Escape, I would have to disagree with you concerning Jacen tooling Revan.
That does not surprise me. Everyone has a soft spot for Revan, these days.
Granted, he fought a force phantom of luke, but you and I both know Luke was not giving his best.
There isn't any evidence of Luke intentionally holding back during the fight with Jacen (who he also recognized as a "phantom" and not the real Jacen). In fact, Betrayal says that Luke: "countered every blow and pitched attacks of his own".
Luke has never been an "aggressive" fighter (save for instances when he was either a.) using the dark side or b.) under Sidious's thrall), so I don't see what you mean to accomplish.
Furthermore, he is described as second to Luke in the CURRENT Jedi hierarchy.
Right, and several members - especially with the amount of Skywalkers present - have shown far greater examples of "raw power" than any incarnation of the Jedi Order.
His knowledge, in terms of variety, trumps anybody in the SW universe but his overall knowledge isn't comparable to the likes of Sidious, Yoda, and Revan.
His knowledge is broader than theirs, yes. Certainly not as specific, but he is definately more of the cultured and enlightened warrior. In either case, knowledge isn't the ultimate deciding factor. Skill is.
So again, I don't see how Jacen would be tooling Revan anywhere.
Jacen is on par with LotF Luke. Revan is not. Revan isn't close. That's why he's better, and would tool Revan.
Edit: Shark's on. Be back either later or tomorrow.
Originally posted by Gideon
That does not surprise me. Everyone has a soft spot for Revan, these days.
There isn't any evidence of Luke intentionally holding back during the fight with Jacen (who he also recognized as a "phantom" and not the real Jacen). In fact, Betrayal says that Luke: "countered every blow and pitched attacks of his own".
Luke has never been an "aggressive" fighter (save for instances when he was either a.) using the dark side or b.) under Sidious's thrall), so I don't see what you mean to accomplish.
Right, and several members - especially with the amount of Skywalkers present - have shown far greater examples of "raw power" than any incarnation of the Jedi Order.
His knowledge is broader than theirs, yes. Certainly not as specific, but he is definately more of the cultured and enlightened warrior. In either case, knowledge isn't the ultimate deciding factor. Skill is.
Jacen is on par with LotF Luke. Revan is not. Revan isn't close. That's why he's better, and would tool Revan.
If that's your outlook on it. I on the other hand, don't believe Revan gets enough credit, especially with more revelation about him in POD.
Well, then we're victims of "differing opinions". I think that Revan's "power" - for the most part - is well defined and well accepted by most of the KMC members, save for the few who are extremely stupid. However, he is certainly not as powerful as Jacen. He's less than RotS Sidious and Yoda.
There was no evidence of Luke going all out was there? I have the book and I don't remember Luke having any trouble whatsoever with the force phantom.
Ah, I see. So, you acknowledge that there is no evidence of Luke restraining himself, so now you're asking for evidence of him going full out? This is becoming ridiculous, Darth Sexy. Surely you see the ridiculous nature of your rebuttal. Are we to assume that all instances where a "fight to the death" isn't defined, that the characters are restraining themselves?
I've offered you a quote that Luke countered Jacen's attacks and gave some of his own. I will also provide a quote for you that displays both of them barely evading wounds:
"he [Luke] felt the skin of his left forearm pucker a little from the heat of a near hit, saw the Not Jacen's robes catch fire from an especially close thrust of Luke's... - page 351.
That quote is a goldmine: both of them were struggling and both of them were aiming to defeat the other.
Right, he was aggressive against the Emperor. Was he not as aggressive against the Vong when he slayed nearly an entire army? Again, I didn't see any description of him having any difficulty whatsoever with the force phantom.
Luke isn't normally an aggressive fighter compared to "reckless" Jedi or Sith Lords. Hell, Yoda - by far - is more aggressive than he is. Save for, again, a few instances, he is a complacent, defensive duelist.
Ok.... My point is Jacen is second in the NJO, nothing states he's second overall. And again, I don't see anything that would put Jacen's force abilities above Yoda or Revan, perhaps you c an list some examples of what makes him more powerful.
I never said that Jacen was second "overall". He is the second most powerful Jedi in an Order whose upper echelon possesses far more "raw power" than any old incarnation of the Jedi Order.
Are you insinuating that his skill is superior to the likes of Yoda and Revan, or are you just making the point that skill is the deciding factor? How much skill does Jacen have compared to those two exactly?
I am suggesting both, and Jacen's skill is most decidedly superior.
You are basing your argument on this ONE quote, that Jacen is a fair match for Luke? Come on Escape...Aside from that one quote, there is nothing that suggests Jacen is better than, or equal to Revan, or Yoda.
You should know better, Darth Sexy. Quotes are conclusive, interpretation of "evidence" can be flawed and inconclusive. So, yes, when there is a quote - and it is, at least, mildly supported by other quotes or on panel evidence - I will support it.
Are we to assume that all instances where a "fight to the death" isn't defined, that the characters are restraining themselves?
Glentract earlier suggested that Luke was restraining himself in combat.
pg. 340 "The not-Jacen struck, a fast, powerful lateral blow that Luke met with little effort, without conscious thought. Not-Jacen's blade was immediately in guard position for an anticipated counterstrike, but Luke held back. "
I'm not pretending to have read this book, but it seems pretty damn obvious that when the writer chose to include "Luke held back" that he probably meant it.
He also mentions:
Pg. 351 "Well, I'm both sure what our disagreement is, but perhaps it could be settled by talking."
So he was not fighting as he would have with one of his other opponents; say DE Sidious or Shimrra, where everything hinged on the fact that he killed said opponent. This was of course, also his nephew, and we know that Luke is not possessed of the same ruthlessness that Jacen seems to be exhibiting lately.
I am suggesting both, and Jacen's skill is most decidedly superior.
Prove up Jessiah. One saber duel is hardly enough evidence to base a sound conclusion. Especially a duel as questionable as this one.
Originally posted by Gideon
Well, then we're victims of "differing opinions". I think that Revan's "power" - for the most part - is well defined and well accepted by most of the KMC members, save for the few who are extremely stupid. However, he is certainly not as powerful as Jacen. He's less than RotS Sidious and Yoda.
Ah, I see. So, you acknowledge that there is no evidence of Luke restraining himself, so now you're asking for evidence of him going full out? This is becoming ridiculous, Darth Sexy. Surely you see the ridiculous nature of your rebuttal. Are we to assume that all instances where a "fight to the death" isn't defined, that the characters are restraining themselves?
That quote is a goldmine: both of them were struggling and both of them were aiming to defeat the other.
I am suggesting both, and Jacen's skill is most decidedly superior.
You should know better, Darth Sexy. Quotes are conclusive, interpretation of "evidence" can be flawed and inconclusive. So, yes, when there is a quote - and it is, at least, mildly supported by other quotes or on panel evidence - I will support it. [/B]