Originally posted by Oliver North
Jugger - what historical sources are you using outside of the Bible itself?
There have been several historical finds that show many things the Bible describes have taken place such as Herod ordering the killing of babies to prevent Jesus' birth, Jesus' following, Him traveling and doing good deeds, the mass conversion to Christianity after his death and "rising", the killing of his followers ect. I'll look for links tho since i'm not positive what else there is
Here's a few links i found on Google:
http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4223639/k.567/Ancient_Evidence_for_Jesus_from_NonChristian_Sources.htm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-a-evans/archaeological-evidence-for-jesus_b_1370995.html
http://dmc.members.sonic.net/sentinel/naij3.html
http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Jesus-apparently-existed-outside-of-the-bible
Former Kundalini Yoga Teacher Turns to Christianity - Part 1/8
Mike Shreve was a follower of Yogi Bhajan and a teacher of Kundalini Yoga at four universities in the Tampa, Florida area (USA). He spent his days in solitude, seeking the truth through various meditation, yoga and new age practices. He had about 400 students and was also running a yoga ashram. Ever-increasing mystical experiences convinced him that he was evolving in a genuine experience of true spirituality and a revelation of Ultimate Reality. His all-consuming passion was to attain God-consciousness. Then an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ changed everything--dramatically--and the thirst of his soul was quenched. If you are searching for God and seeking truth, you need to listen to this presentation. God's love is evident in the words that are spoken.
YouTube video
Bishop Samuel Vagalas Kanco ~ A Former African Witch Doctor
This is a very old interview: It's probably 4 years old. It was found on Govinda Tidball's website. Pat Holliday is the author of a book based upon the testimony of Bishop Samuel Vagalas Kanco. Zeph Daniel interviewed Bishop Kanco way back then.
"The Witch Doctor and The Man City Under The Sea" ~ by Pat Holliday, Ph.D.
YouTube video
Testimony of A Former Witch Doctor From Nigeria-Emmanuel Amos
YouTube video
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453177
Warlocks, wizards, mediums, shamans, and witches are REAL. Their power comes form satan and his angels (demons).
Voodoo, santeria, and hoodoo is REAL.
The spirit realm is REAL. Demons are REAL. Ouja boards are REAL, AVOID THEM. DO NOT contact demons through seances or any occult activity like tarot card readings, calling psychics, palm readings, charms, crystals, horoscopes, yoga, chanting yogic mantras, numerology, and the like.
Engaging in any of the above practices gives the devil and his demons PLACE (i.e. legal right in the eyes of God) to steal, kill, destroy, and oppress YOU and YOUR FAMILY.
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
The Truth (i.e. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Son of the Living God, the Word made flesh) is easy to handle. Come to Jesus all you who labor and are heavy laden, and He will give you rest.
Take His yoke upon you and learn from Him, for He is gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
In Jesus Christ you can have, enjoy, and experience eternal love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, and eternal life.
http://www.heavenvisit.com/Retha_McPherson.php
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[B]Former Kundalini Yoga Teacher Turns to Christianity - Part 1/8
Mike Shreve was a follower of Yogi Bhajan and a teacher of Kundalini Yoga at four universities in the Tampa, Florida area (USA). He spent his days in solitude, seeking the truth through various meditation, yoga and new age practices. He had about 400 students and was also running a yoga ashram. Ever-increasing mystical experiences convinced him that he was evolving in a genuine experience of true spirituality and a revelation of Ultimate Reality. His all-consuming passion was to attain God-consciousness. Then an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ changed everything--dramatically--and the thirst of his soul was quenched. If you are searching for God and seeking truth, you need to listen to this presentation. God's love is evident in the words that are spoken.
YouTube video
Bishop Samuel Vagalas Kanco ~ A Former African Witch DoctorThis is a very old interview: It's probably 4 years old. It was found on Govinda Tidball's website. Pat Holliday is the author of a book based upon the testimony of Bishop Samuel Vagalas Kanco. Zeph Daniel interviewed Bishop Kanco way back then.
"The Witch Doctor and The Man City Under The Sea" ~ by Pat Holliday, Ph.D.
YouTube video
Testimony of A Former Witch Doctor From Nigeria-Emmanuel Amos
YouTube videohttp://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453177
Warlocks, wizards, mediums, shamans, and witches are REAL. Their power comes form satan and his angels (demons).
Voodoo, santeria, and hoodoo is REAL.
The spirit realm is REAL. Demons are REAL. Ouja boards are REAL, AVOID THEM. DO NOT contact demons through seances or any occult activity like tarot card readings, calling psychics, palm readings, charms, crystals, horoscopes, yoga, chanting yogic mantras, numerology, and the like.
Engaging in any of the above practices gives the devil and his demons PLACE (i.e. legal right in the eyes of God) to steal, kill, destroy, and oppress YOU and YOUR FAMILY.
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube videoThe Truth (i.e. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Son of the Living God, the Word made flesh) is easy to handle. Come to Jesus all you who labor and are heavy laden, and He will give you rest.
Take His yoke upon you and learn from Him, for He is gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
In Jesus Christ you can have, enjoy, and experience eternal love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, and eternal life.http://www.heavenvisit.com/Retha_McPherson.php
YouTube video
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Originally posted by juggerman
There have been several historical finds that show many things the Bible describes have taken place such as Herod ordering the killing of babies to prevent Jesus' birth, Jesus' following, Him traveling and doing good deeds, the mass conversion to Christianity after his death and "rising", the killing of his followers ect. I'll look for links tho since i'm not positive what else there is
You don't find it odd that the only things that can be proven from the Bible are the things that don't involve God's supernatural physics-defying "divine power"? Post proof of this "divine power" and then you will have a case.
Originally posted by Lestov16
You don't find it odd that the only things that can be proven from the Bible are the things that don't involve God's supernatural physics-defying "divine power"? Post proof of this "divine power" and then you will have a case.
You wouldn't consider Jesus healing the sick, feeding thousands, and raising the dead divine power? You're stacking the deck pretty high i think
Originally posted by Lestov16
You don't find it odd that the only things that can be proven from the Bible are the things that don't involve God's supernatural physics-defying "divine power"? Post proof of this "divine power" and then you will have a case.
The human cell in all of its complexity, the sophisticated human eye, the heart, the brain, nerves, the earth's atmosphere, plants, multiplied by all of the life that exists and the laws that govern time, space, and matter, mathematics, physics, and the energy, power, intelligence, and wisdom that it took to bring of all this into existence--declares the glory of God.
Jeremiah 10:12
12 He has made the earth by His power,
He has established the world by His wisdom,
And has stretched out the heavens at His discretion.
Jeremiah 32:17
17 ‘Ah, Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing too hard for You.
Psalm 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.
Former Kundalini Yoga Teacher Turns to Christianity - Part 1/8
Mike Shreve was a follower of Yogi Bhajan and a teacher of Kundalini Yoga at four universities in the Tampa, Florida area (USA). He spent his days in solitude, seeking the truth through various meditation, yoga and new age practices. He had about 400 students and was also running a yoga ashram. Ever-increasing mystical experiences convinced him that he was evolving in a genuine experience of true spirituality and a revelation of Ultimate Reality. His all-consuming passion was to attain God-consciousness. Then an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ changed everything--dramatically--and the thirst of his soul was quenched. If you are searching for God and seeking truth, you need to listen to this presentation. God's love is evident in the words that are spoken.
YouTube video
Bishop Samuel Vagalas Kanco ~ A Former African Witch Doctor
This is a very old interview: It's probably 4 years old. It was found on Govinda Tidball's website. Pat Holliday is the author of a book based upon the testimony of Bishop Samuel Vagalas Kanco. Zeph Daniel interviewed Bishop Kanco way back then.
"The Witch Doctor and The Man City Under The Sea" ~ by Pat Holliday, Ph.D.
YouTube video
Testimony of A Former Witch Doctor From Nigeria-Emmanuel Amos
YouTube video
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453177
Warlocks, wizards, mediums, shamans, and witches are REAL. Their power comes form satan and his angels (demons).
Voodoo, santeria, and hoodoo is REAL.
The spirit realm is REAL. Demons are REAL. Ouja boards are REAL, AVOID THEM. DO NOT contact demons through seances or any occult activity like tarot card readings, calling psychics, palm readings, charms, crystals, horoscopes, yoga, chanting yogic mantras, numerology, and the like.
Engaging in any of the above practices gives the devil and his demons PLACE (i.e. legal right in the eyes of God) to steal, kill, destroy, and oppress YOU and YOUR FAMILY.
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
The Truth (i.e. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Son of the Living God, the Word made flesh) is easy to handle. Come to Jesus all you who labor and are heavy laden, and He will give you rest.
Take His yoke upon you and learn from Him, for He is gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
In Jesus Christ you can have, enjoy, and experience eternal love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, and eternal life.
http://www.heavenvisit.com/Retha_McPherson.php
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
Originally posted by juggerman
There have been several historical finds that show many things the Bible describes have taken place such as Herod ordering the killing of babies to prevent Jesus' birth, Jesus' following, Him traveling and doing good deeds, the mass conversion to Christianity after his death and "rising", the killing of his followers ect. I'll look for links tho since i'm not positive what else there is
actually, I meant more where are you getting your understanding of Roman history and society? I'll leave Jesus to people who know more about that specifically, however, it seems your understanding of that period of history is a bit off, or at least, you have confused the timeline (the one off the top of my head is where you are insinuating some broad persecution of Christians within or immediately following the death of Christ, whereas in reality, Christians themselves didn't appear until 50 years later, and the wide scale persecution of them at least another 100: Like I said, it seems like your timeline is off).
Originally posted by juggerman
Here's a few links i found on Google:
http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4223639/k.567/Ancient_Evidence_for_Jesus_from_NonChristian_Sources.htmhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-a-evans/archaeological-evidence-for-jesus_b_1370995.html
http://dmc.members.sonic.net/sentinel/naij3.html
http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Jesus-apparently-existed-outside-of-the-bible
I realize this is a really common tactic on internet forums, but did you really just post the top results on google related to your point?
I only asked because I was actually interested in where you had gotten your information. Tracing the origins of beliefs and facts is a huge interest of mine. I'm actually way less interested in debating if what you know is true than I am in trying to find out where your information comes from.
Like, in terms of Roman history, did you take courses? are you just interested in it in your personal life? does your knowledge of it come through your interest in religion or have you studied their culture independent of the life of Jesus? Is your education formal or did you get it mostly from the internet? Are the sources you posted ones that you found convincing and elaborative, or were they just the first you found, and if so, which other work did you find convincing or elaborative?
Originally posted by juggerman
You wouldn't consider Jesus healing the sick, feeding thousands, and raising the dead divine power? You're stacking the deck pretty high i think
for one, my understanding of the history is that such events do not have the same type of historical evidence as does something like the existence of Jesus, however, in either case, you have to admit "I saw something" is probably the weakest form of evidence there is, and further (I'm not sure how into history you are, so I apologize if this is old hat) historians attempt to avoid drawing conclusions from such anecdotal sources.
Like, for instance, there are such histories from all religious traditions, surely you don't then believe that all religious figures from Sidhartha to Mohammed actually performed the miracles they are said to have? Or have I mistaken you for a Christian when you are really a Universalist or some other thing?
I didn't mean to imply that they were percecuted as soon as jesus died at all. I was just coming off the top of my head with things i knew were stated to have happened in the Bible and were proven thru historical findings.
Yeah i posted from google and said as much. I thought that's what you were asking for. My mistake. I'll brb to fully respond in about 10
Originally posted by Lestov16
You didn't post a non-biblical source proving any of that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel
Strobel received a journalism degree from University of Missouri and a Master of Studies in Law degree from Yale Law School, becoming a journalist for The Chicago Tribune and other newspapers for 14 years.
He states that he was an atheist and began investigating the Biblical claims about Christ after his wife's conversion. As a result of the evidence he discovered in his investigation, he became a Christian.
Originally posted by juggerman
That doesn't really explain how you could be mistaken that a man could heal with a touch. Or raise a dead man from his grave that has been dead for days. I'm not seeing how that's the same at all honestly. If there's a man that's dead/dying abd this is confirmed my multiple sources and then suddenly he is alive/healed by a mere touch or word.
If this standard applies to Christianity then it applies to every other religion.
Originally posted by juggerman
I agree but this wasn't one time. Or even a handful of times. This was things happening continually over years. It would be very hard to keep that up when most of the people around you are actively looking to poke holes in your story.
Its very easy to keep believing things you believe.
Originally posted by juggerman
There were thousands that witnessed his spur of the moment miracles. I find it hard to believe that no one noticed he was tricking them.
We have no reliable sources for the details of any of the miracles.
Let's take Barack Obama, a verified historical figure. I can present you with a story about him fighting a giant cobra with a sword in front of hundreds of people. Do you think Barack Obama fought a giant cobra? Are those people lying? Could they all have been tricked?
Originally posted by juggerman
True but again these people aren't claiming to have seen these things firsthand. They just believe strongly that they happened. In this case there were multiple people willing to die for things they knew/felt was what they actually saw. Big difference imo
Again, if being willing to die for something makes it true then just about every religion is true. Do you believe in the divine powers of Buddah?
Originally posted by Oliver North
Like, in terms of Roman history, did you take courses? are you just interested in it in your personal life? does your knowledge of it come through your interest in religion or have you studied their culture independent of the life of Jesus? Is your education formal or did you get it mostly from the internet? Are the sources you posted ones that you found convincing and elaborative, or were they just the first you found, and if so, which other work did you find convincing or elaborative?for one, my understanding of the history is that such events do not have the same type of historical evidence as does something like the existence of Jesus, however, in either case, you have to admit "I saw something" is probably the weakest form of evidence there is, and further (I'm not sure how into history you are, so I apologize if this is old hat) historians attempt to avoid drawing conclusions from such anecdotal sources.
Like, for instance, there are such histories from all religious traditions, surely you don't then believe that all religious figures from Sidhartha to Mohammed actually performed the miracles they are said to have? Or have I mistaken you for a Christian when you are really a Universalist or some other thing?
Sorry for the delay, work and such. Have you ever read Lee Strobel's Case for Christ? A friend of mine suggested to me a few years back and it points out several points that are contested in the New Testament and, most specifically, Jesus himself. I know there are issues some have pointed out with the way he went about some things but the facts show there is plenty of proof that has been found that supports the stories. That's what 1st got me interested in looking at stuff like this. By that i meant actual evidence of Jesus and his works. I've loved Greek and Roman Mythology since i was a child and have always been interested in the histroy there. Tho admittedly i'm not super educated in that area. More like a passing fancy honestly. To be fair i couldn't off handedly spout out dates, places and names as well as some might but i do have troves of random facts i've managed to hang on to. So what i do say may not be as detailed as you'd hope and for that i apologise.
I like to look at it kinda like a court case, which is probably why TCFC appealed to me. "I saw something" is indeed a very weak stance but "I saw something, so did my family, friends, neighbors, and thousands of others" is a much stronger case to me.
As was my earlier stance in regards to "magic"; I don't personally believe in these other religious figures but i don't know enough about them to say whether they really existed/did what they said they did or not. I have more information on Jesus and therefore i speak on that subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel
Strobel received a journalism degree from University of Missouri and a Master of Studies in Law degree from Yale Law School, becoming a journalist for The Chicago Tribune and other newspapers for 14 years.
He states that he was an atheist and began investigating the Biblical claims about Christ after his wife's conversion. As a result of the evidence he discovered in his investigation, he became a Christian.
The human cell in all of its complexity, the sophisticated human eye, the heart, the brain, nerves, the earth's atmosphere, plants, multiplied by all of the life that exists and the laws that govern time, space, and matter, mathematics, physics, and the energy, power, intelligence, and wisdom that it took to bring of all this into existence--declares the glory of God.
Jeremiah 10:12
12 He has made the earth by His power,
He has established the world by His wisdom,
And has stretched out the heavens at His discretion.
Jeremiah 32:17
17 ‘Ah, Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing too hard for You.
Psalm 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.
Former Kundalini Yoga Teacher Turns to Christianity - Part 1/8
Mike Shreve was a follower of Yogi Bhajan and a teacher of Kundalini Yoga at four universities in the Tampa, Florida area (USA). He spent his days in solitude, seeking the truth through various meditation, yoga and new age practices. He had about 400 students and was also running a yoga ashram. Ever-increasing mystical experiences convinced him that he was evolving in a genuine experience of true spirituality and a revelation of Ultimate Reality. His all-consuming passion was to attain God-consciousness. Then an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ changed everything--dramatically--and the thirst of his soul was quenched. If you are searching for God and seeking truth, you need to listen to this presentation. God's love is evident in the words that are spoken.
Bishop Samuel Vagalas Kanco ~ A Former African Witch Doctor
This is a very old interview: It's probably 4 years old. It was found on Govinda Tidball's website. Pat Holliday is the author of a book based upon the testimony of Bishop Samuel Vagalas Kanco. Zeph Daniel interviewed Bishop Kanco way back then.
"The Witch Doctor and The Man City Under The Sea" ~ by Pat Holliday, Ph.D.
Testimony of A Former Witch Doctor From Nigeria-Emmanuel Amos
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453177
Warlocks, wizards, mediums, shamans, and witches are REAL. Their power comes form satan and his angels (demons).
Voodoo, santeria, and hoodoo is REAL.
The spirit realm is REAL. Demons are REAL. Ouja boards are REAL, AVOID THEM. DO NOT contact demons through seances or any occult activity like tarot card readings, calling psychics, palm readings, charms, crystals, horoscopes, yoga, chanting yogic mantras, numerology, and the like.
Engaging in any of the above practices gives the devil and his demons PLACE (i.e. legal right in the eyes of God) to steal, kill, destroy, and oppress YOU and YOUR FAMILY.
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
The Truth (i.e. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Son of the Living God, the Word made flesh) is easy to handle. Come to Jesus all you who labor and are heavy laden, and He will give you rest.
Take His yoke upon you and learn from Him, for He is gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
In Jesus Christ you can have, enjoy, and experience eternal love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, and eternal life.
http://www.heavenvisit.com/Retha_McPherson.php
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
YouTube video
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If this standard applies to Christianity then it applies to every other religion.Its very easy to keep believing things you believe.
We have no reliable sources for the details of any of the miracles.
Let's take Barack Obama, a verified historical figure. I can present you with a story about him fighting a giant cobra with a sword in front of hundreds of people. Do you think Barack Obama fought a giant cobra? Are those people lying? Could they all have been tricked?
Again, if being willing to die for something makes it true then just about every religion is true. Do you believe in the divine powers of Buddah?
I'm not so sure. In this we have these men claiming to see these things and then willing to die instead of taking it back. If there are other religions where this happens like that point me to them.
Agreed. But you're missing the point. I'll explain in a minute
We do.
Ok here it is. If you made that claim today people could ask around to find out if it were true. Who else was there? When was it? Where was it? That kind of thing. Eventually it would be found to either be likely or unlikely. At the time of Jesus' acts there were plenty of people named that saw, were involved in or what have you in whatever miracles were claimed. They could have easily enough shown that such and such event never happened or that they weren't there. Like if i falsely claimed i saved your life and became popular for it, you are more than able to step up and tell the truth. Or i said i did something in huge in Miami that thousands witnessed and then you went to Miami and couldn't find a soul that knew what i was talking about then you could show that i was lying. Many people wanted Jesus to stop and wanted him forgotten but none could show he wasn't who he said he was and didn't do what he said he did.
Honestly the apostles would have had to be in on some of the lies since sometimes only they saw it, like Jesus walking on water. I find it hard to believe that so many would willingly go to their deaths because of a lie(or several) when all they had to do was come clear to save themselves.
Originally posted by juggerman
I'm not so sure. In this we have these men claiming to see these things and then willing to die instead of taking it back. If there are other religions where this happens like that point me to them.
to be fair, Buddhists immolate themselves so often in protest that we no longer even cover it in the west