Can you handle the Truth?

Started by JesusIsAlive432 pages
Originally posted by ThePittman
You are thinking that time is linear and finite and God can exist because he is not subject to time therefore he is the beginning and the end. If time is not always forward moving then he can not exist and something has to be before him. Also understanding how things are made down to the minutest particle and understanding and controlling the fundamentals of the universe are within our ability.

You word this confusingly. I never said that God can exist because He is not subject to time. (God exists because He is self-existent.) I said that God does not have a beginning because He is not subject to time; hence, God does not require a creator.

Nothing can precede God because God is the First Cause as it were.

What do you mean by, "...understanding and controlling the fundamentals of the universe are within our ability."?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You word this confusingly. I never said that God can exist [B]because He is not subject to time. (God exists because He is self-existent.) I said that God does not have a beginning because He is not subject to time; hence, God does not require a creator.

Nothing can precede God because God is the First Cause as it were.

What do you mean by, "...understanding and controlling the fundamentals of the universe are within our ability."? [/B]

You have said on several occasions that complex thing can not be made at random and that we as humans haven’t been able to reproduce the creation of life. This is part that we haven’t as of yet mastered all of the knowledge and understanding of how this happens. We as a species are still infants in our understanding of the universe and how it works. With each passing generation we know more and more about how the universe and life works, just in the past 100 years breakthroughs in science and medicine were unthinkable before.

As with God and time, if time is linear then there is no beginning and no end so something was before him and something will be after him. I have also heard others say that God has to obey the laws of reality just as we do but has a greater understanding and can do things that we do not understand. So which do I consider valid?

Originally posted by ThePittman
You have said on several occasions that complex thing can not be made at random and that we as humans haven’t been able to reproduce the creation of life. This is part that we haven’t as of yet mastered all of the knowledge and understanding of how this happens. We as a species are still infants in our understanding of the universe and how it works. With each passing generation we know more and more about how the universe and life works, just in the past 100 years breakthroughs in science and medicine were unthinkable before.

As with God and time, if time is linear then there is no beginning and no end so something was before him and something will be after him. I have also heard others say that God has to obey the laws of reality just as we do but has a greater understanding and can do things that we do not understand. So which do I consider valid?

There is no time where God is. Time is linked to space and matter (here in this physical world).

You don't think there is something strange about the fact that some scientists believe that this universe is the product of a random, chance explosion or expansion?

How can something putatively constructed randomly and by chance result in complex, intelligent life, and laws that function logically and with mathematical precision? Scientists are still trying to discover and figure out the many mysteries that this universe presents to them? The notion that the universe and everything in it is a product of chance is so incredible that it should not even been considered for debate. It makes no logical, rational sense.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There is no time where God is. Time is linked to space and matter (here in this physical world).

You don't think there is something strange about the fact that some scientists believe that this universe is the product of a random, chance explosion or expansion?

How can something putatively constructed randomly and by chance result in complex, intelligent life, and laws that function logically and with mathematical precision? Scientists are still trying to discover and figure out the many mysteries that this universe presents to them? The notion that the universe and everything in it is a product of chance is so incredible that it should not even been considered for debate. It makes no logical, rational sense.

And how do you know that time, a human concept is linked to the physical world?

As for the universe being random and by chance, yes because I can see it in everyday life on a small scale. Just because we don’t as of yet fully understand how it happened doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen by chance. As for something random creating a human, no I don’t believe that can happen but by chance and the right conditions making organic matter that isn’t complex and it evolving into something more complex is not logical.

The idea of God making everything out of pure thought is just illogical to me as evolution is to you. It would have the same merit as some dumb kid in 3rd grade science class making a universe by mixing in a bunch of chemicals, or that we are just an atom in a giant’s toenail.

Also which idea do I consider valid, yours or the other idea that God is still subject to the laws of our reality?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There is no time where God is. Time is linked to space and matter (here in this physical world).

You don't think there is something strange about the fact that some scientists believe that this universe is the product of a random, chance explosion or expansion?

How can something putatively constructed randomly and by chance result in complex, intelligent life, and laws that function logically and with mathematical precision? Scientists are still trying to discover and figure out the many mysteries that this universe presents to them? The notion that the universe and everything in it is a product of chance is so incredible that it should not even been considered for debate. It makes no logical, rational sense.


please, if you are going to rant about physics UNDERSTAND them first, IF(and that's a BIG "if"😉 there is a god, it then HAS to be in time, otherwise, it would not be able to manifest itself, it would lack coherency and continuity and it would make no sense.
oh, and if you answer me, PLEASE don't quote the bible, use your OWN logic instead of ranting on and on
good day Ò_ó9

Originally posted by ThePittman
And how do you know that time, a human concept is linked to the physical world?

As for the universe being random and by chance, yes because I can see it in everyday life on a small scale. Just because we don’t as of yet fully understand how it happened doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen by chance. As for something random creating a human, no I don’t believe that can happen but by chance and the right conditions making organic matter that isn’t complex and it evolving into something more complex is not logical.

The idea of God making everything out of pure thought is just illogical to me as evolution is to you. It would have the same merit as some dumb kid in 3rd grade science class making a universe by mixing in a bunch of chemicals, or that we are just an atom in a giant’s toenail.

Also which idea do I consider valid, yours or the other idea that God is still subject to the laws of our reality?

Time is linked to matter. Einsteins's General Theory of Relativity postulates this principle.

The origin of the universe and life is a very complicated matter that required an adequate cause. Things that are less complicated require intelligent design (as opposed to random, chance occurence). There is no reason to believe that the universe, life, natural laws, etc. with their level of complication could have come into being without adequate, intelligent, design/cause. It is not logical.

There is no comparison between God Whose understanding is infinite and as you put it a "...dumb kid in 3rd grade science class making a universe by mixing chemicals...." This is like comparing the total mass of a quark with the total mass of multiuniverses. God is All-powerful, a dumb, 3rd grade kid in science class is not.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

Time is linked to matter. Einsteins's General Theory of Relativity postulates this principle.

The origin of the universe and life is a very complicated matter that required an adequate cause. [b]Things that are less complicated require intelligent design (as opposed to random, chance occurence). There is no reason to believe that the universe, life, natural laws, etc. with their level of complication could have come into being without adequate, intelligent, design/cause. It is not logical.

There is no comparison between God Whose understanding is infinite and as you put it a "...dumb kid in 3rd grade science class making a universe by mixing chemicals...." This is like comparing the total mass of a quark with the total mass of multiuniverses. God is All-powerful, a dumb, 3rd grade kid in science class is not. [/B]

However Einstein also believed in a unified theory that would explain what we consider random, even though he couldn't achieve this in his time doesn't mean that the logic is flawed or that with the new information that has been discovered since his passing that he couldn't.

However you missed the meaning of the post, you have no proof other than that which the bible tells you that God created everything, the idea that a 3rd grader created the universe fits into your assumption of someone creating the universe like an atom in a giant's toenail. You have as much proof of God creating the universe as I do of the 3rd grader. You have nothing to say that God's knowledge is infinite or even that he is even aware of us, much less that he watches over us. As you said he could have created us with a simple thought which could have been a piece of bad meat that he had for dinner.

All the things that you have used as an example of complex are not self sustaining or self replicating which organic life is which doesn't need the outside force to create. All it needs is energy and elements (simply put), after all that is all we are is about $10 worth of chemicals and water. Then again I guess you think that the primordial soup was a complex thing. 😉

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
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Time is linked to matter. Einsteins's General Theory of Relativity postulates this principle.
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😆 What? You obviously do not understand Relativity. Time is linked to space, not matter. Energy is linked (as you call it) to matter.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
😆 What? You obviously do not understand Relativity. Time is linked to space, not matter. Energy is linked (as you call it) to matter.
So as time increases space increases?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
😆 What? You obviously do not understand Relativity. Time is linked to space, not matter. Energy is linked (as you call it) to matter.

No, time is linked to space and matter.

"Matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move."

--Physicist John Wheeler

Space and time can't exist without matter, matter and space can't exist without time and time and matter can't exist without space according to the theory.

However time is relative to the speed of the matter, matter moving faster will have a slower time than the one that is slower. 😉

It's a shame my protobiont arguement still stands lolz

Originally posted by AngryManatee
It's a shame my protobiont arguement still stands lolz

There is a great, Grand Canyon-size difference between life and life properties.

Protobionts have life characteristics but they are not classified as living. So, you are right your protobiont argument is a shame.

😄

Originally posted by ThePittman
However Einstein also believed in a unified theory that would explain what we consider random, even though he couldn't achieve this in his time doesn't mean that the logic is flawed or that with the new information that has been discovered since his passing that he couldn't.

However you missed the meaning of the post, you have no proof other than that which the bible tells you that God created everything, the idea that a 3rd grader created the universe fits into your assumption of someone creating the universe like an atom in a giant's toenail. You have as much proof of God creating the universe as I do of the 3rd grader. You have nothing to say that God's knowledge is infinite or even that he is even aware of us, much less that he watches over us. As you said he could have created us with a simple thought which could have been a piece of bad meat that he had for dinner.

All the things that you have used as an example of complex are not self sustaining or self replicating which organic life is which doesn't need the outside force to create. All it needs is energy and elements (simply put), after all that is all we are is about $10 worth of chemicals and water. Then again I guess you think that the primordial soup was a complex thing. 😉

First (and with all due respect) I really don't care what Einstein believed. I believe all lot things but what does my belief have to do with the price of tea in China? It does not matter what you believe but what you can substantiate with logic, reason, and strong support, which is why I believe that God is.

Second, you are wrong that I don't have proof that God created everything. I can see proof of God's creative ability all around me, regardless of whether the Bible tells me that God created the Heavens and the earth or not. It does not take a phd in biology or astrophysics to understand that there is way to much evidence for design and order in the universe, so much so that many things can be mathematically determined with utmost precision based on natural laws, probability, and other statistics. I have no assumptions, I base my belief on clear, overwhelming evidence for the Creator. God's knowledge, infinite wisdom, intelligence, and understanding is conspicuously evident in the things that exist. Everything in this universe appears to function with purpose, design, and according to predictable, empirically testable laws. If your loved one created a building with Lego blocks would you conclude that random, chance process caused by an explosion produced that structure? Only a fool would reason that something like that came about on its own. That mode of thinking is highly contradictory and shamefully illogical. Yet this is how many people think with regard to the origin of the universe and life (which is exceedingly more complex).

I don't recall saying that God could have created anything with a single thought. If I did say those exact words then I will eat crow. Until such time please, don't put words in my mouth. Thank you. 😄

All the examples that I provided are not self-sustaining and self-replicating? This is precisely my point (follow closely ThePittman): if those non, self-sustaining, non, self-replicating examples at the very minimum required a designer, what makes you believe that the universe and life which are exceedingly more complicated just came about randomly, without a Designer? Your logic is faulty, flawed, erroneous, and fallacious.

Oh, protobionts are not living organisms, they simply exhibit life properties. But that is not life. Besides, producing something in a controlled environment under predertermined circumstnaces with the aid of highly educated scientists does not remotely mimic or simulate the early earth condionts (sorry, but these are the facts).

So, in conclusion, life (all life) required an intelligent Creator (I just supported this in the paragraph directly above this one with regard to protobionts requiring the help of intelligent scientists).

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
First (and with all due respect) I really don't care what Einstein [B]believed. I believe all lot things but what does my belief have to do with the price of tea in China? It does not matter what you believe but what you can substantiate with logic, reason, and strong support, which is why I believe that God is.

Second, you are wrong that I don't have proof that God created everything. I can see proof of God's creative ability all around me, regardless of whether the Bible tells me that God created the Heavens and the earth or not. It does not take a phd in biology or astrophysics to understand that there is way to much evidence for design and order in the universe, so much so that many things can be mathematically determined with utmost precision based on natural laws, probability, and other statistics. I have no assumptions, I base my belief on clear, overwhelming evidence for the Creator. God's knowledge, infinite wisdom, intelligence, and understanding is conspicuously evident in the things that exist. Everything in this universe appears to function with purpose, design, and according to predictable, empirically testable laws. If your loved one created a building with Lego blocks would you conclude that random, chance process caused by an explosion produced that structure? Only a fool would reason that something like that came about on its own. That mode of thinking is highly contradictory and shamefully illogical. Yet this is how many people think with regard to the origin of the universe and life (which is exceedingly more complex).

I don't recall saying that God could have created anything with a single thought. If I did say those exact words then I will eat crow. Until such time please, don't put words in my mouth. Thank you. 😄

All the examples that I provided are not self-sustaining and self-replicating? This is precisely my point (follow closely ThePittman): if those non, self-sustaining, non, self-replicating examples at the very minimum required a designer, what makes you believe that the universe and life which are exceedingly more complicated just came about randomly, without a Designer? Your logic is faulty, flawed, erroneous, and fallacious.

Oh, protobionts are not living organisms, they simply exhibit life properties. But that is not life. Besides, producing something in a controlled environment under predertermined circumstnaces with the aid of highly educated scientists does not remotely mimic or simulate the early earth condionts (sorry, but these are the facts).

So, in conclusion, life (all life) required an intelligent Creator (I just supported this in the paragraph directly above this one with regard to protobionts requiring the help of intelligent scientists). [/B]

Man I have to ask are you a fish out of water because you like to flop back and forth. 😉 There is no proof that God created everything so please don't say there is. It is your opinion because you can not conceive that things can happen by random. You can not accept that it is possible, I can except that it may be possible that something created this universe but not the god that is described in the bible, that just is not so and is nothing but a feel good fairy tale.

Originally posted by ThePittman
However time is relative to the speed of the matter, matter moving faster will have a slower time than the one that is slower. 😉
Because the faster through space, the faster through time?

Originally posted by lord xyz
Because the faster through space, the faster through time?
No, the faster matter travels the slower time moves for that object. So basically if I was to travel just below light speed for a year and come back to Earth I would have only aged a year but everyone on Earth would have aged hundreds of years.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There is a great, Grand Canyon-size difference between life and life [B]properties.

Protobionts have life characteristics but they are not classified as living. So, you are right your protobiont argument is a shame.

😄 [/B]

Originally posted by AngryManatee
You were never asking for a living organism. You were asking for something complex that came about by "chance," as you so stated. And yes, generation of organic molecules from inorganic substance has been shown to be probable, as I so stated in my previous post. The fact that something such as a protobiont can spontaneously self-assemble is very supportive of the idea of organic molecules, not to mention organisms, originated from inorganic substance, but you weren't asking for that. You only asked for something complex, which I have shown. That is all.

My arguement still stands

Originally posted by AngryManatee
My arguement still stands

Protobionts are not living organisms, they simply exhibit some life properties. But that is not life. Besides, producing something in a controlled environment under predetermined circumstances with the aid of highly educated scientists does not remotely mimic or simulate the early earth conditions (sorry, but these are the facts). So if the supposed precursors of prokaryotic cells (i.e. protobionts) required at the very minimum and intelligent scientist who is trained and educated in scientific practice and principles, and is versed in how to perform scientific research in accordance with the scientific method and other scientific process was necessary to orchestrate the formation of protobionts by guiding, overseeing, and orchestrating the process, what makes you believe that life (complicated life) could have come about from a random, undirected, unmanaged, unguided, unintelligent, chance occurrence? (I don't understand why you cannot see the illogic in this line of thinking). The simplest protobionts could not emerge without the aid of an intelligent, highly educated scientist yet you believe that complicated life, with all of its complexity and variety, intelligence, order, design, apparent purpose, and ingenuity just fortuitously came about with just the right circumstances to support and perpetuate all of them? There isn't this amount of luck and fortuity in the universe. Scientists have done calculations that determine likelihood of an event occurring. Based on those findings they have determined that life could not have emerged by chance. (Sorry, but these are the facts).

If you doubt anything that I have written AngryManatee then do a search on the internet for yourself to find out what scientists have to say about the possibility of life emerging by chance. You will be astonished.

😄