pg. 340 "The not-Jacen struck, a fast, powerful lateral blow that Luke met with little effort, without conscious thought. Not-Jacen's blade was immediately in guard position for an anticipated counterstrike, but Luke held back."
Which means, what? He didn't follow up with an attack? That means that Luke "restrained himself" for the entire fight? I don't find that convincing.
I'm not pretending to have read this book, but it seems pretty damn obvious that when the writer chose to include "Luke held back" that he probably meant it.
The context of which only applies to a counterstrike. That's all it said, that instead of following up with a counterstrike (which Not-Jacen was prepared for), he didn't.
He also mentions:Pg. 351 "Well, I'm both sure what our disagreement is, but perhaps it could be settled by talking."
And Jacen engages in the banter as well; am I to assume, then, that Jacen was holding back, because he considered "talking it out"? If that is the case, then they were both holding back.
So he was not fighting as he would have with one of his other opponents; say DE Sidious or Shimrra, where everything hinged on the fact that he killed said opponent. This was of course, also his nephew, and we know that Luke is not possessed of the same ruthlessness that Jacen seems to be exhibiting lately.
I've provided proof that Luke not only countered, but that he "pitched attacks of his own", culminating in him nearly wounding Jacen and Jacen nearly wounding him.
Prove up Jessiah. One saber duel is hardly enough evidence to base a sound conclusion. Especially a duel as questionable as this one.
I would suggest finding Glentract and offering more proof. Jacen is second only to Luke in the Jedi Order, and above Kyp "I-can-move-a-black-hole" Durron. Where has Revan exhibited such tendancies?
Which means, what? He didn't follow up with an attack? That means that Luke "restrained himself" for the entire fight? I don't find that convincing.
The context of which only applies to a counterstrike. That's all it said, that instead of following up with a counterstrike (which Not-Jacen was prepared for), he didn't.
It's safe to assume in this instance that Luke's stance on the fight remained the same throughout.
Originally posted by Gideon
Which means, what? He didn't follow up with an attack? That means that Luke "restrained himself" for the entire fight? I don't find that convincing.
I've provided proof that Luke not only countered, but that he "pitched attacks of his own", culminating in him nearly wounding Jacen and Jacen nearly wounding him.
I would suggest finding Glentract and offering more proof. Jacen is second only to Luke in the Jedi Order, and above Kyp "I-can-move-a-black-hole" Durron. Where has Revan exhibited such tendancies? [/B]
Which means, what? He didn't follow up with an attack? That means that Luke "restrained himself" for the entire fight? I don't find that convincing.
It said also that Luke defended easily get against it.
That he held back and didn't decide to go on the offensive seems pretty evident that he was not hell bent on showing his "full fury", so to speak, on Jacen.
The context of which only applies to a counterstrike. That's all it said, that instead of following up with a counterstrike (which Not-Jacen was prepared for), he didn't.
It's fair to assume that the context could have been set for the entire fight. If not, please provide proof.
And Jacen engages in the banter as well; am I to assume, then, that Jacen was holding back, because he considered "talking it out"? If that is the case, then they were both holding back.
If he does, and if you are asserting that this influenced the ruthless Jacen to be wary of hurting an opponent who he probably thought could easily kill him, then please, prove up.
I've provided proof that Luke not only countered, but that he "pitched attacks of his own", culminating in him nearly wounding Jacen and Jacen nearly wounding him.
From Glentracts quotes, such a state was reached because Luke was not yet fully sure on whether or not to "hold back."
I would suggest finding Glentract and offering more proof. Jacen is second only to Luke in the Jedi Order, and above Kyp "I-can-move-a-black-hole" Durron. Where has Revan exhibited such tendancies? [/B]
According to Sexy, his position in second was only defined in the context of the NJO. I also want some proof that he physically moved the black hole.
I think I see the passage in Dark Tide. Apparently Luke helped the Yuzzhang Vong machine move the "void." So apparently it was the machine moving the void, and Luke was giving a bit of help not independently flinging the black hole across the galaxy.
From the novel Dark Tide:
The dovin basals devoted their efforts to sliding the void into place, which required both some lateral movement and shortening the arc over which the void would travel. As they brought it close to the vehicle, Luke pushed with the Force. Since the dovin basals were already tugging the void back toward the vehicle, they were not prepared to have the travel accelerated.
Luke helped the "dovin basal" push the void. He didn't start flinging it into them by himself.
I would imagine the same was for Durron, who for all intents and purposes is weaker than Luke. I also recall seeing that these voids were not quite of the stature of a full fledged black hole.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Didn't Luke manipulate black holes in the battle of Dantooine?
Zephiel's assumption is correct. The excerpt he posted regarding the black hole was at the Battle of Dantooine. Although, if you have actually read the book, zephiel, Luke has to use his energy to keep the void in place against the will and power of the dovin basals. It describes the event as such:
"Immediately the dovin basals started to shift the void to cover this new attack vector. Luke fed the Force into his hold on the void, thwarting them. Their pressure increased, and still Luke held it unmoving." (Dark Tide I: Onslaught, Ch. 32).
At the end, he 'let the void slip', however, he still had to manipulate it, and it wasn't like he just assisted in moving it. So, I don't know how you came to the conclusion that it he gave "a bit of help", when he wasn't even helping, and the dovin basals were working furiously to counter Luke's actions.
Also, dovin basals aren't machines, they're creatures.
"Immediately the dovin basals started to shift the void to cover this new attack vector. Luke fed the Force into his hold on the void, thwarting them. Their pressure increased, and still Luke held it unmoving." (Dark Tide I: Onslaught, Ch. 32).
Yup, I remember that part.
However, black holes are massive objects. I wouldn't imagine Luke would have to expend too much "force energy," so to speak, to keep these basals from moving the hole. To move an object - for all intents and purposes - of infinite mass would require a lot of energy, something that I reckon these creatures barely possess.
I personally would see the amount of energy Luke would have to spend to hold the hole in place was not that much, considering the black hole's mass itself was what was probably causing most of the difficulty.
So, I don't know how you came to the conclusion that it he gave "a bit of help", when he wasn't even helping.
Didn't they say something like - "they were not prepared for the acceleration"
Also, dovin basals aren't machines, they're creatures. [/B]
Now that's ****ed up. They must be some beastly creatures.
Originally posted by zephiel7
Yup, I remember that part.However, black holes are massive objects. I wouldn't imagine Luke would have to expend too much "force energy," so to speak, to keep these basals from moving the hole.
Then you'll probably remember this part as well:
"Luke stared at the Caamasi for a moment, trying to reply, but a wave of exhaustion crested over him and eroded his ability to think. He shook his head, then slumped back in the chair. The Force energy he had used to help the Yuuzhan Vong destroy themselves had drained out of him completely, leaving him limp and barely able to keep his eyes open. " (Dark Tide I: Onslaught, Ch. 32).
Indeed, the amount of power he expended was vast, and left him in an extremely fatigued state.
To move an object - for all intents and purposes - of infinite mass would require a lot of energy, something that I reckon these creatures barely possess.
Uh, no.
They are made to do such, and manipulate energy. They can block 'laser bolts, as well as plasma bolts' with the voids they project. They're capable of nullifying the effects of deflector shields, and even have pulled a moon into the planet it orbits, which decimated both of them (as revealed in Vector Prime, during a conversation between Nom Anor and Da'Gara).
They're power is immense, and even in this case, they were several.
I personally would see the amount of energy Luke would have to spend to hold the hole in place was not that much, considering the black hole's mass itself was what was probably causing most of the difficulty.
See above. Just to keep it in its position, he used a huge amount of energy, and was spent afterwards.
Didn't they say something like - "they were not prepared for the acceleration"
Yes, and this means what exactly?
He didn't 'help' them in any sense of the word, he was trying to destroy them. They were attempting to move the void back towards the vehicle, as it says, and when Luke cut off his connection to the black hole, it annihilated the Vong as they were applying their strength to pull it back.
As we know, when someone holds a door closed while another tries to open it with their full force, and the person who is keeping it closed lets go, the other usually goes flying (or falls backwards, rather).
Now that's ****ed up. They must be some beastly creatures.
They really are.
"Luke stared at the Caamasi for a moment, trying to reply, but a wave of exhaustion crested over him and eroded his ability to think. He shook his head, then slumped back in the chair. The Force energy he had used to help the Yuuzhan Vong destroy themselves had drained out of him completely, leaving him limp and barely able to keep his eyes open. " (Dark Tide I: Onslaught, Ch. 32).Indeed, the amount of power he expended was vast, and left him in an extremely fatigued state.
Hmm, I didn't bother to read that last part.
Well, its interesting to note that it was a tough ordeal for him...but it is certainly not akin to him actually moving an object of near infinite mass. This still does not exclude the fact that he was using the mass of the black hole to his advantage when he was preventing those things from moving it? How could he not?
pulled a moon into its own planet, which decimated both of them (as revealed in Vector Prime, during a conversation between Nom Anor and Da'Gara).
Again, I must stress that even moving an object as massive as a moon into a planet is trite in comparison to the amount of energy required to move a blackhole. Negligible in fact. A moon is a definite mass, huge actually, but the mass of a black hole is theorized to be high enough to pull light into it. Hurling a hundred moons 100 metres would probably require far less energy than moving a blackhole by even an inch.
See above. Just to keep it in its position, he used a huge amount of energy, and was spent afterwards.
I would imagine, yes, that it would require tremendous amounts of energy. However, I am merely arguing that it would not be the titanic godly amounts as actually flinging a black hole towards them, since the black hole itself acts a source of near infinite mass to make it hard on those creatures to move. Luke must have expended a lot of energy, don't get me wrong, but not as much as I previously assumed.
Yes, and this means what exactly? He didn't 'help' them in any sense of the word, he was trying to destroy them. They were trying to move the void back towards the vehicle, as it says, and when Luke cut off his connection to the black hole, it annihilated the Vong as they were applying their strength to pull it back. As we know, when someone holds a door closed while another tries to open it with their full force, and the person who is keeping it closed lets go, the other usually goes flying (or falls backwards, rather).
Gotcha.
Originally posted by zephiel7
Well, its interesting to note that it was a tough ordeal for him...but it is certainly not akin to him actually moving an object of near infinite mass.
I don't recall saying it was, but your post states plainly that all he did was 'help push it a bit', when that's completely false.
This still does not exclude the fact that he was using the mass of the black hole to his advantage when he was preventing those things from moving it? How could he not?
1. How is the former sentence a question?
2. Treating it as it is: considering there were more dovin basals, no.
Again, I must stress that even moving an object as massive as a moon into a planet is trite in comparison to the amount of energy required to move a blackhole. Negligible in fact. A moon is a definite mass, huge actually, but the mass of a black hole is theorized to be high enough to pull light into it. Hurling a hundred moons 100 metres would probably require far less energy than moving a blackhole by even an inch.
First, I'm going to note I'm no physicist (nor taken many classes regarding the subject), therefore I really haven't a clue what you're talking about.
Next, the dovin basals are used for the purpose of gravity manipulation. They move these voids around constantly, as noted on basically every occasion of which they appear. So, why would they 'barely possess' the power to control a void of which they create? The logic does not follow.
Finally, one dovin basal is enough to do such a feat of moving a moon into its body. Again, I must stress their colossal power, and the fact that there were multiple dovin basals at the Battle of Dantooine, who were striving to regain their command of the black hole.
I would imagine, yes, that it would require tremendous amounts of energy. However, I am merely arguing that it would not be the titanic godly amounts as actually flinging a black hole towards them, since the black hole itself acts a source of near infinite mass to make it hard on those creatures.
Zephiel, it left Luke to the point where he couldn't even so much as open his eyes, or think. I don't understand what you're trying to say, as the basals were obviously larger in numbers, can move these miniature voids to block all types of oncoming fire, and create "gravitic anomalies" to the point where they can prevent any ship from hyperspace travel.
I don't recall saying it was, but your post states plainly that all he did was 'help push it a bit', when that's completely false.
Yup. Like I said, I was skimming through countless pages of poorly conceived plot devices before I came upon the passage, so I was a bit fatigued, if you know what I mean.
How is the former sentence a question
It was just to indicate I was curious. Like I said before, I am not too familiar with the source material. And I'm tired. 😛
First, I'm going to note I'm no physicist (nor taken many classes regarding the subject), therefore I really haven't a clue what you're talking about.
In short, black holes have a lot of mass. To accelerate a mass would require a lot of force. To move something of near infinite mass would require a near infinite force and hence near infinite energy (infinite amount of man power). From my admittedly limited perspective (since I have not read the books), it seems that the two contenders (Luke and the basals) were fighting for the control of the black hole. Luke however was only trying to keep it still, so he would not have to worry about imparting an acceleration (at least on the level of what the basals had to do) on the mass (black hole). All he would have to do is "siphon force" - I suppose - to increase the already considerable inertia of the black hole (wow, I sounded like a nerd.) The basals however, would have to actually accelerate the mass at a far greater rate, hence they would have to impart more energy than Luke would have to spend.
I apologize if I sound like a raving madman, but like I said, I had to sift through pages of some of the most DBZish material I've ever read, and here in Ottawa its past midnight.
Next, the dovin basals are used for the purpose of gravity manipulation. They move these voids around constantly, as noted on basically every occasion of which they appear. So, why would they 'barely possess' the power to control a void of which they create?
Whether or not they create it, it follows that they would still be subject to the burden of carrying it, right? If I were to consume, on a daily basis one hundred pounds of fat, and gain say, 200 pounds worth of weight, I would suffer the consequence of lifting those extra two hundred pounds of weight. This analogy may be a little "rough around the edges," but it still conveys some semblance of the idea, which is a fair assumption.
Finally, one dovin basal is enough to do such a feat of moving a moon into its body. Again, I must stress their colossal power, and the fact that there were multiple dovin basals at the Battle of Dantooine, who were striving to regain their command of the black hole.
How many? Again, I remain unconvinced with the facts presented thus far that moving a blackhole would have been an easy feat for them, especially considering that independently moving a black hole would require far more energy than moving a moon. I have my reservations in accepting that these things could "easily generate the required energy to move a black hole," without a quote that proves that there was little effort - which, the very concept, is hard for me wrap my mind around.
I'm pretty sure you got the idea, but if someone was barely dragging 1000 pounds, and if I jumped on the mass, they would probably not even be able to budge it.
Zephiel, it left Luke to the point where he couldn't even so much as open his eyes, or think. I don't understand what you're trying to say, as the basals were obviously larger in numbers, can move these miniature voids to block all types of oncoming fire, and create "gravitic anomalies" to the point where they can prevent any ship from hyperspace travel.
My initial purpose with the posts was to illustrate the idea that Luke "moving black holes" wasn't really accurate. In this specific circumstance, it may of been a difficult feat for him - but it certainly isn't like actually moving a black hole say 100m.
I was not implying that you suggested he did, though, and I agree with the majority of your points that it would have been a trying affair, and very few in the SW universe could even attempt it.
I'm not even going to bother addressing the entirety of that reply, seeing as your misinterpreting my position. Once you realize that I didn't claim it'd be an 'easy' feat, nor something that would require 'little effort', then we'll start discussing the matter. I'm saying that it isn't as extremely difficult as you made it out to be, which is true. Hell, it's not even that hard from what we know, a mediocre amount of power would be used, at best.
You made an assumption that they "barely possess" the ability to move them (and bolded the 'barely', indicating you believe that its intensely demanding). That's simply not true, and every single shred of evidence I've provided suggests that they do have the capabilities to do such (even the most obvious one where one can do it on its own. Wow, how is that not convincing?), and it's not as if they employ the upper limit of their ability. I never denied that they don't exert themselves, but it's not as if they just have enough energy to manipulate them. So, try again. I simply do not like to argue when my statements are being taken out of context.
The basals however, would have to actually accelerate the mass at a far greater rate, hence they would have to impart more energy than Luke would have to spend.
Even after Luke let go of the void itself, they had to reposition it, and still had enough energy to do so. Whereas after Luke pushed it, he couldn't even think, nor had the strength to so much as open his eyes. Nothing indicated that the dovin basals had any problems controlling it when Luke's power was not projected onto the black hole itself.
Whether or not they create it, it follows that they would still be subject to the burden of carrying it, right?
And this makes your logic follow how exactly? Oh, right. It doesn't.
They 'barely possess' the capabilities to maneuver these miniature black holes, but they don't actually get worn until the void contains energy such as that of proton torpedoes? In what world does that make sense?
One still is able to move a void, even while absorbing fire (which causes even more vigorous usage of power).
How many?
I don't believe it gives an exactly detailed account of the number of dovin basals present, but the definite number isn't the actual point. It's the fact that there was, at the very least, more than one. Now, considering that one by itself can move the void that it projects, I'm going to say that it'd be even less strenuous with two (again, the absolute minimum) dovin basals.
And if I said that, I'd be correct.
Especially considering that independently moving a black hole would require far more energy than moving a moon.
You're stuck on this one feat? Why? Did you miss the sentence that says "they move these voids around constantly, as noted on basically every occasion of which they appear"?
I have my reservations in accepting that these things could "easily generate the required energy to move a black hole," without a quote that proves that there was little effort
And your quoting what exactly? Something I never said or implied?
I'm pretty sure you got the idea, but if someone was barely dragging 1000 pounds, and if I jumped on the mass, they would probably not even be able to budge it.
That's a rather faulty analogy, because they aren't "barely dragging" the black hole. If they are, why don't you prove up? I've provided sufficient evidence that suggests otherwise. And therefore, I'm not going to bother typing, or finding new things that show they don't apply nearly their full strength.
Alright Advent, like I said, I'm not too familiar with the material, but seeing some of your points, I do agree with what you said. However I am slightly confused as to your position. I think you think that it does take effort for these things to move the "voids," but it wouldn't pose too much of a difficulty right?
If you could answer these two questions, it would be helpful in seeing the capabilities of these things, and help clarify Luke's feat.
1. Did the NJO books explain how exactly these basals are moving the "void?" Are they actually "muscling" it around, or are they manipulating the field in some way that they wouldn't have to use as much effort in carrying it?
2. Are the voids themselves of the stature of a full fledged black hole? I remember skimming through some material that said they were not quite as "big." If they were smaller, the feat would not be equivalent to using TK to "move" a black hole. I've heard from Wookiepedia that the maximum these "voids" could pull were "small planets," so they wouldn't be as powerful as a blackhole.
3. Luke never actually moved these "voids" according to you, right?
On a side note not directly related to the argument, these basals were definately powerful in that they could move planetary bodies like moons. However their power isn't quite as high as what I thought it was, since Bane himself was capable of nudging moons in much the same way.
Originally posted by zephiel7
I think you think that it does take effort for these things to move the "voids," but it wouldn't pose too much of a difficulty right?
Exactly.
It may seem like I was arguing that they undemanding (such like when I state things like "they move them all the time", etc.), but you have to take a look at what I'm actually replying to.
1. If by 'muscling around' you mean like physically grab them, then no. They manipulate the gravity fields to maneuver the voids around, and other various things (such as to stop hyperspace travel, and the like).
2. No, they are described as "miniature black holes". So, you're right. I'm not quite sure what this has to do with what I said, though. It only pertains solely towards what you're talking about, in that the feat isn't as remarkable as it has been said to, but I wasn't really trying to go into that.
3. Actually, he did. I missed the part in the book where it says that "Luke pushed with the Force", as they were in the middle of bringing the void back near the vehicle. Now, in that part of the situation, Luke would've had assistance (and it wouldn't have been as hard as just flinging it into them) due to the fact they were already "tugging the void back".
And, there's a difference between 'nudging' a moon, and actually being capable of pulling a moon into its larger celestial body.