own unique dimension and properties, this universe also arose from another universes probably different dimensions than our own and hence all space, time and matter/energy was created from NOTHING "MATERIAL" it was an INTERACTION of dimensions not guided by any observable concionce nor needing it and even though it AROSE of the interaction, it does not in ANY way CONSIST of the dimensions interacting, taking out the need for a CREATOR, so yea according to most science none of hte things u mentioned need a creator or assembler. the other major theory is that the universe has always existed{this one based basically on reletivity but also on quantum mechanics} and expands and contracts due to gravity, some say the contraction leads to a big crunch forming a new universe {rebirth, which means that the current universe BEGAN from a crunch of a previous crunch} while others say that quantum effects force the universe apart when all existance and matter comes too close to undergiong a big crunch and it SEEMS like a big bang meaning the universe had no beginning and no end{eternal recurrance} it also stated that time exists as a result of the expansion of the universe.
in the end u make the gross error of starting from a dogmatic, faith based conclusion, then following on to look at and accept any logical or physical theories and in the end again referring to ur subjective view to back up that specific logical or scientific evidence u have dug up. this is a completely illogical and unsceintific approach. u should start with a hypothesis, experiment or look at experiments to STRICTLY judge the independant and dependant variables of ur assumed hypothesis and if the results agree u can say its an ACCEPTABLE theory. and if the results disagree, then it is forever proven to be false. dont delude urself into thinking that ur beliefs are rational or logically backed.
Question: is time significant with regard to physics? Yes? It is? Well, then in the absence of time would there be a cause and effect? No? There wouldn’t be? My point precisely. You see time is linear; it moves in one direction in this space-time continuum. No matter how hard you try leonheartmm you cannot go back in time. You are moving closer to the grave with every second that passes. Well, why? Because of time. The laws of cause and effect operate in this universe because it is a space-time continuum composed of matter.
God exists in another realm if you would that has no time. If there is no time where God is (and there isn’t) then cause and effect do not exist in a linear, forward moving manner as it does in this universe. Besides, everything that you describe is based on physical phenomena or scientific discovery. You cannot use present discovery to describe undiscovered phenomena (this kind of knowledge must come from another source, and it has the B-i-b-l-e). In other words, some things must be revealed to us leonheartmm because there is no other way to know them. For example, had it not been for the Bible we would not have known that there was a Heaven to gain and a Hell to shun.
Notwithstanding, keep on believing in your theories and I will be on my way to see God in Heaven when I die or when Jesus returns to get His church. But don’t fret, I will let God know that you don’t believe that He created the universe. I want to see how hard he laughs. It’s okay though just going believing in your theories.
With regard to the Big Crunch Theory, I have already been inundated with the whole Big Crunch Theory. You know what I find the most amusing about all of these theories, is that all of them seem to give very seemingly, credible-sounding explanations about the effects of things (i.e. the existence of the universe, the origin of life) but they all miserably fail to explain the cause.
Originally posted by AngryManatee
That's not fact. That is still your opinion. As stated before, it has been shown that organic compounds can be made from inorganic substances, although this is rather redundant to say since we are called carbon-based lifeforms.Anywho, it remains that organic molecules have been shown to have the capability to form from inorganics in an environment that is ideal for this process such as the early earth model with a reducing/neutral atmosphere, and have also been shown to form structure on their own based on their chemical and atomic composition.
If you want an even simpler example, then look at liposomes. Liposomes form from phospholipids that are in water, and being that they are hydrophobic, will form little spheroids with other phospholipids and lipid chains, forming a phospholipid bilayer with an aqueous interior. Another interesting aspect is that if proteins or amino acids get stuck in this membrane, it often exhibits traits similar to that of a phospholipid bilayer of a cell.
As I stated before, protobionts are shown to be able to self-assemble, and they can carry out metabolic processes and even replication, and are also excitable. Not to mention it's been shown, as I stated before, that pieces of RNA can self assemble as well in early earth conditions, from components that have been shown to be able to originate from inorganic sources (nucleic acids, lipids, amino acids, etc). Feel free to not ignore these examples next time.
Uh, Angrymanatee...spontaneous generation has not been proven; therefore, it is not a fact. In fact, the fact remains that life cannot arise from non-life. This is fact. I honestly do not know what you are reading. In order for something to be considered "life" or "living," it must meet certain criteria. None of the examples that you have meet life's criteria.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Uh, Angrymanatee...spontaneous generation has not been proven; therefore, it is not a fact. In fact, the fact remains that life cannot arise from non-life. This is fact. I honestly do not know what you are reading. In order for something to be considered "life" or "living," it must meet certain criteria. None of the examples that you have meet life's criteria.
You were never asking for a living organism. You were asking for something complex that came about by "chance," as you so stated. And yes, generation of organic molecules from inorganic substance has been shown to be probable, as I so stated in my previous post. The fact that something such as a protobiont can spontaneously self-assemble is very supportive of the idea of organic molecules, not to mention organisms, originated from inorganic substance, but you weren't asking for that. You only asked for something complex, which I have shown. That is all.
Edit: If you must know where I get my information, it's from the Cellular and Molecular Biology class I took, and also my Physical Anthropology class I took from the previous semester.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Question: is time significant with regard to physics? Yes? It is? Well, then in the absence of time would there be a cause and effect? No? There wouldn’t be? My point precisely. You see time is linear; it moves in one direction in this space-time continuum. No matter how hard you try leonheartmm you cannot go back in time. You are moving closer to the grave with every second that passes. Well, why? Because of time. The laws of cause and effect operate in this universe because it is a space-time continuum composed of matter.God exists in another realm if you would that has no time. If there is no time where God is (and there isn’t) then cause and effect do not exist in a linear, forward moving manner as it does in this universe. Besides, everything that you describe is based on physical phenomena or scientific discovery. You cannot use present discovery to describe undiscovered phenomena (this kind of knowledge must come from another source, and it has the B-i-b-l-e). In other words, some things must be [B]revealed
to us leonheartmm because there is no other way to know them. For example, had it not been for the Bible we would not have known that there was a Heaven to gain and a Hell to shun.Notwithstanding, keep on believing in your theories and I will be on my way to see God in Heaven when I die or when Jesus returns to get His church. But don’t fret, I will let God know that you don’t believe that He created the universe. I want to see how hard he laughs. It’s okay though just going believing in your theories.
With regard to the Big Crunch Theory, I have already been inundated with the whole Big Crunch Theory. You know what I find the most amusing about all of these theories, is that all of them seem to give very seemingly, credible-sounding explanations about the effects of things (i.e. the existence of the universe, the origin of life) but they all miserably fail to explain the cause. [/B]
LMAO, i already EXPLAINED how TIME is nothing more than another dimension and is not a necessity of cause and effect, or cant u read? restating false facts wont help ur argument. ALL that is neede for cause and affect to occur is more than one dimension. time is JUST another dimension. time is NOT linear, it is NOT moving in the space time continuoum, its MOVEMENT{the ARROW of time as we call it in physics} is a purely perceptual phenomenon that has almost nothing to do with physical reality{there was i thread on this in which i posted, "when did time come into existance"} . i also explained in the post how god can not EXIST in another DIMENSION{u still given the explanation of what u mean by a DIMENSION OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE, which i PLEADED u to give!}but again ud rather ognore than address.
u also make the fallacious point that present discovery can not tell us about UNDISCOVERED phenomenon and only god/bible can tell us that, its simply not true. first off, as ive proven{among many others} that theres no evidence to believe and loads of evidence to disbelieve the bible as an even remotely credible source of unknown scientific information. also much of what we know about was undiscovered 60 years ago, did the bible enlighten us on its????? NO, did science enlighten us?????? YES. so both ways ur wrong. the two examples u give have humurously been DISPROVEN by science/logic as the OUTSIDE unknown undiscocovered information utalk about.{heaven to gain hell to shun}
do illuminate us on how uve been INUNDATED by the big crunch theory. id really like to know. and ur statement that the theories MISERABLY fail to explain the cause is a COMPLETE AND UTTER fallacy. string theory predicts the universe began when two resonating dimensional strings in a universe different from our own MET in the dimension and interacted to IMPLODE forming all our universes dimension{space time} and determining the strength of the 4 forces that exist. the big bang theory states that at the beginning all matter/energy existed at a singularity where all space and time was confined and the distance between any two points was zero and the densite was infinite, because the structure was unstable thermodynamically and force wise{dimension wise too} it exploded{i DO admit that there are possible places in THIS specific theory where an outside force like a GOD of any relegion can be added as having STARTED the whole process, see im not illogical, where the possibility exists i admit it does} or implode expanding{or miniaturizing} into all known dimension forces and matter. for a basic overview of the concept i suggest u read stephen hawkin's classic{for the normal man} "a brief hitory of time". also it might have been random without any outside influence. this was also the starting point of TIME.
the big crunch model suggests that the universe as happened before will stop expanding{both space/time andmatter in the universe IS expanding now, thas a fact} due to gravity and start to contract, in this occcurance time will travel backwards and the whole universe will be eventually crushed to another singularity as existed in the big bang and cause another big bang leadeing to another big crunch{eternal recurrance} and this has always continued and will always continue.
the quantum theory model proposes that the universe goes through stages of expansion and then stops under gravity, then follows the big crunch mode but just before becoming a singularity, quantum effects stop it and propell it outwards making it exists forever without going through conception or death{the singularity phase}. in this case the universe has always existed. all of these are backed by the fact that real singularities do exist and in them all known laws of physics break down as the acceleration is greater than even light can escape and the distance between any two points is zero which gives no non complex slution in physical equation. see, we even predict how the current physical laws wud work in the situations. i think thas enough to tell any1 that ur claim of the models FAILING MISERABLY at trying to explain the cause is completely false, quite the opposite.
also ifind it funny that ur OMNIBENEVOLANT god wud be so cruel enough as to LAUGH {a very HUMAN selfish act} at the misfortune of one of his CONDEMNED CHILDREN! u obviously dont realise how much ur humiliating an omnipotent trancendant being by giving it such PATHETIC characteristics. but hey if it lets u sleep better, go on believing it.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You are the umpteenth person to ask me who created God leonheartmm, but I have already explained to you that outside of this space-time continuum the law of cause and effect does not apply (in terms of God needing a Creator). You see God is in another dimension which is not governed by time, space, matter, the fundamental forces of nature, the laws of thermodynamics, etc. He governs and is the Maker of all natural laws. All matter requires a creator because it is governed by the laws of physics (being constituents of this three-dimensional universe). But God is a Spirit. Spirits are not subject to the laws of physics. Spirits are not bound by time (which governs the law of cause and effect as it relates to matter and space). Therefore, God has always existed because there is no time in the dimension where He lives (or occupies). Therefore He does not require a beginning (remember there is no time where God is). Time is part of the space-time continuum here in this universe which is composed of matter. But God exists in world not composed of physical matter; therefore, He is not bound by or subject to natural laws. This is why although God is the epitome of complexity and intelligence, He does not require a creator. Only things that are part of this scheme that we call reality or life require a creator (based on those reasons that I have furnished).Do you understand this leonheartmm?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There are are number Scriptures in the Bible that teach that God is the Beginning and the End (i.e. He is eternal). There is nothing eternal in this scheme we call reality so this presupposes that God must not occupy this three-dimensional universe. Much of what I know is based on the Bible. The Bible says that God is eternal then I just take that literally unless the context suggests otherwise. How can God be the Beginning and End if He is subject to time? The whole phrase denotes that God has no origin or demise. In fact, (thank you Holy Spirit), that phrase tells you right there that God has no Creator. If God had a beginning then God was created. But God does not have a beginning; therefore, God was not created. You have a beginning, I have a beginning, everyone in this universe had a beginning. In addition, everything (i.e. everything physical) had a beginning including the universe.So, my support for the things that I have written are based on Scripture which I understand through faith (because I was not present when God created the universe and set all natural laws into motion inexorably).
LMAO, its funny to see u try n assimilate what little uve heard about advanced physics into a model which supports ur view of god. exactly WHO says that the laws of cause and effect dont work outside 3d space??????????????????????????????????????????????????????
pick up a physics book, events dont have to preced or succede for cause and affect to occur there just has to be more than one dimension in any self contained piece of existance{universe} for cause and affect to occur. precisely why single dimensional or FLAT universes are not really considered a possibility in string/quantum theory. for movement to occur in a single dimension, it has to be linked to atlast one other dimension, that dimension, speaking, strictly physically acts as a TIME dimension for the single dimension were speaking of, thus things can, in a scientific sence, precede and succede and hence CAUSE and AFFECT occur without the existance of a TIME dimension{as we percieve it} the very REASON science can PREDICT other dimenions/universes beyond our 4d space time continuim is because we FOLLOW or EXTRAPOLTAE from the laws of CAUSE AND AFFECT! anything that does NOT follow cause and effect is NOT scientific!!!!!also ur appropriately vagur about being "OUTSIDE the space time continuim" as an uninformed or misinformed person ought to be, what exactly do u mean by that, do u mean another universe???? remember that ALL universes outside our own space time continuium are more than one dimensional, follow the rule of cause and effect and have their version of FORCES which are stronger or weaker than our own, also, they have irregularities{most if not all of them} which results in them creating non uniform strutcures similar to what we see as mass, particles etc. they are also all JOINED to one another in one way or another. OUTSIDE of the MULTIVERSE{a bunch of infinite or nearly infinite and contantly increasing realities/universe punched end on end in complex dimensions} there exists nothing that we can observe scientifically. the very concept of their being/existing and OUTSIDE is false as these concepts exist as a framework of all observale realities. if god were to exist OUTSIDE this then he wudnt exist in a DIMENSION as u say, nor wud he exist in anything that can be described as EXISTANCE, so in effect he wud neither be PRESENT, nor wud he EXIST , so ur wrong in ur explanation on al these acounts. also u claim to not be poetic or MYSTIC yet all u really had to say was GOD EXISTS BEYOND LOGIC/EXISTANCE/SCIENTIFICALLYOBSERVABLE OR EXTRAPULATED WORLD/WHAT UR MIND CAN FATHOM. yet u had to sound knowledgable and give a psuedo logical/scientific definition based on general knowledge of physics.
id like to add that according to string theory and most other quantum based theories, neither matter nor time or space need to have a CREATOR to come into existance, going by string theory, an infinite number of universes are already forming inside the space u occupy randomly making their own unique dimension and properties, this universe also arose from another universes probably different dimensions than our own and hence all space, time and matter/energy was created from NOTHING "MATERIAL" it was an INTERACTION of dimensions not guided by any observable concionce nor needing it and even though it AROSE of the interaction, it does not in ANY way CONSIST of the dimensions interacting, taking out the need for a CREATOR, so yea according to most science none of hte things u mentioned need a creator or assembler. the other major theory is that the universe has always existed{this one based basically on reletivity but also on quantum mechanics} and expands and contracts due to gravity, some say the contraction leads to a big crunch forming a new universe {rebirth, which means that the current universe BEGAN from a crunch of a previous crunch} while others say that quantum effects force the universe apart when all existance and matter comes too close to undergiong a big crunch and it SEEMS like a big bang meaning the universe had no beginning and no end{eternal recurrance} it also stated that time exists as a result of the expansion of the universe.
in the end u make the gross error of starting from a dogmatic, faith based conclusion, then following on to look at and accept any logical or physical theories and in the end again referring to ur subjective view to back up that specific logical or scientific evidence u have dug up. this is a completely illogical and unsceintific approach. u should start with a hypothesis, experiment or look at experiments to STRICTLY judge the independant and dependant variables of ur assumed hypothesis and if the results agree u can say its an ACCEPTABLE theory. and if the results disagree, then it is forever proven to be false. dont delude urself into thinking that ur beliefs are rational or logically backed.
repost, u again failed to see what was written, read again.
I get a laugh every time I come to this thread. 😆 I like how God is now in the land of Sci-Fi and how this twist is placed in the Bible. JIA, everything you have been saying about God being in another dimension is laughable and making it sound like a Star Trek episode. You have no proof of this and is complete speculation on your part, in fact I in all my years debating about religion have never heard it put in this fantastic way.
So my question would be how does God create something out of nothing, in your "sprit" realm? What was there before he created it? Is the universe as we know it in a little corner of his "sprit" realm? Are we sitting in a little bottle on his desk?
Originally posted by leonheartmm
LMAO, i already EXPLAINED how TIME is nothing more than another dimension and is not a necessity of cause and effect, or cant u read? restating false facts wont help ur argument. ALL that is neede for cause and affect to occur is more than one dimension. time is JUST another dimension. time is NOT linear, it is NOT moving in the space time continuoum, its MOVEMENT{the ARROW of time as we call it in physics} is a purely perceptual phenomenon that has almost nothing to do with physical reality{there was i thread on this in which i posted, "when did time come into existance"} . i also explained in the post how god can not EXIST in another DIMENSION{u still given the explanation of what u mean by a DIMENSION OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE, which i PLEADED u to give!}but again ud rather ognore than address.u also make the fallacious point that present discovery can not tell us about UNDISCOVERED phenomenon and only god/bible can tell us that, its simply not true. first off, as ive proven{among many others} that theres no evidence to believe and loads of evidence to disbelieve the bible as an even remotely credible source of unknown scientific information. also much of what we know about was undiscovered 60 years ago, did the bible enlighten us on its????? NO, did science enlighten us?????? YES. so both ways ur wrong. the two examples u give have humurously been DISPROVEN by science/logic as the OUTSIDE unknown undiscocovered information utalk about.{heaven to gain hell to shun}
do illuminate us on how uve been INUNDATED by the big crunch theory. id really like to know. and ur statement that the theories MISERABLY fail to explain the cause is a COMPLETE AND UTTER fallacy. string theory predicts the universe began when two resonating dimensional strings in a universe different from our own MET in the dimension and interacted to IMPLODE forming all our universes dimension{space time} and determining the strength of the 4 forces that exist. the big bang theory states that at the beginning all matter/energy existed at a singularity where all space and time was confined and the distance between any two points was zero and the densite was infinite, because the structure was unstable thermodynamically and force wise{dimension wise too} it exploded{i DO admit that there are possible places in THIS specific theory where an outside force like a GOD of any relegion can be added as having STARTED the whole process, see im not illogical, where the possibility exists i admit it does} or implode expanding{or miniaturizing} into all known dimension forces and matter. for a basic overview of the concept i suggest u read stephen hawkin's classic{for the normal man} "a brief hitory of time". also it might have been random without any outside influence. this was also the starting point of TIME.
the big crunch model suggests that the universe as happened before will stop expanding{both space/time andmatter in the universe IS expanding now, thas a fact} due to gravity and start to contract, in this occcurance time will travel backwards and the whole universe will be eventually crushed to another singularity as existed in the big bang and cause another big bang leadeing to another big crunch{eternal recurrance} and this has always continued and will always continue.
the quantum theory model proposes that the universe goes through stages of expansion and then stops under gravity, then follows the big crunch mode but just before becoming a singularity, quantum effects stop it and propell it outwards making it exists forever without going through conception or death{the singularity phase}. in this case the universe has always existed. all of these are backed by the fact that real singularities do exist and in them all known laws of physics break down as the acceleration is greater than even light can escape and the distance between any two points is zero which gives no non complex slution in physical equation. see, we even predict how the current physical laws wud work in the situations. i think thas enough to tell any1 that ur claim of the models FAILING MISERABLY at trying to explain the cause is completely false, quite the opposite.also ifind it funny that ur OMNIBENEVOLANT god wud be so cruel enough as to LAUGH {a very HUMAN selfish act} at the misfortune of one of his CONDEMNED CHILDREN! u obviously dont realise how much ur humiliating an omnipotent trancendant being by giving it such PATHETIC characteristics. but hey if it lets u sleep better, go on believing it.
Omnibenevolant? 😑 😖
Leonheartmm, hate to burst your bubble but time is linear (i.e. it is one dimensional). Stop and think about it for a minute: can you travel back in time? No? Well, why not? Because...time-is-linear. Tell you what why don't go into the future and then come and tell us who will win the superbowl five years from now. Am I asking too much? Well, why? I thought that time was not linear, that it was just movement? Hmm, linear and arrow, boy these two concepts sound alike. Just ask Goddess Kali about the whole Big Crunch spill--which is a theory by the way not a proven fact just like the rest of the theories out there.
Leonheartmm, where did the two dimensional strings come from? Better yet, where did the universe come from that the two dimensional strings were in come from? Oh, I forgot it's called the String Theory. It amazes me how you describe all of this dynamic activity (which are subject to the law of cause and effect) in detail yet can't explain what caused it "intially". Just for your fyi leonheartmm, no physical thing is eternal, only spiritual things are eternal.
I should have qualified my statement about present discovery not being able to explain undiscovered phenomenon. Present discovery cannot explain spiritual Truth or reality (this is the undiscovered phenomenon that I was referring to). However the Bible is replete with scientific information. I posted a link a while back I will see if I can locate it.
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml (scientfic facts that the Bible mentions before scientific discovery).
I didn't know that laughing was a selfish act. That statement makes me want to laugh. 😂 (Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.) I just find it humorous that you are so confident in the accuracy of the theories that you support, you are so sincere. Did you know that you can be sincerely wrong leonheartmm? I have known people that were so cocksure about something only to discover that they were wrong as a nine dollar bill.
Originally posted by ThePittman
I get a laugh every time I come to this thread. 😆 I like how God is now in the land of Sci-Fi and how this twist is placed in the Bible. JIA, everything you have been saying about God being in another dimension is laughable and making it sound like a Star Trek episode. You have no proof of this and is complete speculation on your part, in fact I in all my years debating about religion have never heard it put in this fantastic way.So my question would be how does God create something out of nothing, in your "sprit" realm? What was there before he created it? Is the universe as we know it in a little corner of his "sprit" realm? Are we sitting in a little bottle on his desk?
Thank you, really, it was nothing (I am being sarcastic, but in a fun way).
😄 🙄
What was there before God created what? The universe? Most likely the spirit world was all that existed before God created the physical universe.
Originally posted by AngryManatee
You were never asking for a living organism. You were asking for something complex that came about by "chance," as you so stated. And yes, generation of organic molecules from inorganic substance has been shown to be probable, as I so stated in my previous post. The fact that something such as a protobiont can spontaneously self-assemble is very supportive of the idea of organic molecules, not to mention organisms, originated from inorganic substance, but you weren't asking for that. You only asked for something complex, which I have shown. That is all.Edit: If you must know where I get my information, it's from the Cellular and Molecular Biology class I took, and also my Physical Anthropology class I took from the previous semester.
Probable and possible are two different things, but thanks anyway.
😄
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveSo if all that was was the spirit realm then where did go put this universe? If matter doesn't exist in the spirit realm then where did all this come from? Why would he need to give us a material form? If time is not linear in his realm then why would he make time linear for us?
Thank you, really, it was nothing (I am being sarcastic, but in a fun way).😄 🙄
What was there before God created what? The universe? Most likely the spirit world was all that existed before God created the physical universe.