Originally posted by Dinalfos
Meh, I'd rather see Pak embracing Hulk's past for what it is and expand on the character from there, instead of explaining everything away.
doesn't kill unless it's necessary. doesn't mean he won't go ape shit on the ranch, just won't kill the rancher.
Originally posted by janus77
I don't think this is an attempt at wiping the slate clean, just showing that he's always got a line he won't cross.doesn't kill unless it's necessary. doesn't mean he won't go ape shit on the ranch, just won't kill the rancher.
Yeah, I know, but I still think that Pak should start moving the character forward again. He's been dwelling on the past for far too long now, basically only telling us that Hulk is a hero that helped saving the earth many times. Blah blah, we know all that. We don't need the friggin' flashbacks.
Alright, so this revelation is kinda new, but I don't like it. What's so wrong with Hulk having killed a few people in the past? I'd rather see him deal with that very fact by embracing it and then learning from it (or not!). Because what is Pak telling us now? That Hulk is basically innocent and misunderstood 🙄 Nobody actually believes that. He may have been innocent at one point (the old Savage Hulk), but that ended a long time ago.
not really. I think what he's saying is that The Hulk could have been worse, he's got his own ethics and morals. just that. he's not a monster. he doesn't kill out of rage, in fact he's never been really out of control unless he's been really mindless - in which case it "wasn't him".
I think the idea of Hulk is coming to more what I envision him as. phenomenal - godly - power, but a desire to just be left to his own devices, neither burdened with the superhero lark, nor feared and loathed as a monster...
he wants acceptance but refuses to accept that most humans will react with fear (and thus attack) first, and then slowly - slowly - come to some sort of accommodation.
think Pak's actually done a brilliant job of it.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Yeah, I know, but I still think that Pak should start moving the character forward again. He's been dwelling on the past for far too long now, basically only telling us that Hulk is a hero that helped saving the earth many times. Blah blah, we know all that. We don't need the friggin' flashbacks.
😂
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Alright, so this revelation is kinda new, but I don't like it. What's so wrong with Hulk having killed a few people in the past?
Well actually killing people has often been out of character for Hulk. Even prior to Cho's comments Hulk would do things like flee into the wilderness.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
I'd rather see him deal with that very fact by embracing it and then learning from it (or not!).
Well Pak did sort of address that. This Hulk seems to want to be seen as a killer. He does seem to embrace that part of his personality even though it's partially invented.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Because what is Pak telling us now? That Hulk is basically innocent and misunderstood 🙄 Nobody actually believes that. He may have been innocent at one point (the old Savage Hulk), but that ended a long time ago.
Yeah the list of people that Hulk killed and it didn't really count was a little overboard. However, it is still true that Hulk has generally been destructive more than he is a killer.
Originally posted by janus77
not really. I think what he's saying is that The Hulk could have been worse, he's got his own ethics and morals. just that. he's not a monster. he doesn't kill out of rage, in fact he's never been really out of control unless he's been really mindless - in which case it "wasn't him".I think the idea of Hulk is coming to more what I envision him as. phenomenal - godly - power, but a desire to just be left to his own devices, neither burdened with the superhero lark, nor feared and loathed as a monster...
he wants acceptance but refuses to accept that most humans will react with fear (and thus attack) first, and then slowly - slowly - come to some sort of accommodation.
think Pak's actually done a brilliant job of it.
I think I would like it more if Pak wasn't so damn apologetic about it. Just because he has that ability, doesn't mean he'll always succeed in not killing anyone.
It's also true that the current Hulk shouldn't be held accountable for what his more monstrous incarnations have done, but everyone in the MU is already aware of that. That's why didn't just kill him outright. That's why everyone feels quilty. That's why every decision they make feels like the wrong one, because Hulk can turn from a friend into a foe at the flip of a switch.
but that's where I'd disagree... he doesn't turn at the flick of a switch.
the old Hulk, the rampaging 'monster' wasn't a killer, ever - as far as I recall. he was always dangerous, no doubt, but then so are mutants... the whole mutants versus Human thing is basically the parallel that this addresses. instead of going Magneto and seeking to subjugate the puny humans, he's always sought to distance himself enough so that his other face, the one that humanity can work with, Banner could have some sort of human - alongside humanity - life.
I think that's the thing. Hulk realises that Banner is essentially who he wants to be, but he's angry with Banner's (in his PoV) shameless grovelling towards a humanity that rejects him (Hulk-Banner).
so it's pride and rage and also concern for the decent ideals of Banner... all of that twisted up into a ball and near impossible to separate out into their component strands.
think of it, any mutant can "flip at the flick of a switch", but they aren't getting anywhere near the attention that the Hulk gets from the military and from the illuminati.
it's because Hulk scares humans more, that he 'provokes' a more aggressive reaction and as a result, he gets more angry - though always with the ultimate safety on.
as for endangering the world... hmm, I'd say Reed Richards does it to a far greater degree with more arrogance too.
Hulk's a boon for the construction business, I think they should pool together and stump up a fund for his PR! ✅
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosWell actually killing people has often been out of character for Hulk. Even prior to Cho's comments Hulk would do things like flee into the wilderness.
But the Hulk has so many facets that EVERYTHING is basically in-character. He's not a killer by nature, of course, but that doesn't mean he never killed anyone. You can never be sure about anything that involves class 100 characters with 2 digit IQ's and MAJOR anger problems.
Well Pak did sort of address that. This Hulk seems to want to be seen as a killer. He does seem to embrace that part of his personality even though it's partially invented.
Yeah. We'll see how things develop.
Yeah the list of people that Hulk killed and it didn't really count was a little overboard. However, it is still true that Hulk has generally been destructive more than he is a killer. [/B]
Like I said, he's not a killer by nature, so he's doing the best he can to avoid it. But, you know, there are people with higher IQ's, far less power, less anger problems and less personalities who have failed where Hulk apparently succeeded (according to Pak). 😆
Originally posted by Dinalfos
But the Hulk has so many facets that EVERYTHING is basically in-character. He's not a killer by nature, of course, but that doesn't mean he never killed anyone. You can never be sure about anything that involves class 100 characters with 2 digit IQ's and MAJOR anger problems.
But if one actually looks though his past thats been the one thing that has managed to not be in character. Personally I've always credited that to Banner's influence rather than Hulk's personality, though.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Yeah. We'll see how things develop.
👆
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Like I said, he's not a killer by nature, so he's doing the best he can to avoid it. But, you know, there are people with far less power, less anger problems and less personalities who have failed where Hulk apparently succeeded (according to Pak). 😆
I'm not sure what you mean by succeed of fail here.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But if one actually looks though his past thats been the one thing that has managed to not be in character. Personally I've always credited that to Banner's influence rather than Hulk's personality, though.
There's a difference in being a "killer" and killing people. But yeah, it was mostly Bruce who mellowed him down.
I'm not sure what you mean by succeed of fail here.
Succeed in NOT killing people.
Originally posted by janus77
but that's where I'd disagree... he doesn't turn at the flick of a switch.
the old Hulk, the rampaging 'monster' wasn't a killer, ever - as far as I recall. he was always dangerous, no doubt, but then so are mutants... the whole mutants versus Human thing is basically the parallel that this addresses. instead of going Magneto and seeking to subjugate the puny humans, he's always sought to distance himself enough so that his other face, the one that humanity can work with, Banner could have some sort of human - alongside humanity - life.I think that's the thing. Hulk realises that Banner is essentially who he wants to be, but he's angry with Banner's (in his PoV) shameless grovelling towards a humanity that rejects him (Hulk-Banner).
so it's pride and rage and also concern for the decent ideals of Banner... all of that twisted up into a ball and near impossible to separate out into their component strands.
think of it, any mutant can "flip at the flick of a switch", but they aren't getting anywhere near the attention that the Hulk gets from the military and from the illuminati.
it's because Hulk scares humans more, that he 'provokes' a more aggressive reaction and as a result, he gets more angry - though always with the ultimate safety on.
as for endangering the world... hmm, I'd say Reed Richards does it to a far greater degree with more arrogance too.
Hulk's a boon for the construction business, I think they should pool together and stump up a fund for his PR! ✅
No, I understand the character, but it's just that that "ultimate safety" kinda ruins things a little. It makes him a little too clean and spotless for my tastes. He doesn't have to be a killer, though, and I don't have a problem with him not killing anyone most of the time. But with his kind of personality and behaviour, there's bound to be victims. Intentional or not. I think that's part of what makes him tragic.
Reed Richards, well, let's not even go there. He's a good guy, but...damn. 🙁
I think I see what you're getting at. you see the Hulk as a sort of belligerent character... doesn't care about the consequences of his actions, but doesn't go out to kill people either?
I guess I never saw him like that. there's a reason why he spoke like an innocent, when he was Savage Hulk - he had an innocent child's view of people; good people and people who attack Hulk.
and as you admit "(Richards) is a good guy, but ..." he's staggeringly arrogant. whereas Hulk's also arrogant (causing such extreme destruction whilst relying on his "calculating brain" to prevent fatalities) but it comes out when provoked. Reed's just a tinkerer... he'll never cease to push the envelope, and often he'll cause unforeseen consequences (ala World War Hulk) because he thinks he's smarter than he is.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Succeed in NOT killing people.
OK. But the only person for whom not killing would be a feat is Hulk or someone with that kind of instability.
It's impressive for someone who's almost nothing but anger to not kill. But if I walked into the office and announced that I didn't kill anyone on my way there, people would be wondering why I felt a need to tell them that.
Originally posted by janus77
I think I see what you're getting at. you see the Hulk as a sort of belligerent character... doesn't care about the consequences of his actions, but doesn't go out to kill people either?I guess I never saw him like that. there's a reason why he spoke like an innocent, when he was Savage Hulk - he had an innocent child's view of people; good people and people who attack Hulk.
and as you admit "(Richards) is a good guy, but ..." he's staggeringly arrogant. whereas Hulk's also arrogant (causing such extreme destruction whilst relying on his "calculating brain" to prevent fatalities) but it comes out when provoked. Reed's just a tinkerer... he'll never cease to push the envelope, and often he'll cause unforeseen consequences (ala World War Hulk) because he thinks he's smarter than he is.
No, Hulk cares deep down, but sometimes he can't help himself. He's a very confused child with WAY too much power. It's just that he isn't aware of all the possible consequences of his little anger bursts. Not when he's enraged.
Btw, it's kind of funny that even Mindless Hulk from the Crossroad saga showed remarkable (and arguably superhuman) mathematical knowledge and precision. In fact, he has way more skills than he himself cares to know or even think about. So I can see where Pak is coming from with this new twist. But still, it's a little far fetched for him to use it to prevent victims during a raging smash-a-thon.
As for Reed, he's simply too human to handle that level of insane intelligence. I don't even think he's all that arrogant (for a first rate scientist), just far more socially inept than he and others like to believe. A bad case of tunnel vision, I think.
Now Tony Stark, that dude is stupefyingly arrogant.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
OK. But the only person for whom not killing would be a feat is Hulk or someone with that kind of instability.It's impressive for someone who's almost nothing but anger to not kill. But if I walked into the office and announced that I didn't kill anyone on my way there, people would be wondering why I felt a need to tell them that.
You call that impressive, but when you factor in his abnormal strength and his limited intellectual and reasoning abilities as well, it becomes a tad unlikely.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
No, Hulk cares deep down, but sometimes he can't help himself. He's a very confused child with WAY too much power. It's just that he isn't aware of all the possible consequences of his little anger bursts. Not when he's enraged.Btw, it's kind of funny that even Mindless Hulk from the Crossroad saga showed remarkable (and arguably superhuman) mathematical knowledge and precision. In fact, he has way more skills than he himself cares to know or even think about. So I can see where Pak is coming from with this new twist. But still, it's a little far fetched for him to use it to prevent victims during a raging smash-a-thon.
As for Reed, he's simply too human to handle that level of insane intelligence. I don't even think he's all that arrogant (for a first rate scientist), just far more socially inept than he and others like to believe. A bad case of tunnel vision, I think.
Now Tony Stark, that dude is stupefyingly arrogant.
now obviously, the audience couldn't come to care about a character who was a walking emotional nuclear bomb, ready to lay waste to innocent bystanders whenever he's ticked off a bit, so they (the various writers over the years) had to make sure there wasn't any 'collateral damage'... and Pak's use of the latent potential - the genius of the Banner persona - in Hulk, imo is fantastic.
it's a much more comprehensive picture than say - "Savage Hulk's just an emotionally challenged kid", and having "WWH" come to accept that he's made 'mistakes' in the past and that he's got anger issues to work over (or something along similar lines).
this answers the lack of body count, the fact of Hulk's staggeringly accurate aim, leaping, navigation etc and that Hulk is, at the end of the day, sharing brain/mind-space with a super-genius and that persona doesn't go away totally - unless external actors attempt to separate them.
I say Reed's dangerously arrogant because he has endangered the world, caused phenomenal destruction by-way of "unintended consequences"... the fallout from a Reed Richards' screw-up is normally far greater than that from a 'Hulk-out'.
definitely agree about Ironman... but at least he's more into womanising and being a bastard than messing with forces beyond his ken (well, until he got the idea to launch the Hulk into space ...).
Originally posted by Dinalfos
You call that impressive, but when you factor in his abnormal strength and his limited intellectual and reasoning abilities as well, it becomes a tad unlikely.
For things like destroying the Avenger's HQ and the BaxterBuilding I agree. When he's knocking down buildings it's far fetched to say that he's somehow calculating a way to do it that won't kill anybody (Banner or even Reed should be incapable of doing that on the fly).
But during a rampage I think it's possible (with some stretch of the imagination) for Hulk to be fighting in such a way as to minimize causalities even though it's not apparent.
Originally posted by janus77
Cho stops rhinos with well placed grapes!
😂
Originally posted by janus77
couldn't it just be that this is "supergenius", just like everything else... Cho's abilities and such?
I doesn't matter how smart you are. When taking down a building it's impossible to prevent casualties unless you know the layout. Even if you do know the layout the sheer number of factors involved would stretch anyone's capacity to deal with.
The implication that Hulk is tapping into Banner's latent intellect for something like that is ridiculous.
Cho said it, not me... I'm still trying to figure out just where he lodges that grape 😕.
nah, I know it's ridiculous but, nobody ever dies - not one stray civilian. this is the best way to explain it. give Hulk a gamma brain! 😂 seriously though, Cho's stunt with the pebble was hilarious and it's kinda the same nature.
I'll buy the Banner brain calculating everything such that not one innocent is harmed (though all maybe endangered at some point or other)... I'm buying a gamma bomb created Green Goliath, aren't I?
Originally posted by janus77
but the "sometimes he can't help himself..." would of necessity result in a huge death toll, over the years. it has not. so something is definitely going on there.
Oh when it comes to the usual rampages and battles against humans, I agree. But there are instances where Hulk was about to attack or kill his opponent and something or someone (or a plot device) intervened. Of course, he regretted all of it, but it shows that his control over himself fluctuates heavily.
now obviously, the audience couldn't come to care about a character who was a walking emotional nuclear bomb, ready to lay waste to innocent bystanders whenever he's ticked off a bit, so they (the various writers over the years) had to make sure there wasn't any 'collateral damage'... and Pak's use of the latent potential - the genius of the Banner persona - in Hulk, imo is fantastic.it's a much more comprehensive picture than say - "Savage Hulk's just an emotionally challenged kid", and having "WWH" come to accept that he's made 'mistakes' in the past and that he's got anger issues to work over (or something along similar lines).
I think the writers kinda ignored the subject of collateral damage in the same way they ignored the purple pants. Well, not really, but whatever. We all know he isn't the killer type, but some of his smashings are written and drawn in such a way that it looks dangerous, but still allows the reader to assume that nobody is really hurt. That's fine with me. But Pak's new theory is organized so that it explains everything without him having to put any real thought into it. It feels a bit cheap. Sure, there are plenty of interesting ways to explore it, but it's not what I hoped.
this answers the lack of body count, the fact of Hulk's staggeringly accurate aim, leaping, navigation etc and that Hulk is, at the end of the day, sharing brain/mind-space with a super-genius and that persona doesn't go away totally - unless external actors attempt to separate them.
Yeah, but that's really nothing new. What's new (to us) is that his blind rage apparently doesn't obstruct his empathic abilities at all.
I say Reed's dangerously arrogant because he has endangered the world, caused phenomenal destruction by-way of "unintended consequences"... the fallout from a Reed Richards' screw-up is normally far greater than that from a 'Hulk-out'.definitely agree about Ironman... but at least he's more into womanising and being a bastard than messing with forces beyond his ken (well, until he got the idea to launch the Hulk into space ...).
Yes, Reed's mistakes could potentially have greater consequences because he, more than any other person in the MU, is held fully accountable for everything he does. Rightfully so. But that doesn't necessarily make him MORE arrogant than, say Tony Stark. It's just that he can't really afford to be even a little arrogant. And that's his problem right there.
In a childlike sort of way, hulk's petty (but endearing) arrogance dwarfs that of most others. Hell, he doesn't even hide it 😄 But I agree, Reed is morally responsible for many a fiasco in the MU, so his arrogance proofs to be more harmful.
Tony is the very definition of stereotypical human arrogance and far, far worse than Reed, but he can "afford" it. That's the difference.