God and Evil · Religion Forum

Jim Reaper Lurker

Re: God and Evil

Originally posted by inimalist

My point is this: If God exists, and what he wants us to do is considered evil by any moral interpretation we can imagine, would that not make God an evil spirit?

Yes... He's a malicious prick. Accept on the sabbath day because that's when your male or female slave can rest.

Sado22 Restricted

-bump-

My point is this: If God exists, and what he wants us to do is considered evil by any moral interpretation we can imagine, would that not make God an evil spirit?

i ask myself one question at times and that is this:
if god's knowledge truly is true then will that knowledge change according to our inconsistent ideas of rights and wrongs? if it really is infinte wisdom will it really depend on what we, as fallible human beings whose history repeatedly shows how foolish we can be, think should be right and what should be wrong?
think about how constant has the idea of "good" and "evil" been over the ages? homosexuality was considered wrong well before judeo-christian traditions even came in the picture (the pharoanic egyptians for example). a few hundred years ago homosexual men and women were prosecuted and now even preists are open homosexuals. are we evolved? have we found out what right and wrong is or is this just another peak in our fluctuating beliefs of right and wrong?
if there is anything the world has ever shown us over the passage of centuries it's that our beliefs are inconsistent and shallow, one step away from going to the polar oppositte side when the general consensus shifts. religion often gets the blame for doing so but science is no different. how open to new ideas has science been over the ages? people always point fingers at religion being the source of evil. but religion just happened to be the most powerful marketing campaign back in the day. it was the only one there was next to amassing a huhge army and saying that you are going to "liberate" the other country. but anyone who reads up on religion knows that religion is a human construct and like all human constructs it is abused for power. like always, saying god supported them was the best marketing move to make. but was god really supporting them? no one can say. but there is no stopping people from bending words, rules, books and anything else under the sun to support their own cause.
take feminism for example. late 1800's and early 1900's saw the greatest female minds in history ask the world to give them an equal footing in the world's affairs. and that was considered correct. a working woman was doing the "right" thing. come 1950's and feminism slided and for almost 3 decades the "right" thing to do was being a homemaker for a woman. take the "white man's burden". as for as the colonizers were conscerned they were doing mankind a service. as far the ones being colonized were conscerned was it so?
what would god's stand on the subject be? what would be the right thing to do? if god said "stay in the kitchen" then that would be "good" in 1950's and "evil" today. that is, our perception of right and wrong will be relative to the standards of that time and our own egotistic opinions. take suicide bombers. as far as terrorists are concerned they are the good guys. god's on their side. but as the 95% of muslim community and the rest of the world is concerned, they are "evil".
the problem begins when we start speaking on god's behalf. anti-abortionists are quick to point out that god forbids all kinds of killing, yet pro-abortionists (in the muslim world atleast) will side passages from the same book that say that the feotus doesn't have life in the initial few weeks and hence is not killing.
judging god as good or evil is besides the point really. no one's spoken to him to date, no one knows what he thinks and no one can truly even fathom what he is. inconsistencies and rifts between us and him arise only when people begin talking on his behalf and forget that their highly overrated notions of good and evil are subjective, inconsistent and change over time....sometimes going full circles to the opposite end. whose to say, maybe 20 years from now homosexuality might be banned again, feminism might fade away again, slavery might become the in-thing again while abortion might become an offense again......what then will your stand on god be? will he be good or will he be evil?
i think the one most overlooked fact of this world is that god is virtually powerless here. i don't mean this in a blasphemous way but fact of the matter is that we judge what good and evil is, those of us who are in a position to sway the masses and influence opinions. not god. god was never even an issue. he's just the most successful promotion trick to get people flocking under your banner and not the other guy's.

my question to you then is: do you think you'd call him evil 100 years ago? what about 200? 500?

~Sado

Grand-Moff-Gav Senior Member

God's law is eternal, true and unchanging.

Our laws are finite and based on ever changing understandings and ideas.

Bardock42 Junior Member

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
God's law is eternal, true and unchanging.
Our laws are finite and based on ever changing understandings and ideas.

So...you are saying he is stubborn and evil?

Grand-Moff-Gav Senior Member

Originally posted by Bardock42
So...you are saying he is stubborn and evil?

I think to a person with an imperfect, limited and finite moral outlook...he could appear so.

Bardock42 Junior Member

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I think to a person with an imperfect, limited and finite moral outlook...he could appear so.

Maybe he appears so to himself, but he enjoys it?

Symmetric Chaos Fractal King

Out of curiosity does the Bible ever come straight out and say that god's power has absolutely no limits?

Sado22 Restricted

God's law is eternal, true and unchanging. Our laws are finite and based on ever changing understandings and ideas.

dont forget that our "laws" are often for our own ambitions, delusional, misdirected and based on limited knowledge and subjectivity.

Maybe he appears so to himself, but he enjoys it?

all species on this planet understand the universe to their best capacity. and we are all integrated with each other but our capacity for understanding varies from creature to creature.
for an example, take human beings and cats. do you think cats do not understand our world or do they understand the world according to their own capacity. to them, tv is that strange box with moving things that they cannot touch, the garbage bin is the place constantly stuffed with food for them, the table is something to mark their territory, the fridge is where the food is. but are these things really that?
same with god and us. our laws and understanding of the universe is still limited and shallow. we don't even understand our own world yet, let alone the universe. based on this limited understanding how can we judge god and hislaws. we are just cats that think that the earth is their little ball.

~Sado

Shakyamunison Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Originally posted by Sado22
dont forget that our "laws" are often for our own ambitions, delusional, misdirected and based on limited knowledge and subjectivity.
all species on this planet understand the universe to their best capacity. and we are all integrated with each other but our capacity for understanding varies from creature to creature.
for an example, take human beings and cats. do you think cats do not understand our world or do they understand the world according to their own capacity. to them, tv is that strange box with moving things that they cannot touch, the garbage bin is the place constantly stuffed with food for them, the table is something to mark their territory, the fridge is where the food is. but are these things really that?
same with god and us. our laws and understanding of the universe is still limited and shallow. we don't even understand our own world yet, let alone the universe. based on this limited understanding how can we judge god and hislaws. we are just cats that think that the earth is their little ball.
~Sado

Your argument is sound, but it has only one problem: we cannot be the cat in your cat/human analogy. The cat knows that the human is real in the same way that a human knows that the cat is real. No one has proved that any god is real. Therefore, all that exists (per your analogy) is the cat.

Symmetric Chaos Fractal King

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Your argument is sound, but it has only one problem: we cannot be the cat in your cat/human analogy. The cat knows that the human is real in the same way that a human knows that the cat is real. No one has proved that any god is real. Therefore, all that exists (per your analogy) is the cat.

The cat is still wrong, though.

How about ants. They have no idea that we exist (they're not capable of it) but we still do all sorts of ineffable things from their point of view.

Shakyamunison Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The cat is still wrong, though.
How about ants. They have no idea that we exist (they're not capable of it) but we still do all sorts of ineffable things from their point of view.

But even an ant can bite us, can we bite god?

inimalist Junior Member

Originally posted by Sado22
based on this limited understanding how can we judge god and hislaws.

easy, by the material consequences they have for people, or by the theological spiritual consequences.

I'd come off a lot of what I said in the first post, but only a little.

Symmetric Chaos Fractal King

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But even an ant can bite us, can we bite god?

Not every ant can bite. And even when they do they have no idea if we felt it or that they were biting us. If we bit god might never know.

Symmetric Chaos Fractal King

Re: God and Evil

Originally posted by inimalist
So, lets make some assumptions that are needed for this to even work:
1) God exists in the classic Christian interpretation
2) The bible is fact
3) There is no reason to question these facts
. . . .
My point is this: If God exists, and what he wants us to do is considered evil by any moral interpretation we can imagine, would that not make God an evil spirit?

Well no, see point one. If you're actually operating on those premises then God clearly is not an evil entity no matter what.

Phantom Zone Junior Member

You can't define or comprehend what God is if hes supposed to be eternal and infinite....its a waste of time really having a discussion about it.

Shakyamunison Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Not every ant can bite. And even when they do they have no idea if we felt it or that they were biting us. If we bit god might never know.

I'm sure that an ant knows that she has bitten something. However, in a way I agree with you. We effect God every day. But the god of the bible is no different then the gods of the Greeks, Pagans or Egyptians. They are man made to reflect things in nature that we do not understand.

inimalist Junior Member

Re: Re: God and Evil

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Well no, see point one. If you're actually operating on those premises then God clearly is not an evil entity no matter what.

by its own definition however

If its own definition causes immeasurable pain and suffering, including eternal suffering, to people for reasons that the most intelligent humans must do intellectual cart-wheels to justify, then I'm pretty confident calling it evil.

Shakyamunison Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You can't define or comprehend what God is if hes supposed to be eternal and infinite....its a waste of time really having a discussion about it.

Then let us establish that god is neither eternal or infinite. Now we can discus this matter. 😄

Symmetric Chaos Fractal King

Re: Re: Re: God and Evil

Originally posted by inimalist
by its own definition however
If its own definition causes immeasurable pain and suffering, including eternal suffering, to people for reasons that the most intelligent humans must do intellectual cart-wheels to justify, then I'm pretty confident calling it evil.

Then you're denying your first supposition . . .

inimalist Junior Member

Re: Re: Re: Re: God and Evil

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Then you're denying your first supposition . . .

ya, I get your point

that was 2 years ago