Originally posted by queeq
Yeah, but there's also the worst part of AOTC: totally unbelievable and downright terrible love scenes. ESB had more romance in those few little moments than AOTC, whic is supposed to hold the most important love story of them all. Besides, their love story continues into ROTS, so it's half and crappy. Why was AOTC important again?
Again, you're way off. They weren't terrible love scenes. Anakin's trying to fall in love with a chick who does and doesn't want to fall in love. I've personally have had these same types of conversations! (Well, not the whole "keep it a secret" part, but a girl I once dated later DID keep a relationship secret with a co-worker, so don't say it's unbelievable!) Some women are always playing the "career" card to avoid the relationship game, and that's what Padme's doing.
Anakin's also a little bent up about Padme for like 10 years, so he probably should have confessed a bit to Obi-Wan about his feelings, instead he wanted to have it both ways, be a Jedi and get the girl. Anakin's a tortured kid with the dreams and all, then not to mention he loses his mother and wipes out those sand people. I don't know anyone who wouldn't break down under such a strain. And you want him to have a snappy-dialogued romance with Padme under such circumstances? THAT would have been way out of place. No, the AOTC love story dialogue was perfect for the movie.
Anakin & Padme have a different kind of romance than Leia & Han. The TESB romance was more of a classic movie type, which is fine, but is mostly cracking dialogue. Anakin & Padme don't have that. There's lots of kinds of romance. I thought it was very funny how Padme dressed down Anakin in the throne room with the queen, and gave him a look that could have cooled off a moose at mating time!
AotC is important because of the choices Anakin and Padme make. They choose to fall for each other, they choose to get married. They could have done neither. And it's not "the most important love story of them all, who the heck ever said that? Lemme guess, PT haters!
Originally posted by exanda kane
There isn't a "PT sucks" crowd outside of the internet forums, no, that's a given. What there is outside of the old internet forums is people that really aren't that interested in the Star Wars prequels, and no, they weren't that disappointed, because they don't care that much about Star Wars.From my experience, it's pretty obvious that the PT was not the phenomenom of it's predecessor's. Even my long term gf who feels utterly indifferent towards the franchise felt the PT lacked the magic.
No. If any other film did the box office the PT did, they'd be the phenomena of the decade! But because it's Star Wars, and a Prequel series where you already know the outcome, it's dismissed.
Ask 10-11 year old kids who say the PT, and they'll say they loved it! Those kids'll grow up to be PT lovers who say the OT sux rox.
Originally posted by chinabing
No. If any other film did the box office the PT did, they'd be the phenomena of the decade! But because it's Star Wars, and a Prequel series where you already know the outcome, it's dismissed.Ask 10-11 year old kids who say the PT, and they'll say they loved it! Those kids'll grow up to be PT lovers who say the OT sux rox.
This is where I disagree with ya, cause quality always rules in the end. I grew up part of the Rocky III & IV generation of the 1980's, as those movies ruled at the box office in their respective years in 1982 & 1985, as Rocky IV still is the highest grossing Rocky movie, and I thought as a kid that Rocky I was a bit slow for me.
Fast forward a couple of years and I watch the Rocky Series again in high school and college and realize how wrong I was about the movies. Sure the sequels are enjoyable in one way or another, but the original Rocky is an utter classic, and parts of Rocky III and ALL of Rocky IV are just pure cheese now to me.
Oh yeah, I loved ROTJ as a 10 year old kid in 1983, and thought ESB was too dark for me back then. Wanna take a guess which SW film I think is the best now?
Quality never fails over the long term, these kids will look at Jar Jar and the AOTC romance, and the horrendous ROTS turn scene and realize the same thing I did about the later Rocky movies, they aren't as good as I thought they were.
Originally posted by chinabing
Again, you're way off. They weren't terrible love scenes. Anakin's trying to fall in love with a chick who does and doesn't want to fall in love. I've personally have had these same types of conversations! (Well, not the whole "keep it a secret" part, but a girl I once dated later DID keep a relationship secret with a co-worker, so don't say it's unbelievable!) Some women are always playing the "career" card to avoid the relationship game, and that's what Padme's doing.Anakin's also a little bent up about Padme for like 10 years, so he probably should have confessed a bit to Obi-Wan about his feelings, instead he wanted to have it both ways, be a Jedi and get the girl. Anakin's a tortured kid with the dreams and all, then not to mention he loses his mother and wipes out those sand people. I don't know anyone who wouldn't break down under such a strain. And you want him to have a snappy-dialogued romance with Padme under such circumstances? THAT would have been way out of place. No, the AOTC love story dialogue was perfect for the movie.
Anakin & Padme have a different kind of romance than Leia & Han. The TESB romance was more of a classic movie type, which is fine, but is mostly cracking dialogue. Anakin & Padme don't have that. There's lots of kinds of romance. I thought it was very funny how Padme dressed down Anakin in the throne room with the queen, and gave him a look that could have cooled off a moose at mating time!
AotC is important because of the choices Anakin and Padme make. They choose to fall for each other, they choose to get married. They could have done neither. And it's not "the most important love story of them all, who the heck ever said that? Lemme guess, PT haters!
POint is: the dialogue in the love scenes are crap. the acting wooden and unbelievable. Apart from the sand-remark there's nothing worthwhile about these scenes. Why the heck does Padme fall in love with a grumpy, whiny brat like Anakin, who does nothing but cry for pity. And did I mention the wooden acting?
So I agree that this is the mjor plot point in AOTC, but the scenes suck so bad that AOTC even fails here.
And if you still disagree: remember the Shaaks!
Originally posted by queeq
POint is: the dialogue in the love scenes are crap. the acting wooden and unbelievable. Apart from the sand-remark there's nothing worthwhile about these scenes. Why the heck does Padme fall in love with a grumpy, whiny brat like Anakin, who does nothing but cry for pity. And did I mention the wooden acting?So I agree that this is the mjor plot point in AOTC, but the scenes suck so bad that AOTC even fails here.
And if you still disagree: remember the Shaaks!
They're acting like a couple of awkward kids, two people who haven't had much to none experience in a personal life. And their acting wasn't half bad. You don't really see awkwardness portrayed much in movies, outside of silly teen comedies. Just because it's awkward doesn't mean the feelings aren't there. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, I think that was the point.
I don't think the scenes stink. When I watch them it feels like I'm watching the crucial moment of the saga, the turning point of the whole series. It feels to me like everything in the galaxy is turning on these two kids falling for each other. I think it's a magic moment.
I loved the shaaks! If Lucas ever builds a Star Wars Theme Park, I want to be able to ride a mechanical Shaak! No wimpy teacups for me.
Originally posted by chewy16
This is where I disagree with ya, cause quality always rules in the end. I grew up part of the Rocky III & IV generation of the 1980's, as those movies ruled at the box office in their respective years in 1982 & 1985, as Rocky IV still is the highest grossing Rocky movie, and I thought as a kid that Rocky I was a bit slow for me.Fast forward a couple of years and I watch the Rocky Series again in high school and college and realize how wrong I was about the movies. Sure the sequels are enjoyable in one way or another, but the original Rocky is an utter classic, and parts of Rocky III and ALL of Rocky IV are just pure cheese now to me.
Oh yeah, I loved ROTJ as a 10 year old kid in 1983, and thought ESB was too dark for me back then. Wanna take a guess which SW film I think is the best now?
Quality never fails over the long term, these kids will look at Jar Jar and the AOTC romance, and the horrendous ROTS turn scene and realize the same thing I did about the later Rocky movies, they aren't as good as I thought they were.
Naaah, if you liked a movie as a kid, chances are you'll always love it. Same if you hated it. I disliked "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" as a kid, I thought Wonka was a child-abuser, the movie gave me nightmares. (Maybe I saw it too young.) There's nothing wrong with kids liking characters that are geared for kids, like R2 and Jar-Jar. (My 10-year-old niece was disappointed there was so little of Jar Jar in Aotc and Rots). But what I liked about JarJar was he was so unique! Even Roger Ebert liked that about TPM, part of why he gave it thumbs up.
"Horrendous turn scene," are ya nuts?
As chewy16 mentioned, yes, the turning scene is underwhelming.
The PT might be enjoyable for a kid, fair enough, when I saw the OT as a kid I loved it; yet when I grew up and developed an interest in film, the OT stood out to me still.
The PT, which I never saw as a kid and never will, only stands out because it's Star Wars, and that legacy has done the PT a world of favours. If this wasn't Star Wars, and yet another overblown poorly written and executed CGI bash, it be forgotten instantly.
Originally posted by chinabing
They're acting like a couple of awkward kids, two people who haven't had much to none experience in a personal life. And their acting wasn't half bad. You don't really see awkwardness portrayed much in movies, outside of silly teen comedies. Just because it's awkward doesn't mean the feelings aren't there. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, I think that was the point.I don't think the scenes stink. When I watch them it feels like I'm watching the crucial moment of the saga, the turning point of the whole series. It feels to me like everything in the galaxy is turning on these two kids falling for each other. I think it's a magic moment.
I loved the shaaks! If Lucas ever builds a Star Wars Theme Park, I want to be able to ride a mechanical Shaak! No wimpy teacups for me.
You should see a doctor...
..or learn how to appreciate movies.
Originally posted by exanda kane
The PT, which I never saw as a kid and never will, only stands out because it's Star Wars, and that legacy has done the PT a world of favours. If this wasn't Star Wars, and yet another overblown poorly written and executed CGI bash, it be forgotten instantly.
I was no kid either.
I was 16, 19, and 22.
Young yes, but not a child.
Already I was writing scripts of my own and watching films like The Shawshank Redemption, Bridge on the River Kwai, and A Clockwork Orange.
Not a critic for the NY times, but I knew then and know now what "good" cinema is.
SW isn't good cinema. Not a one of them.
It is however a sci-fi/fantasy film series. The best of them.
It has stunning visuals, interesting worlds, creatures, and crafts, and most importantly tells an epic fairy tale type of story.
The method and mode it chooses to express these things are 1930's style directing, diaologue, and cinemetography.
Specifically 1930's matinee serials.
And the PT does this just as well as the OT.
The story is different, the actors and characters are (mostly) different, and not like the OT.
But the way the PT was designed, the way it's directed and shot is no different from the OT.
(see my thread on visual storytelling to see just how closely the PT is created to meld and blend within itself and with the OT)
The PT used the same methods and styles of your beloved OT (mine too!).... you just wanted it to be a different story than it is.
Or maybe that style, when applied to a different story doesn't come out as great as your childhood memories make the OT to be.
That's fine, but it doesn't mean that the PT sux.
It means you have issues. 😛
Or that you can't see the forest for the trees, as the PT was made exactly the same as the OT and is a masterwork of completion.
This is lost on you.
You say the PT only stands out because of the legacy of the OT, and that it's helped the PT quite alot.
I say: no. ❌
The PT has all it's own strengths self contained.
The amazing new worlds presented, the first fully realized CG characters that blend with live action actors, the podrace, Coruscant, the battle for Naboo, the duel with Darth Maul, the chase through the city, the tatooine death of Shmi, the battle for geonosis, the duel with Dooku (x2), the battle of Coruscant, the Opera scene, the death of the seperatists, Obi vs. Ani, birth of vader and twins. Almost entirely new music scores.
All of that is self-contained, and maybe mentioned or referred to in the OT, but it's the PT that shows it in all it's effective awesomeness.
The only things that you could say that DIRECTLY depend on the legacy of the OT (not including returning characters of course) are the Tatooine Homestead, and the Tantive IV.
And those scenes work well on their own.
You say the PT was a poorly written and executed CGI bash and I say: PHAIL.
Not the Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, or Revenge of the Sith.
You're thinking of The Mummy Returns or Van Helsing.
Originally posted by chinabing
Naaah, if you liked a movie as a kid, chances are you'll always love it. Same if you hated it. I disliked "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" as a kid, I thought Wonka was a child-abuser, the movie gave me nightmares. (Maybe I saw it too young.) There's nothing wrong with kids liking characters that are geared for kids, like R2 and Jar-Jar. (My 10-year-old niece was disappointed there was so little of Jar Jar in Aotc and Rots). But what I liked about JarJar was he was so unique! Even Roger Ebert liked that about TPM, part of why he gave it thumbs up."Horrendous turn scene," are ya nuts?
I can give you a list of movies that I loved as a kid, that I look at now and think ??????????? Sure there is always some nostalgia to certain movies that I grew up with like The Karate Kid, but as you get older you notice the quality difference.
As a kid growing up I loved Superman II alot more then Superman:The Movie, 20 years later it isn't even close which is the better movie: The Original.
As a kid growing up I loved ROTJ alot more then ESB, 20 years later it isn't even close which is the better movie: ESB.
As a kid growing up I loved Temple of Doom more then Raiders, 20 years later it isn't even close which is the better movie: Raiders.
As for the turn scene, it is horrendous and do you know that Lucas reshot the whole turn in a different context? Just listen to the ROTS commentary and Lucas originally had the turn scene where Palpatine reveals himself and Anakin turns right there on the spot. The original turn was shot as Anakin was doing it solely for the lust for power and because he thought the jedi were betraying him, and the whole Padme dream sequence was just a small reason why.
Lucas then reshot the whole section of the ROTS movie leading up and after the turn. He then solely made it for Anakin turning because he wanted to save Padme, so he then shot Anakin telling Mace and added that in the film, he then shot Anakin/Padme staring across Coruscant at each other, and then shot the turn where Anakin chops off Maces hand, and is now in a sense tricked into the darkside by Palpatine.
The problem was Lucas forgot to reshoot the rest of the movie with the new context of the turn scene, so when Anakin goes to the temple to kill the younglings, you wonder how he got so evil in 10 seconds? Then if you watch the duel, that was shot in the original context as Anakin keeps telling Obiwan, "From my POV, the Jedi are evil!!!" This all had nothing to do with Anakins dream, but Lucas felt it would be more emotional if Anakin turned solely for Padme, but now you essentially have two different movies, one shot in the context of the first turn and the other shot in the context of the second turn scene.
The PT used the same methods and styles of your beloved OT (mine too!).... you just wanted it to be a different story than it is.
Or maybe that style, when applied to a different story doesn't come out as great as your childhood memories make the OT to be.
That's fine, but it doesn't mean that the PT sux.
It means you have issues. 😛
Or that you can't see the forest for the trees, as the PT was made exactly the same as the OT and is a masterwork of completion.
This is lost on you.
You say the PT only stands out because of the legacy of the OT, and that it's helped the PT quite alot.
I say: no. ❌
The PT has all it's own strengths self contained.
]
I think everyone gets caught up in the PT vs OT debate, and I say the only debate in SW fandom is the ANH/ESB vs ROTJ/PT debate, that is the difference in movies.
In many ways ROTJ suffers the same problems that the PT movies do: Long lulls in the movies, forced humor, contrived plot points, and appeasing to kiddies in several characters: Jar Jar, Ewoks, meaning these characters have major roles in the movies.
I am sorry but ANH/ESB are light years better then the other 4 movies, and that has nothing to do with nostalgia cause I love ROTJ just as much, I just see it as an inferior film to its predecessors.
If you get a chance just watch the ANH/ESB again, and you will notice there is a huge difference in the market these movies were made for, they are made for teenagers that adults and children can enjoy. ROTJ/PT movies are made for kids first, and that is why you hear grumbles of 'I like ROTJ, but those damn Ewoks!" or "TPM isn't a bad movie, but that Jar Jar annoys the hell out of me!"
The PT aren't bad movies, neither is ROTJ, but they are nowhere near the quality of ANH/ESB, IMO.