I would argue that Revan could defeat Jacen. Luke would know that he'd been in a fight.
According to the LotF series, Jacen is "second only" to Luke in terms of power in the Jedi hierarchy. He is superior to Kyp, Kyle, and everyone else. He nearly defeated a Force phantom of Luke conjured by Lumiya, that was said by both the omnisicient narrator and Jacen himself to be a "fair match for Luke".
Meanwhile, we know that Revan is less than RotS Yoda, due to the RotS novelization confirming that Yoda was "the most powerful foe the darkness had ever known" and Malak confirmed that Revan, as a Jedi, was stronger than Revan as a Sith. So, Yoda > Revan.
Luke would basically, ergo, wipe his ass with Revan. And so would Jacen.
However, I don't think Dooku can defeat either. He'd probably give Jacen a run for his money though.
Not really.
According to the LotF series, Jacen is "second only" to Luke in terms of power in the Jedi hierarchy. He is superior to Kyp, Kyle, and everyone else. He nearly defeated a Force phantom of Luke conjured by Lumiya, that was said by both the omnisicient narrator and Jacen himself to be a "fair match for Luke".
He may have been a “fair match for Luke” but from facts, there is no reason to assume that Revan would not be a fair match for Luke either. The fact alone that he defeated Darth Malak empowered by the entire Rakatan race’s force energies twice in an amnesiatic state, you know, kind of shows some of his power.
Darth “I shatter temples and move moons” Bane feared all the abilities and powers Revan knew- some of the techniques he believed that ”no sith should ever know or use.” If Jacen were able to know defenses for even a fraction of these techniques, I would be surprised, given that the abandoned body of knowledge contained in Malachor was destroyed by the Exile. Other than that, Revan was described as casually calling upon storms to destroy his enemies, and even acknowledged by Traya – who with a flick of her wrist simultaneously pierced through the shields of three veteran Jedi masters – to be a stronger force user.
Meanwhile, we know that Revan is less than RotS Yoda, due to the RotS novelization confirming that Yoda was "the most powerful foe the darkness had ever known"
Stover’s opinion apparently contradicts with Lucas’ own interpretation of his characters. In the movies, Yoda – its painfully obvious – struggles to throw away a block of debris sent by Dooku to crush Kenobi and Anakin. He has to dodge senate pods instead of tossing them away. As such it is appropriate to regard it as hyperbole – a contradiction of Lucas’ views and the trends set forth by pre-existing EU.
and Malak confirmed that Revan, as a Jedi, was stronger than Revan as a Sith.
I suspect Malak’s interpretation may not have been the right one. Even if it were, it contradicts nothing described of Yoda as per Lucas. It contradicts Stover, but in this case Stover contradicts a higher source of canon.
Luke would basically, ergo, wipe his ass with Revan. And so would Jacen.
I’d like to see a bit more proof to back up your argument.
Originally posted by zephiel7
He may have been a “fair match for Luke” but from facts, there is no reason to assume that Revan would not be a fair match for Luke either. The fact alone that he defeated Darth Malak empowered by the entire Rakatan race’s force twice in an amnesiatic state, you know, kind of shows some of his power.Darth “I shatter temples and move moons” Bane feared all the abilities and powers Revan knew- some of the techniques he believed that ”no sith should ever know or use.” If Jacen were able to know defenses for even a fraction of these techniques, I would be surprised, given that abandoned body of knowledge contained in Malachor was destroyed by the Exile. Other than that, Revan was described as casually calling upon storms to destroy his enemies, and even acknowledged by Traya – who was, with a flick of her wrist able to pierce through, simultaneously, the shields of three veteran Jedi masters – to be a stronger force user.
Stover’s opinion apparently contradicts with Lucas’ own interpretation of his characters. In the movies, Yoda – its painfully obvious – struggles to throw away a block of debris sent by Dooku to crush Kenobi and Anakin. He has to dodge senate pods instead of tossing them away. As such I regard it as hyperbole – a contradiction of Lucas’ views and the trends set forth by pre-existing EU.
I suspect Malak’s interpretation may not have been the right one. Even if it were, it contradicts nothing described of Yoda as per Lucas. It contradicts Stover, but in this case Stover contradicts a higher source of canon.
I’d like to see a bit more proof to back up your argument.
Are you saying that Revan/Dooku is a good matchup for NJO Luke/Jacen Solo?
Originally posted by zephiel7
[B]He may have been a “fair match for Luke” but from facts, there is no reason to assume that Revan would not be a fair match for Luke either. The fact alone that he defeated Darth Malak empowered by the entire Rakatan race’s force energies twice in an amnesiatic state, you know, kind of shows some of his power.Darth “I shatter temples and move moons” Bane feared all the abilities and powers Revan knew- some of the techniques he believed that ”no sith should ever know or use.” If Jacen were able to know defenses for even a fraction of these techniques, I would be surprised, given that the abandoned body of knowledge contained in Malachor was destroyed by the Exile. Other than that, Revan was described as casually calling upon storms to destroy his enemies, and even acknowledged by Traya – who with a flick of her wrist simultaneously pierced through the shields of three veteran Jedi masters – to be a stronger force user.
Still clinging to the Revan fanboyism ?
So Darth Bane did "fear" the powers and abilities Revan did know ? Kreia who taught Revan and (at least for Dark Side knowledge) did possess the very same sources (Malachor V) actually calls the abilities of the original ancient Sith frightening. Sidious learned most things that they had to offer and yet he was defeated by DE Luke.
Result of that game: DE Luke would already be good enough to take it up with Revan. NJO Luke would tool him.
Stover’s opinion apparently contradicts with Lucas’ own interpretation of his characters. In the movies, Yoda – its painfully obvious – struggles to throw away a block of debris sent by Dooku to crush Kenobi and Anakin. He has to dodge senate pods instead of tossing them away. As such it is appropriate to regard it as hyperbole – a contradiction of Lucas’ views and the trends set forth by pre-existing EU.
Yeah. Yoda always struggles because he makes a few nice gestures. Nice how he throws one of the Senate pods back into Sidious face with apparent ease and without any "struggling" but I guess you have missed that somehow. Bringing the top of a mountain down and lifting the remains of an entire temple up as well as levitating Luke's X-Wing around with apparent ease (all in sources either done or approved by Lucas directly) of course doesn't mean anything because your interpretation of something that is shown in AotC.
Aside of the fact that Lucas obviously approved the RotS novel and, according to Stover, went through it line by line even going so far to change single words within the text. Ups ?
I suspect Malak’s interpretation may not have been the right one. Even if it were, it contradicts nothing described of Yoda as per Lucas. It contradicts Stover, but in this case Stover contradicts a higher source of canon.
Stover's words are directly approved by Lucas...word by word. And there is no higher source of canon than Lucas personally. Or to make it more clear. If Lucas suddenly decides that something shown in RotS didn't happen like that - this counts, not the film. At least it counts more than your personal interpretation of a five second sequence in one of his movies. There you go.
I’d like to see a bit more proof to back up your argument.
And I'd like to see Revan slaughtering through armies of nigh force immune creatures equipped with lightsaber resistant armor and weapons. Then he just has to be able to create loops inside the force to hide planets away, make himself invisible and unsenseable to other force user or defeat the likes of DE Sidious and so on and so forth in personal confrontation. Somebody who has to go through an "epic lightsaber duel" with somebody who's skill is on one level with Dooku (roughly) clearly isn't a match for NJO Luke Skywalker.
I would respond, Zephiel, but it would be identical to Nai's own. Thus, it would be redundant and a complete waste of time. I will, however, add that LightSnake has proven that the contents of the RotS novelization was personally overseen by Lucas himself, according to an interview with Stover, and - as Nai so eloquently pointed out - Lucas's interpretation of what is canon and what isn't trumps not only your opinion, but the movies themselves.
The novelization confirms that Yoda was the strongest Jedi ever. Actually, he was the strongest "foe had ever known" which one could interpret to encompass anyone who had ever battled evil, or - more specifically - the Dark Side. This is established canon, and something you must unfortunately come to grips with.
Escape, I would have to disagree with you concerning Jacen tooling Revan. Granted, he fought a force phantom of luke, but you and I both know Luke was not giving his best. Furthermore, he is described as second to Luke in the CURRENT Jedi hierarchy. His knowledge, in terms of variety, trumps anybody in the SW universe but his overall knowledge isn't comparable to the likes of Sidious, Yoda, and Revan. So again, I don't see how Jacen would be tooling Revan anywhere.
Still clinging to the Revan fanboyism ?
So Darth Bane did "fear" the powers and abilities Revan did know ? Kreia who taught Revan and (at least for Dark Side knowledge) did possess the very same sources (Malachor V) actually calls the abilities of the original ancient Sith frightening. Sidious learned most things that they had to offer and yet he was defeated by DE Luke.Result of that game: DE Luke would already be good enough to take it up with Revan. NJO Luke would tool him.
Yes, I agree that Revan would be defeated, but there is no evidence that confirms that it will be a walk in the park. Considering all the evidence presented above, Luke would be experience some difficulty.
EDIT: Also, I have heard theories that Luke was backed by the battle meditation of his sister in DE. Do you have proof that goes contrary to this belief?
Yeah. Yoda always struggles because he makes a few nice gestures. Nice how he throws one of the Senate pods back into Sidious face with apparent ease and without any "struggling" but I guess you have missed that somehow
Bringing the top of a mountain down and lifting the remains of an entire temple up
as well as levitating Luke's X-Wing around with apparent ease (all in sources either done or approved by Lucas directly)
of course doesn't mean anything because your interpretation of something that is shown in AotC.
Aside of the fact that Lucas obviously approved the RotS novel and, according to Stover, went through it line by line even going so far to change single words within the text. Ups ?
If Lucas suddenly decides that something shown in RotS didn't happen like that - this counts, not the film. At least it counts more than your personal interpretation of a five second sequence in one of his movies.
And I'd like to see Revan slaughtering through armies of nigh force immune creatures equipped with lightsaber resistant armor and weapons. Then he just has to be able to create loops inside the force to hide planets away, make himself invisible and unsenseable to other force user or defeat the likes of DE Sidious and so on and so forth in personal confrontation.
As I never stated that Revan would beat Luke - which you sadly missed – I remain puzzled as to the reason you decided to pile up all this bullshit on me.
Somebody who has to go through an "epic lightsaber duel" with somebody who's skill is on one level with Dooku (roughly) clearly isn't a match for NJO Luke Skywalker.
You must have missed the part supported by various narratives and evidence from DSB supplementary material that this Sith lord was empowered by the fore energies of an entire race, that Revan was still amensiatic, and that he also had to defeat Malak who recovered himself twice in order to finally be done with him.