Originally posted by Ytse
Just that, for something to count as knowledge you must believe it to be true.
People who have knowledge about fictional books, don't believe that they are true. For example: I know people who have a great deal of knowledge about Star Wars, but they don't believe that the movies are true. So, what is it you are trying to say?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
People who have knowledge about fictional books, don't believe that they are true. For example: I know people who have a great deal of knowledge about Star Wars, but they don't believe that the movies are true. So, what is it you are trying to say?
But those Star Wars books/movies aren't making claims about reality. They're making claims about the Star Wars universe. And you believe them to be true statements (ultimately I guess George Lucas is the "god" here) about the Star Wars universe so you say you have knowledge of this Star Wars universe.
Originally posted by Ytse
But those Star Wars books/movies aren't making claims about reality. They're making claims about the Star Wars universe. And you believe them to be true statements (ultimately I guess George Lucas is the "god" here) about the Star Wars universe so you say you have knowledge of this Star Wars universe.
What? 😕 You are making no sense. I never said anything about Star Wars being true.
Please explain...
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What? 😕 You are making no sense. I never said anything about Star Wars being true.Please explain...
The bible makes claims about the nature of the reality we live in. The Star Wars movie makes claims only about the nature of the Star Wars universe.
If you believe the bible to be true then the claims it makes about the nature of our reality counts as knowledge to you.
When I say the Star Wars movies are "true" I mean only within the framework of the Star Wars universe. Because that is the only claims it is making (for instance, it claims there was a Death Star that Luke Skywalker destroyed but it isn't saying this happened in our reality, just within the fictional framework of Star Wars). And the reason those claims can be said to be knowledge about the Star Wars universe is because Geroge Lucas said so. And such facts about the reality within the Star Wars framework are left to the whims of George Lucas. Such as when he made Greedo shoot first.
For instance, if I said Luke Skywalker was actually a Sith you would say that isn't true. Even though there is no Luke Skywalker and no Sith to begin with. It only exists in Star Wars.
Originally posted by Ytse
The bible makes claims about the nature of the reality we live in. The Star Wars movie makes claims only about the nature of the Star Wars universe.If you believe the bible to be true then the claims it makes about the nature of our reality counts as knowledge to you.
When I say the Star Wars movies are "true" I mean only within the framework of the Star Wars universe. Because that is the only claims it is making (for instance, it claims there was a Death Star that Luke Skywalker destroyed but it isn't saying this happened in our reality, just within the fictional framework of Star Wars). And the reason those claims can be said to be knowledge about the Star Wars universe is because Geroge Lucas said so. And such facts about the reality within the Star Wars framework are left to the whims of George Lucas. Such as when he made Greedo shoot first.
The bible is just a book written by people (humans). The "claims about the nature of the reality" can only be understood as an expression of the people who wrote the bible. Just like the movies of Star Wars, if you take the bible out of context, you will be making delusional conclusions.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The bible is just a book written by people (humans). The "claims about the nature of the reality" can only be understood as an expression of the people who wrote the bible. Just like the movies of Star Wars, if you take the bible out of context, you will be making delusional conclusions.
Claiming I'm delusional is called argumentum ad hominem. It's ignoring my arguments and attacking me. It's also logically fallacious.
And in terms of psychiatry, according to the criteria in the DSM-IV:
A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith).
Originally posted by Ytse
Claiming I'm delusional is called argumentum ad hominem. It's ignoring my arguments and attacking me. It's also logically fallacious.And in terms of psychiatry, according to the criteria in the DSM-IV:
A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith).
I am not attacking you, or calling you names. What you have told me is, as I understand it: If you believe the bible is true, then the bible is knowledge to you. That is a delusional point of view. You can test this claim by replacing the bible with another book:
If you believe Star Wars is true, then Star Wars is knowledge to you.
This point of view would be considered delusional.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If you believe Star Wars is true, then Star Wars is knowledge to you.This point of view would be considered delusional.
Then you don't understand what I've said.
When I say Star Wars is true I mean only that it's true in the sense of being a reliable source of information about the Star Wars universe. Not a reliable source of information about reality. To believe that is the case would indeed be delusional since it's common knowledge that Geroge Lucas invented the whole thing and it wasn't constructed to be anything but fiction.
But plenty of secular people study the bible. And if you said to them "the first two humans were Jose and Sven" they would say that isn't true, that it was Adam and Eve. But they don't believe it to be true at all, in terms of a revelation about reality.
A believer takes the claims in the bible as true knowledge of reality. Rather than only a comparatively superficial knowledge of what is written in the pages.
Originally posted by Ytse
Then you don't understand what I've said.When I say Star Wars is true I mean only that it's true in the sense of being a reliable source of information about the Star Wars universe. Not a reliable source of information about reality. To believe that is the case would indeed be delusional since it's common knowledge that Geroge Lucas invented the whole thing and it wasn't constructed to be anything but fiction.
But plenty of secular people study the bible. And if you said to them "the first two humans were Jose and Sven" they would say that isn't true, that it was Adam and Eve. But they don't believe it to be true at all, in terms of a revelation about reality.
A believer takes the claims in the bible as true knowledge of reality. Rather than only a comparatively superficial knowledge of what is written in the pages.
Are you saying that there is some kind of hidden knowledge in the bible?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Are you saying that there is some kind of hidden knowledge in the bible?
No, I am saying depending upon what you believe there can be two kinds of knowledge derived from the bible.
If you believe the bible is an invention of men then you don't think it contains knowledge other than perhaps historical. To such a person, upon reading the story of Jesus they may find relevent knowledge that he existed but the parts about him being god and ascending into heaven would not be considered valid knowledge. He would be considered but a man and this a mythologized account of him.
If you believe the bible is a revelation from god then you view it as containing knowledge about the external world. And not only do you believe Jesus existed but that he did conquer death and he was god.
So, it depends upon how one reads it. Is it a collection of writing totally invented by men or is it a revelation from god?
Originally posted by Ytse
No, I am saying depending upon what you believe there can be two kinds of knowledge derived from the bible.If you believe the bible is an invention of men then you don't think it contains knowledge other than perhaps historical. To such a person, upon reading the story of Jesus they may find relevent knowledge that he existed but the parts about him being god and ascending into heaven would not be considered valid knowledge.
If you believe the bible is a revelation from god then you view it as containing knowledge about the external world. And not only do you believe Jesus existed but that he did conquer death and he was god.
So, it depends upon how one reads it. Is it a collection of writing totally invented by men or is it a revelation from god?
That is true even of Star Wars. Can't you see that your belief is creating a world view that is not based upon reality, but upon a book? That is what I am calling delusional.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is true even of Star Wars.
How is that true of Star Wars?
Can't you see that your belief is creating a world view that is not based upon reality, but upon a book?
Star Wars never makes any claims about reality at all. So, to believe it does is delusional.
The bible does make claims about reality, however. And I said to believers it isn't just "a book" it's a revelation from god.
Originally posted by YtseHow is that true of Star Wars?
Star Wars never makes any claims about reality at all. So, to believe it does is delusional.
The bible does make claims about reality, however. And I said to believers it isn't just "a book" it's a revelation from god. [/B]
Why do you think that the bible makes claims about reality? Star Wars never says that it it's true. We simple know that Star Wars is not true because it was written within our life time. However, let's for arguments sake, say that Star Wars was written 3,000 years ago. We wouldn’t know that Star Wars was written for entertainment.
Let me take this into a more realistic realm: Why is the bible truer then a book like the Koran? They both claim to reflect reality, and they both have a billion people who believe in what is written in the book.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why do you think that the bible makes claims about reality?
It names places, people, and events that have empirically shown to be real. It even refers to the adherents themselves. It claims to be part of a system of belief which still exists today, after thousands of years. Etc.
Star Wars never says that it it's true. We simple know that Star Wars is not true because it was written within our life time. However, let's for arguments sake, say that Star Wars was written 3,000 years ago. We wouldn’t know that Star Wars was written for entertainment.
Yes, Star Wars is obviously meant for entertainment. Even if it were discovered 3k years from now. The credits at the end would give it away.
Let me take this into a more realistic realm: Why is the bible truer then a book like the Koran? They both claim to reflect reality, and they both have a billion people who believe in what is written in the book.
It's not unless you believe it is. But I don't want to segue into a debate on Islam.
Originally posted by Ytse
It names places, people, and events that have empirically shown to be real. It even refers to the adherents themselves. It claims to be part of a system of belief which still exists today, after thousands of years. Etc.Yes, Star Wars is obviously meant for entertainment. Even if it were discovered 3k years from now. The credits at the end would give it away.
It's not unless you believe it is. But I don't want to segue into a debate on Islam.
Gone With The Wind is about events that have been shown to have happened (the Civil War). The details of the bible have not been proven to be true any more then Gone With The Wind.
How do we know that parts of the bible where not written for entertainment? The “back of the book” has been destroyed by time.
If the Bible is correct because you believe it, then the Koran is correct because you believe it.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Gone With The Wind is about events that have been shown to have happened (the Civil War).
Yes, but you've ignored everything else I said. Such as how the bible references Christianity and Christians, both of which are still around and have thousands of years of history.
The “back of the book” has been destroyed by time.
This is a claim you're going to have to prove.
If the Bible is correct because you believe it, then the Koran is correct because you believe it.
But I don't believe the Koran is correct so it's a nonissue here.
Originally posted by Ytse
Yes, but you've ignored everything else I said. Such as how the bible references Christianity and Christians, both of which are still around and have thousands of years of history.This is a claim you're going to have to prove.
But I don't believe the Koran is correct so it's a nonissue here.
The bible is no more true or false then is the koran.
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
No it's not, Muslimscholar and Fatima claim that the Quran is truth, and the Bible is a complete lie...
Yes, it is. Look at the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss the truthfulness or falseness of the Koran then make a new one.
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Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The bible is no more true or false then is the koran.
This is the very issue at hand. I say the bible is more truthful. A muslim says the koran is. And a secularist says neither.
Originally posted by Ytse
Yes, it is. Look at the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss the truthfulness or falseness of the Koran then make a new one.--------------------------------------------------------------
This is the very issue at hand. I say the bible is more truthful. A muslim says the koran is. And a secularist says neither.
I say that they are equal. I guess I'm none of the above. 😉