Originally posted by debbiejo
If you mean Elaine Pagels. This is a good author of many books. I believe I also own one, but of a different topic. I think it was "The Origin of Satan : The New Testament Origins of Christianity's Demonization of Jews, Pagans and Heretics"
Very good book DJ!I never got to read it all the way through but it was thought out very well.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Way I look at it, Satan never really did anything at all bad in the bible except to refuse to submit to God.But for you believers out there what is it exactly that Satan ever did that proves he's the evil one?
Satan refused to submit to God.
Satan tricked Adam and Eve into eating the fruit from the tree. Now what is interesting about that situation is that all knowing God knew that A&E basically were going to eat the fruit no matter what. So it was like a set up.
What I find interesting about the fruit eating episode is that Satan told Adam and Eve the truth.
Basically God said WHEN you eat the fruit you will DIE. This is what God said would happen.
What Satan said was:
QUOTE
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."So they ate it and what happened? Did they die? No they did not die. What happened was this:
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves
So here we see that Satan told the truth and God is the one who lied.
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
Now prior to eating the fruit man was very good. It is only when he ate the fruit that he became like ONE OF US. In other words he became EVIL like God. Before eating the fruit he was not EVIL. When he ate he became like God and became evil. Hmmm.
That's a very innaccurate and misguided interpretation of the scripture.
What made man evil was not the knowledge he acquired from the tree, but rather - the act of disobedience against God.
Satan's original plan was not about the acquisition of knowledge or to enlighten man, rather it was to get man to disobey God, fully knowing that this act of disobedience would give death(or himself) dominion over the earth that God had created for man. Thus he only gave a partial truth to Eve, and it is quite apparent that his original intent was to hurt mankind and God's relationship with them, as well as to benefit himself.
Christ's sacrifice gave dominion of the earth back to man again - hence why Christ is referred to not only as the "son of God" but also as the "son of man" within the scriptures. Before Christ's death man had no power over Satan, but with his death we are told that the Devil has no power over us, and that through faith in Christ we can conquer this thing called "death" and "sin" and be offered life through him.
That being stated - all of this is a bit off topic, so it might be a good idea to open up another thread pertaining to this subject.
Originally posted by debbiejo
I know what the popular meaning of these scriptures are. My point is that there are many interpretations not just one.
Understood, but it is still a very innaccurate and misleading one. Adam and Eve did indeed die at some point so Satan lied. Eve actually states that the serpent "deceived" her in Genesis 3 which further illustrates this.
Satan is directly quoted as wanting to harm and not help mankind in the First book of Adam and Eve Chapter 47 verse 7:
But Satan, the hater of all good, thought within himself: "Whereas God has promised salvation to Adam by covenant, and that He would deliver him out of all the hardships that have befallen him -- but has not promised me by covenant, and will not deliver me out of my hardships; no, since He has promised him that He should make him and his descendants live in the kingdom in which I once was -- I will kill Adam."
I definitely don't mind you posting your own interpretation, but just make sure post the entire scripture to support your claim, not just bits and pieces.
Originally posted by debbiejo
But god said "In this very day you shall die"...They didn't die on that day. God lied.
First Book of Adam and Eve Chapter 3Yes, the Word that will again save you when the five and a half days are fulfilled."
But when Adam heard these words from God, and of the great five and a half days, he did not understand the meaning of them.
For Adam was thinking there would be only five and a half days for him until the end of the world.
And Adam cried, and prayed to God to explain it to him.
Then God in his mercy for Adam who was made after His own image and likeness, explained to him, that these were 5,000 and 500 years; and how One would then come and save him and his descendants.
2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Genesis 5:5
So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.
So yeah they did die in a day, at least a day according to God's standards, since Adam lived to be roughly 1000 years old.
I think I own a copy of the "Adam and Eve" book, though it's in storage. 😠
I should go pull it out so I can quote scriptures outside the bible too. It should be interesting. I'll throw in some "Book of Pilate" or something like that. He talks about Jesus actually talking to the dead when he died on the cross. Interesting conversations from hell. 😑
Originally posted by debbiejo
I think I own a copy of the "Adam and Eve" book, though it's in storage. 😠I should go pull it out so I can quote scriptures outside the bible too. It should be interesting. I'll throw in some "Book of Pilate" or something like that. He talks about Jesus actually talking to the dead when he died on the cross. Interesting conversations from hell. 😑
The books of Adam and Eve as well as the book of Enoch were actually included in the original Torah I believe, so technically speaking they are really part of the scriptures. They were taken out in later translations, possibly due to some inconsisties within the translations as well as in the recounting of the stories. They still have much historical merit to them though, as the book of Enoch is actually referenced in the New Testament Letter to Jude.
Originally posted by Goddess KaliBecause all words need to be interpreted. What I am saying to you now requires interpretation... The Bible isn't all fuzzy and hard to understand like you are portraying.
But if the Bible is the Word of God, and it is directed to us all, then why is there a need to intepret anything ?
Originally posted by debbiejoe
The book of Revelations was taken out 3 or 4 times. See how one book can change things?
I'm also starting to see that some of the translations in various texts are worded pretty poorly. Still, I think a lot of the confusion over the Genesis Adam/Eve account can be attributed to the removal of the first and second books of Adam/Eve as well as Enoch from the scriptures.
These books really fill in a lot of gaps between the original creation account and the pre-flood times. I believe they also help portray the God of the OT from a more balanced perspective, one that is not only righteous with his judgements, but also merciful and loving with them.
The story of Adam and Eve has also been sensationalized in the recent century or so with fictional writings such as Milton's Paradise Lost. I haven't read it myself, but from what I've heard about it Satan is portrayed as more of the protaganist in the story as oppossed to being the antagonist, which is probably why many nowadays are sympathetic to his plight.
To the contrary, the Satan in the books of Adam and Eve is definitely a bane to mankind and to God, and this can clearly be seen by his words and actions throughout both books.
Originally posted by FeceMan
There are several ways of interpreting the "you shall die this day."1. Death was spiritual death.
2. A "day" was actually the "period of time" as described by Biblical scholars who support an old Earth.
The strangest part about the whole day/period time thing is that it was actually stated by God what a day could represent within the books of Adam and Eve, and throughout the rest of the scriptures. I don't see why there's so much confusion over it, he makes it pretty clear that time to him is different than it is to us.