Darth Maul vs. Agen Kolar

Why, exactly, would we disregard a duel that happens in the movies? Kolar is just as good as before. Sidious just really is that much better. However, Maul was close to a TPM Sidious in saber combat. He also "mastered the lightsaber," along with practicing Teras Kasi and marksmanship.

Maul beat Qui Gon, who was on par with Mace Windu (as of TPM) and the best duelist Obi Wan had ever seen (as of TPM), in 30 seconds flat. Maul also held both Qui Gon and his Padawan (might I point out that Obi Wan was Knighted the next day) off, and the pair made no progress.

Random crap from TPM Novel:
"Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order. The Jedi Master he had trained under had considered him one of the best the Master had taught in his more than four hundred years in the order. Qui-Gon had fought in conflicts all across the galaxy in the span of his life and against odds so great that many others would not have stood a chance. He had survived battles that had tested his skill and resolve in every conceivable way.
But on this day, he had met his match. The Sith Lord he battled with Obi - Wan was more than his equal in weapons training, and he had the advantage of being younger and stronger."

"Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.
Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex. In addition, he was driven by his messianic hatred for and disdain of the Jedi Knights, the enemies of the Sith for millennia. He had worked and trained all his life for this moment, for a chance to meet a Jedi Knight in combat. It was an added bonus that he was able to engage two. He had no fear for himself, no doubt that he would win. He was focused in a way that Qui-Gon recognized at once-a Jedi's focus, mindful of the present, locked in on what was needed in the here and now. Qui-Gon saw it in his mad eyes and in the set of his red and black tattooed features. The Sith Lord was a living example of what the Jedi Master was always telling Obi-Wan about how best to hear the will of the Force."

And DarthSith, did you really just put Traya above Qui Gon inn saber combat? Most of the people in your list were debatable, but when I got to Traya, that's just ridiculous. Do you mean the Jedi with no dueling prowess to her name whatsoever, or a one handed old hag?

Just how did you reach that conclusion?

Sorry for the double post.

Kolar does stand a chance

Ofcoz I don't think Maul can pwn Vos, but on the other hand, I still doubt if Kolar can pwn Vos. If he can, that means Koon, Fisto, or other Jedi can pwn Vos too(maybe). And Dooku is definitely better than Kolar.

Why, exactly, would we disregard a duel that happens in the movies? Kolar is just as good as before. Sidious just really is that much better. However, Maul was close to a TPM Sidious in saber combat. He also "mastered the lightsaber," along with practicing Teras Kasi and marksmanship.

Maul beat Qui Gon, who was on par with Mace Windu (as of TPM) and the best duelist Obi Wan had ever seen (as of TPM), in 30 seconds flat. Maul also held both Qui Gon and his Padawan (might I point out that Obi Wan was Knighted the next day) off, and the pair made no progress.

"Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order. The Jedi Master he had trained under had considered him one of the best the Master had taught in his more than four hundred years in the order.

And DarthSith, did you really just put Traya above Qui Gon inn saber combat? Most of the people in your list were debatable, but when I got to Traya, that's just ridiculous. Do you mean the Jedi with no dueling prowess to her name whatsoever, or a one handed old hag?

Just how did you reach that conclusion?

Obviously, Lucas doesn't know how strong Kolar is in EU, so he just made Kolar the way he wanted Kolar to be.

In that quote from the Making of book, "You have to be Yoda or Mace to hang with Sidious, Anakin could have beat him if he did not get messed up." In describing why Kolar,Fisto and Tiin lose so easily b/c they are the B team.

I think it was sh*t. I mean, It really sucks that such cool Jedi were killed SO easily. I know that what you say makes sense, but it was just not a good thing for Lucas to do.

Proof that Kolar is better than Koon & Fisto. Also proof that why he is on par with Dooku.

Kolar is NOT on par with Dooku! who said that, vader11?

darthsith19: "Maybe EU Kolar is close to Dooku", "How does that mean that Koon and Fisto can pwn Vos, too? Maybe Kolar is ahead of them. What makes you say that Dooku is definitely ahead of Kolar?"

Originally posted by darthsith19
What makes you say that Dooku is definitely ahead of Kolar?

Because he plainly is, darthsith.

I don't know why or how you can come to such conclusions like that of Agen "Mincemeat" Kolar is on par with Count Dooku, who simply has enough expertise to best General Grievous (who would beat Kolar), who has shown the ability to defeat both Master Tholme, and Sora Bulq, two formidable swordsmen (the latter a practitioner of Vaapad, mind you), who did overcome Asajj Ventress (albeit, she's weaker than in Obsession, at that point), among other things (such as defeat Obi-Wan, then Anakin, and still be able to fend off Yoda).

I suppose Saesee Tiin, and Kit Fisto are also in league with Darth Tyranus, given Yoda proclaims both of them as "[two] of the greatest swordsmen [the] Order has ever produced"?

Really, you're even more dense than I previously thought. We don't need your unestablished horse shit theories.

Obviously, Lucas doesn't know how strong Kolar is in EU, so he just made Kolar the way he wanted Kolar to be.

Which is absolute. George Lucas doesn't have to conform to the Expanded Universe, it's vice versa.

Otherwise we could just say "f*ck EU, a single Cloonetrooper with a saber could beat Kolar!" which is stupid.

No, we couldn't.

Explain to me how that statement would be viable if we disregarded the EU. Indeed, it wouldn't, due to the fact a clone trooper has never shown the capabilities to handle a blade with skill above that of Ashla, at best. Plus, you can merely deduce from the fact Agen's had years of experience, and training, whereas a clone trooper has had none of either.

Qui-Gon was already tired by the time that Maul beat him in 30 seconds, cause they had been fighting before that for several minutes.

Qui-Gon Jinn had also revitalized himself. Perhaps you missed his meditation when the energy rays blocked the walkway?

"He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied." (The Phantom Menace, Ch. 23).

Furthermore, the script also says that Qui-Gon was fighting with 'a ferocity not seen before'. Likewise, the same applies for Darth Maul, who not only had to fend off Qui-Gon beforehand, but also had to focus his attention on Obi-Wan additionally. As well, to top that of, Darth Maul was injured to a degree, as you so eagerly pointed out in another thread.

I'm not arguing that Darth Maul would win (but I'll say that he would), as I could really care less what you have to say about it, but it's quite funny how you exclude all the facts surrounding the situation itself, and pick and choose what you want.

I'd also like to point out, again, that you've stated Darth Maul "nearly killed" Darth Sidious, and that he defeated Anoon Bondara, described by the omniscient narrator in Shadow Hunter, as having "skill with a lightsaber second to none" (although, that's debatable it still speaks volumes).

Originally posted by vader11
Also proof that why he is on par with Dooku.

He isn't, I really don't know why anyone listens to or even acknowledges darthsith's ramblings. I'm sure he'll come in with a multitude of miscellaneous bullshit, though. He always does.

Because he plainly is, darthsith.

I don't know why or how you can come to such conclusions like that of Agen "Mincemeat" Kolar is on par with Count Dooku, who simply has enough expertise to best General Grievous (who would beat Kolar), who has shown the ability to defeat both Master Tholme, and Sora Bulq, two formidable swordsmen (the latter a practitioner of Vaapad, mind you), who did overcome Asajj Ventress (albeit, she's weaker than in Obsession, at that point), among other things (such as defeat Obi-Wan, then Anakin, and still be able to fend off Yoda).

I suppose Saesee Tiin, and Kit Fisto are also in league with Darth Tyranus, given Yoda proclaims both of them as "[two] of the greatest swordsmen [the] Order has ever produced"?

Which is absolute. George Lucas doesn't have to conform to the Expanded Universe, it's vice versa.

No, we couldn't.

Explain to me how that statement would be viable if we disregarded the EU. Indeed, it wouldn't, due to the fact a clone trooper has never shown the capabilities to handle a blade with skill above that of Ashla, at best. Plus, you can merely deduce from the fact Agen's had years of experience, and training, whereas a clone trooper has had none of either.

Qui-Gon Jinn had also revitalized himself. Perhaps you missed his meditation when the energy rays blocked the walkway?

"He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied." (The Phantom Menace, Ch. 23).

Furthermore, the script also says that Qui-Gon was fighting with 'a ferocity not seen before'. Likewise, the same applies for Darth Maul, who not only had to fend off Qui-Gon beforehand, but also had to focus his attention on Obi-Wan additionally. As well, to top that of, Darth Maul was injured to a degree, as you so eagerly pointed out in another thread.

I'd also like to point out, again, that you've stated Darth Maul "nearly killed" Darth Sidious, and that he defeated Anoon Bondara, described by the omniscient narrator in Shadow Hunter, as having "skill with a lightsaber second to none" (although, that's debatable it still speaks volumes).

Now come with your 5 page rebuttal, just try not to throw to many insults out, it makes you look bad, okay?

Proof that Kolar is better than Koon & Fisto. Also proof that why he is on par with Dooku.

It was a continuity error and should therefor be disregarded.

. Kolar would beat AOTC Anakin and Kenobi. Seeing how badly he tooled Vos, he could likely hold off Yoda for nearly as long as Dooku did.

Originally posted by kiddo44
the movie should be disregarded? 😕

He could not do either one of these, even if he had a good fight against Vos.

So someone can say Mace>all since he fight so well in CW cartoons? Kolar has a good fight against Vos in EU doesn't mean he is on par with Dooku. He did nothing else that can proof he is as good as Dooku. Also, if Kolar is better than Tiin, Fisto, Koon, & Ki Adi, why didn't he deserved more screen time than them? So, you don't think Maul can pwn Vos? Then you should think Kolar would beat Maul.

Yes, the EU Comic should be disregarded, because it is inconsistent

I don't think the movie should be disregarded in this case, but really, that scene doesn't say anything about Agen's skills, as it's fairly obvious that Sidious must have slowed down his reflexes or employed a partial force stun or something, as there's no way Agen's that shit, it's just not possible.

Originally posted by kiddo44
i agree with that more. You know what Lucas says is fact.

1.) So, merely because he had one victory over Quinlan Vos easily, he's on par with Count Dooku? Then why isn't General Grievous, who tore through five talented Jedi Knights at once in league with him? I'd love to see Agen battle Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, Aayla, K'Kruhk, and Tarr Sierr all at once, without using any Force powers.

2.)

Originally posted by Advent
We know he's killed such people as Master T'Chooka, Adi Gallia, and numerous other Jedi. At one point, Grievous is able to hold of five (or was it seven?) Jedi at once with only two lightsabers. Including Aayla Secura, and Council member, Ki-Adi Mundi. As I said, he was able to easily slice through Master T'Chooka who is described by the omniscient narrator as having "great skill" and being "strong in the Force":

Council Member and Jedi Master, Adi Gallia, as I said, was first pwned in a saberlock by General Grievous' extra hands, which I'd submit would happen to Maul as well probably:

That's two out of the numerous other Jedi he's killed. The Jedi Council even gives acknowledgment that General Grievous himself, not the army, is a threat to the Republic and the Jedi Order. They note his skill as exactly "the near indestructibility of a droid wedded with the skill of a deadly warrior":

In Labryinth of Evil, he's described as "Once merely a barbaric living being; now a cyborg monstrosity, devoted to death and destruction. Already the butcher of entire populations; the devastator of countless worlds...". I mean, Grievous competed with, and bested both Asajj Ventress and Durge at the same time.

From Labryinth of Evil: "The Geonosians had arranged for Grievous to be nothing but anger and rage. And as to the general's combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him. There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg."

As it seems, that is completely true. There's few Jedi that are capable of defeating him, as we've seen many fall to his blade. Losing to ROTS Obi-Wan is hardly a negative for Grievous, btw. And it even says Count Dooku had had trouble at times to outduel Grievous. We also know that he fights smart if he's being outdueled, definitely smarter than Darth Maul ever was.

"These Jedi were more proficient than the ones he had fought in the bunker, but not skilled enough to challenge him."

This is just proving how Jedi really are no match for Grievous, he takes them out within a split second of raising his lightsaber. He's obviously a very capable duelist, to think Maul is more skilled with a lightsaber is ridiculous. Grievous annihilates Jedi as if they were nothing. He's also capable of dodging fully automatic fire, and ripping an assault vehicle down with apparent ease with his lightsaber.

As well, from Dark Rendezvous - "Possibly Asajj Ventress, his protegee, would be there, clamoring to be made his apprentice. He had a meeting scheduled with the formidable General Grievous, [b]who was even more powerful than Ventress, but a great deal less interesting as a dinner-table conversationalist."

Grievous is described as being "more powerful than Ventress", who is extremely skillfull in her own right. Anyways, to sum up this post: Grievous wins is better than Agen Kolar. [/B]

When battling Mace Windu, the narrator describes General Grievous's strikes as "forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing". He's faster, more capable in terms of strength, and his computer analysis system allowed him to partially decipher Mace Windu's Vaapad in seconds. Now, in this scenario, he would have an advantage of knowing all of the traditional lightsaber forms, and even Kolar's own; whereas General Grievous' style can be unpredictable, to say the least, and he wields four lightsabers, something Agen has never encountered, to my knowledge.

3. Quinlan beat Sora Bulq and Tholme combined? Where does this happen exactly? Nowhere? More importantly, didn't Vos get a lucky hit on Sora? I seem to recall that was the case, as you've even admitted it in a previous thread.

Oh, and it's rather comedic how even after I call you out on not including all the details surrounding specific events, that you still do it:

Originally posted by darthsith19
if Sora hadn't gotten overconfident he'd have beaten Quinlan.

4. Yes, Agen "Mincemeat" Kolar can withstand Obi-Wan, who made Count Dooku "work furiously" to keep Kenobi's lightsaber at bay, at one point, and Anakin, who exhausted Count Dooku even further. Then be able to repel a fresh Yoda for an amount of time, despite the fact he was owned in seconds by Darth Sidious, who Yoda actually is on par with.

5. I doubt Agen could handle Asajj so easily. Again, you're concluding Kolar is supposedly 'on par' with Count Dooku, merely because of one defeat over Quinlan Vos? That's purely ridiculous.

6. The RotS novelization, chapter 19 when Yoda is discussing Palpatine with Obi-Wan:

"Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee -- four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced[...]"

So, again, I pose the question: are Saesee Tiin, and Kit Fisto also in league with Darth Tyranus?

It was a continuity error and should therefor be disregarded.

In case you didn't read,

Originally posted by Advent
George Lucas doesn't have to conform to the Expanded Universe, it's vice versa.

There is no such thing as a 'continuity error' from the highest form of canon, unless George Lucas has indicated such. For reference,

" When determining canon levels for individual entries, anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon." (Leland Chee, What is the Holocron?, May 25, 2005).

Movies > EU. Movies > Your bullshit. QED.

If we disregarded EU then Agen can only move a couple inches in 2 seconds.

Again, you're daftness is astounding.

This logic does not follow on the grounds that a clone trooper isn't Darth Sidious.

Assuming that a Clone Trooper could lift up a saber just as quickly as he can lift a blaster, he can at least move it 2 feet in a second, which is loads faster than movie Kolar can.

No, by very reason, Agen is faster than a clone troopers. Simply because he cannot respond quickly enough to defend against Darth Sidious' attacks doesn't mean he'd be that sluggish in every scenario. Now, you can still use the occurrence in RotS to support an argument, because it shows Kolar's skill isn't anywhere near that of Sidious', so why would it be close to Count Dooku's?

Moreover, your reasoning would still be faulty, unless you can prove a clone trooper could do any better in the situation Kolar, and the other Jedi were in.

So, try again, noob.

ESB Han could beat movie Agen in a saber duel, he moved Luke's saber several times faster than Kolar moves his saber in the movie. That's ridiculous.

Your statement is flawed, because Darth Sidious was just that much faster, and that much better where he could react before half of the Jedi could even move.

In addition to that, Agen would've been dead in AotC if that were true, seeing how he fought on screen, deflected blaster bolts, and thusly moved his lightsaber more than 'two inches per second' (see: the Battle of Geonosis).

It's simply the fact that he just cannot compare to Darth Sidious, neither could Kit, or Saesee.

True, but due to his age, Jinn's fresh reserve of strength wore away quickly. I just can't see Maul tooling Vos so easily

He doesn't necessarily have to for him to be the more formidable duelist. And nevertheless, Darth Maul did no such thing as meditate to regain what energy he had lost, and he was injured to an extent.

And using your logic, Darth Maul beats Agen Kolar on sheer virtue that he "nearly killed" Darth Sidious, according to you, whereas Kolar paled in comparison. I can't, and didn't see Agen coming close to outmatching Darth Sidious in lightsaber combat.

Yes, I'm assuming that the auothor didn't know how good Yoda was with a blade, though

Despite the fact that he listed Yoda ability with a lightsaber as "second to none on the council". Which is completely true, therefore you're assumption is inaccurate, and baseless.

Judging only by his duel with Vos and disregading ROTS, Kolar could put up a good fight against Sidious, though I doubt he'd nearly kill him.

You can't disregard a situation of where we've explicity seen what happens, and it's not wasn't a 'What if'-esque comic, it was a "G"-canon source. Agen Kolar went down in seconds flat, ergo one could properly assume that, at best (due to the circumstances), he'd go down in a a minimal amount of time, without Darth Sidious nearly exerting the upper limit of his capabilities.

Now come with your 5 page rebuttal, just try not to throw to many insults out, it makes you look bad, okay?

How does it give off any impression of negativity? It might imply that I'm a jackass, but clearly, when you're completely wrong, and full of shit -- its justified.

Given that I'm often said to be one of the best debaters, if not the best, and I fling around degrading comments as often as a monkey flings shit, it must not mean much, now does it?

You're a dumbass. Oops, there I go again!

Where did you find those comic strips?

She mugged someone for them.