Can you handle the Truth?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Now, prove that Adam and Eve did not have free will based on my definition (or based on your definition).

Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
They follow God’s laws and get rewarded or don’t and go to Hell and suffer, external force. Now add in that God already knows that the choice that they will make before he creates them they do not have free will, much like a robot that is pre-programmed to follow a path. The robot doesn’t know and it makes it decisions but the programmer already knows where it is going to end up.

You have not proved that Adam and Eve did not have a free will. Next.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You have not proved that Adam and Eve did not have a free will. Next.

Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
Yes I did, you asked for my definition of free will which I have provided and showed you and example and reason which is supported by the definition and example given. Please explain how if God knows that Adam will go from point A to point B and will never reach point C how that is free will

Free will is simply the power to make a choice. Did Adam and Eve have this faculty yes or no?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Free will is simply the power to make a choice. Did Adam and Eve have this faculty yes or no?

Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
Free will not simply the ability to make a choice and now who is trying to trap who, but I will answer your question. Did they have the ability to make a choice yes, but God already knew that choice. He already knew he would eat the apple, he already knew that they would be thrown out of the garden and so forth.

Oh, let it go. You are arguing a myth with a child. 🙄

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Oh, let it go. You are arguing a myth with a child. 🙄

Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
But its fun 😕

Ya, to a point. But you are having fun, then don't let me stop you. 😄 😉

Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
Free will not simply the ability to make a choice and now who is trying to trap who, but I will answer your question. Did they have the ability to make a choice yes, but God already knew that choice. He already knew he would eat the apple, he already knew that they would be thrown out of the garden and so forth.

You have issues. I asked you a pertinent question, point-blank, and in reference to our discussion and your intelligent response is that I am trying to trap you? Dude you are paranoid about nothing.

Anyhoo, I rest my case. That is all I wanted Robtard to do. Adam and Eve did have a free will.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You have issues. I asked you a pertinent question, point-blank, and in reference to our discussion and your intelligent response is that I am trying to trap you? Dude you are paranoid about nothing.

Anyhoo, I rest my case. That is all I wanted Robtard to do. Adam and Eve [B]did have a free will. [/B]

You are the one on countless times say you don’t respond because people are trying to trap you and I have issues. So please enlighten me why I have issues, I’m not the one that is on the forum posting countless of threads trying to convert the KMC members and ranting on about I’m always right.

I like how you bold something out of context yet again to try and prove your point, as the rest of the sentence states why it is not free will in the eye of God because he already knows their choice. If I held a gun to your head and told you to pick between your wife and kid which one I would kill is that free will?

Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
😆

You are the one on countless times say you don’t respond because people are trying to trap you and I have issues. So please enlighten me why I have issues, I’m not the one that is on the forum posting countless of threads trying to convert the KMC members and ranting on about I’m always right.

I like how you bold something out of context yet again to try and prove your point, as the rest of the sentence states why it is not free will in the eye of God because he already knows their choice. If I held a gun to your head and told you to pick between your wife and kid which one I would kill is that free will?

But God did not do that to Adam and Eve. They had a free will and had they used it wisely they would have lived their lives in love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, gentleness, goodness, and self-control. They would have continued to be blessed throughout eternity. Your illustration is a poor one at best (sorry if that offends you) because God did not tell Adam or Eve,

"Eat from the Tree or die."

God did not put Adam or Eve under any type of pressure or duress in relation to His will. This would have been a better example of God's will in contrast to your example.

"Son or daughter, your mother and I are going out to dinner. You two may freely eat from any fruit in the fruit bowl (and there are many different kinds). But of the fruit on top of the refrigerator you may not eat of it, for in the day you two eat of it you shall surely get your butts whipped."

Question: did the son and daughter have a choice in my illustration? Yes? Yes. So then they have a free will right? Right. There wasn't any pressure or constraint placed on them to disobey correct? Correct. Even if they were tempted by a house guest, they still have the power to say no to drugs (I mean to eating the forbidden fruit).

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But God did not do that to Adam and Eve. They had a free will and had they used it wisely they would have lived their lives in love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, gentleness, goodness, and self-control. They would have continued to be blessed throughout eternity. Your illustration is a poor one at best (sorry if that offends you) because God did not tell Adam or Eve,

[B]"Eat from the Tree or die."

God did not put Adam or Eve under any type of pressure or duress in relation to His will. This would have been a better example of God's will in contrast to your example.

"Son or daughter, your mother and I are going out to dinner. You two may freely eat from any fruit in the fruit bowl (and there are many different kinds). But of the fruit on top of the refrigerator you may not eat of it, for in the day you two eat of it you shall surely get your butts whipped."

Question: did the son and daughter have a choice in my illustration? Yes? Yes. So then they have a free will right? Right. There wasn't any pressure or constraint placed on them to disobey correct? Correct. Even if they were tempted by a house guest, they still have the power to say no to drugs (I mean to eating the forbidden fruit). [/B]

Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
Wrong, what does it mean to be a sinner in the eyes of God?

A sinner is any person who is not presently born again (it is a designation).

But I gotta run for now so I am signing off.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Free will is simply the power to make a choice. Did Adam and Eve have this faculty yes or no?

No. Adam and Eve may have believed that they had the ability to choose, but their choices were already determined. Therefore, they did not have free will, only the semblance thereof.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No. Adam and Eve may have believed that they had the ability to choose, but their choices were already determined. Therefore, they did not have free will, only the semblance thereof.

Substantiate that Adam and Eve's choices were already determined. You have failed to do this.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But God did not do that to Adam and Eve. They had a free will and had they used it wisely they would have lived their lives in love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, gentleness, goodness, and self-control. They would have continued to be blessed throughout eternity. Your illustration is a poor one at best (sorry if that offends you) because God did not tell Adam or Eve,

[B]"Eat from the Tree or die."

God did not put Adam or Eve under any type of pressure or duress in relation to His will. This would have been a better example of God's will in contrast to your example.

"Son or daughter, your mother and I are going out to dinner. You two may freely eat from any fruit in the fruit bowl (and there are many different kinds). But of the fruit on top of the refrigerator you may not eat of it, for in the day you two eat of it you shall surely get your butts whipped."

Question: did the son and daughter have a choice in my illustration? Yes? Yes. So then they have a free will right? Right. There wasn't any pressure or constraint placed on them to disobey correct? Correct. Even if they were tempted by a house guest, they still have the power to say no to drugs (I mean to eating the forbidden fruit). [/B]

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Substantiate that[B] Adam and Eve's choices were already determined. You have failed to do this. [/B]

God knew what would happen, because he is omniscient. Adam and Eve (and the rest of humanity to follow) doesn't know the future, because god wasn't nice enough to give us his magic powers. Even if there is no free will, we must treat each other like there is, otherwise we wouldn't be able to punish criminals, because that was just their fate, and we wouldn't be able to praise accomplishments for the same reason.
I personally believe in free will since I don't believe in a God that would take that away from me.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Substantiate that[B] Adam and Eve's choices were already determined. You have failed to do this. [/B]

By your own admission, the actions of Adam and Eve were foreknown by God:

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[B]1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

Based on these Scriptures it is clear that God is omniscient (i.e. all-knowing) and omnipotent (i.e. all-powerful). [/B]

For the choices of Adam and Eve to be foreknown by God, they must be fixed and determined.

Originally posted by Jbill311
God knew what would happen, because he is omniscient.

If God knows whats going to happen in the future, then the future can only happen ONE WAY.

That means all other possibilities are non-existant, therefore the future is fixed.

If the future is fixed meaning it will ONLY HAPPEN ONE WAY, then there is NO CHOICE involved.

Choices mean you have OPTIONS, it means you can select from a range of possibilities....do you agree or disagree?

Free Will is the ability to make Choices..do you agree or disagree?

If the future can only happen ONE WAY, then there are NO OTHER OPTIONS, then there is no choice involved, because all events will only occur one way, fixed, with no other possibility available.

A foretold, fixed, and definate future nullifies the existance of free will.

Originally posted by Jbill311
Adam and Eve (and the rest of humanity to follow) doesn't know the future, because god wasn't nice enough to give us his magic powers.

First of all, I thought God forbid magic.

Secondly, why should humanity have to suffer for what Adam and Eve did ?

Third, if you can tell the future, then how can you also have free will ?

Originally posted by Jbill311
Even if there is no free will, we must treat each other like there is, otherwise we wouldn't be able to punish criminals, because that was just their fate, and we wouldn't be able to praise accomplishments for the same reason.

So you are open to the possibility that Free Will might not exist ?

I beleive in Free Will, but i do not beleive Will is entirely free. There are consequences for ALL Actions, and there are conditions which affect our choices.

If our will was TRULY FREE, then we would be able to do whatever we want without consideration to our needs and natural desires, on top of that without consequence.

We pay a price for every choice we make. Big or Small, Good or Bad, it doesn't matter. We always pay a price.

Also, our choices are dependent on our needs and desires.

You eat because you HAVE 2, you breathe because YOU HAVE TO, not because you decided to adopt those needs.

You didn't choose to live on Earth, to be born here as the person you are, male or female, black or white or hispanic, gay or straight...you were not given the choice of being who and what you are.

You worked with what you have been given, and all your choices are based on your body's needs and mind's needs.

Originally posted by Jbill311
I personally believe in free will since I don't believe in a God that would take that away from me.

I don't beleive in a God who is a person. I beleive in God who is an entity, the embodyment of this universe and everything in it.

The fact that God knows what is going to happen, what decisions are we going to make, doesn't mean he causes, or "programs" our decisions, or us.

He respects our free will above all things. And he wants to freely love and obbey him.

The free will given to us by God is one of our greatest gift. God respect our free will so much, than he even allows us to deny him. He didn't create robots to be programmed to obbey and love him. He wanted human beings capable of making their own decisions even if the make the wrong ones.