Pre-Crisis Superman vs Odin

Originally posted by Allankles
The Maker was mortal and was no longer immune to damage so that doesn't prove anything. PC Superman could hurt her too.

A depowered Tyrant isn't PC Supes who could sneeze a solar system away and could move galaxies with TK.

He only just survived an Odin who didn't consider him much of a threat since he didn't even bring out the big toys to handled Thanos, who was doing his absolute best not to get blown away.

PC Superman would be all over him, not pulling any dimension shattering punches. Not to mention that PC Superman had versatile energy projection as well, on top of the huge strength and speed advantage he has over Thanos.

And please, PC Superman is well above top tier, he has every advantage over Thanos and would grind the Titan to submission.

PC Supes moved Galaxies with TK, I thought that was Supes 1million and he held back a galaxy?

Originally posted by Mindset
PC Supes moved Galaxies with TK, I thought that was Supes 1million and he held back a galaxy?

I know what you're talking about (I was extending the feat to PC Supes because t of their similarities). Besides Pre Crisis Superman created solar systems, drained stars of all their energy, sneezed solar systems away etc.

EDIT: He also moved planets with ease some times in numbers.

Originally posted by h1a8
SS never has FTL reflexes. Otherwise he wouldn't get hit by slower moving beings in battle all the time. Where's his FTL reflexes then?

He if has them then he certainly doesn't use them all the time.
Thus you can't use that stupid logic about Odin being able to blast him means something.

He has got FTL reflexes im not going to bother to find them so you can fob them off. Even Thanos of Titan that he has FTL reflexes. It could damn well be argued whne fighting less powerful opponents sometimes he doesnt use it but when fighting powerful opponents this is when we tend to see these feats and Odin is very powerful.

Originally posted by h1a8
The Odin force doesn't give odin anything but Odin force.
Odin is class 90, nothing more. He may be able to use the Odin force to amp himself though (needs proof though). But anyway he won't get to amp here as Supes will fock him up before a nanosecond elapses.

Odin has vast magical powers. Superman has a great weakness to it.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's fun debating with you. This is where we disagree.

It certainly is where we disagree.

Originally posted by h1a8

You say that being in character implies (or means) consistency.
I say that being in character implies permissibleness.
Thus we have to agree to disagree here.

Fighting to the full extent of one's abilities implies permission to use a full powerset. The frequency of this usage is governed by how a character has been shown to utilise it. You are either misunderstanding what "in character" means, or you are equating two different concepts. Your "permissibleness" is related to the first stipulation, which is fighting to the full extent of one's abilities.

Originally posted by h1a8

I'm not understanding you here. But anyway, if the OP stated bloodlust then we wouldn't be having this discussion, lol.

Apparently there isn't the bloodlust stipulation, which is assumed to be off unless specifically stated to apply. What I meant was with regards to this quote:
[/quote]
So I'm saying that "out of character" implies something never done by a character under normal circumstances (like being mind controlled). But if a character has done it once under normal circumstances then it is in character for them to do it here [/quote]

Not having extenuating factors (ie mind control etc) does not automatically qualify all other circumstances as "in character", as the latter obviously implies intrinsic character limitations. This works the same way as a statement saying that "if something isn't right, it must be wrong", which obviously isn't logically true. Just ask philosophers.

Originally posted by h1a8

There is a difference between never doing something and rarely doing something. I say that if a character never did something (like SM hitting to kill) then it is not in character for them to do it at anytime. You say that if a character rarely does something then it is not in character if they choose to do it again. See the faultiness of your logic? If it is not in a character to do something then they would've never have done it before ever.

There is a difference between what you are implying I said, and what I actually said. What I am saying is that a character who has done a move once, or even thrice for that matter, in his life, cannot be reliably expected to repeat it on a consistent basis. Not because it is too difficult to replicate (although this is certainly a possible reason), but because of character limitations as well. If Batman were to use a gun for some reason, going against his entire ethos, do we expect him to use a gum in every forum battle from then on? It is possible, as he has done so before, just very improbable.

Originally posted by h1a8
I didn't claim that warp speed=light speed. Obviously SS is always accelerating when he tries to travel fast. Thus if he reaches light speed then it is only at an instant.

If you did not claim that warp speed is equal to light speed, I fail to understand how you understood that SS was not at light speed, as the only frame of reference was "warp speed", which could be many multiples of light speed.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm in no way saying that SS isn't fast as hell. I'm saying that after two seconds of travel SS can obtain infinite speed for all I care. I have no problem with that. Its just that he's a slow starter (according to Superman Time).

As I see it, you haven't really proven anything yet. Certainly nothing with regards to Superman doing better consistently.

Originally posted by h1a8
SS by the panel is about 500-1000m away in 1 sec. This is bullet speed. A human is barely visible (if at all)
at 1000m away. SS is clearly visible in the image thus he has to be 1000m away or less.

I have seen planets and humans on the same panel. Heck, even Superman was visible in OWAW. Once again, I see no concrete evidence. I am only interested in figures substantiating your claims.

Originally posted by h1a8

SS has cosmic awareness. You must have forgotten that. He has at times been aware of beings and forces many light years away. The scan was bad writing if anything. SS don't need to travel anywhere to know where someone is.

If I could go as fast as SS could, there won't be a difference between scanning and searching. I still see no proof that CA was used, versus an implication that a physical search was performed.

Originally posted by h1a8
But my friend this is where you are certainly wrong.
Light travels 186,282 miles per second. The Earth is about 25,000 miles around the equator. Thus light can cirle the equator a little more than 7 in a second. Now adding an altitude and it takes 6-7 trips in a second (depending on the altitude). So how are my calculations wrong? But anyway give SS some amount of cosmic awareness here. He's obviously is not going to need to cover every point on the Earth to search for someone. But all of that is moot anyway as I said that SS can reach infinite speed for all I care. For this is not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that under a second or two SS is slow (in Superman's eyes of course). After that second he can move across the universe for all I care.

Because unless you assume that SS covered only circumferences, the rest of his coverages would be shorter than earth's circumference. However, it is fine with me if you persist, as that simply makes the feat better. Also, you do realise that nothing in that scan shows that SS was unable to hit light speed in a couple of seconds? Once again, inferences without references. Once again, talk of Superman, but absolutely no panel proof.

Originally posted by h1a8
That scan shows nothing. It doesn't even show that SS obtained light speed. Saying I can do something doesn't mean that I am doing it. Plus how do you know it wasn't more than a second before he assumingly reached light speed. I mean he was already flying through space possibly increasing his speed before his comment.

According to you and you alone, the course of action is to assume that SS was telling a blatant lie when it is more logical to equate an obvious speed feat with the narration? It isn't one of those panels where hyperbole may be involved. It is simply a character stating that he can do something, and then being artistically shown to do so. You can argue otherwise, but I will henceforth reject all showings that you present that do not have numerical, on-panel proof. Pick your poison.

Originally posted by h1a8

Later. But I'm not claiming this. I'm claiming that SS is a slow starter by your logic.

That's right. You are claiming, and only claiming. You sure as anything aren't proving anything.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are using the classic case of equivocation, which is a form of ambiguity. You are asking me to explain how the Onslaught feat was not physical when it actually was (in the context you are using). My argument is that Onslaught wasn't physical in the since of matter. My argument was also that sufficient psionics (whether solid or not) is like kryptonite to Juggs. But I'm mostly likely wrong there. I don't know why I thought that. I must have seen it somewhere.

Equivocation, when the only person that attempted to bring actual physics into this was you?

Your argument was that Onslaught was encased by psionic armour, which Juggernaut was supposedly weak to. Apparently not.

Hence, you moved to suppose that energy (light) can actually perform physical feats. Being unable to correlate, as I astutely predicted, you are now calling shenanigans.

I have always said that the feat was physical. You were the one stating that it had to do with Juggernaut's weakness against psionics.

I ask you again. Where was it not physical?

Odin has destroyed galaxies from fighting with another skyfather, he also has vast magical powers which pc supes is weak against, Odin wins.

Originally posted by Allankles
The Maker was mortal and was no longer immune to damage so that doesn't prove anything. PC Superman could hurt her too.

A depowered Tyrant isn't PC Supes who could sneeze a solar system away and could move galaxies with TK.

He only just survived an Odin who didn't consider him much of a threat since he didn't even bring out the big toys to handled Thanos, who was doing his absolute best not to get blown away.

PC Superman would be all over him, not pulling any dimension shattering punches. Not to mention that PC Superman had versatile energy projection as well, on top of the huge strength and speed advantage he has over Thanos.

And please, PC Superman is well above top tier, he has every advantage over Thanos and would grind the Titan to submission.

A depowered Tyrant can dominate Galactus while a pc Supes could get raped by a well fed Galactus.

Odin fought Thanos before his final upgrade. He pulled out gungir and Thanos chraged right through these blasts.

Thanos is way above any top tier. Darkseid dominated Supes when he was pc and Darkseid hasnt been depowered at all by the crisis.

Thanos has the durability edge,the intellectual edge,and the brawling edge as well.

Again he easily defeated a being with infinite power. Supes is toast.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are speculating that superman could defeat the Maker. When has he mindraped anyone?

A depowered Tyrant can dominate Galactus while a pc Supes could get raped by a well fed Galactus.

Odin fought Thanos before his final upgrade. He pulled out gungir and Thanos chraged right through these blasts.

Thanos is way above any top tier. Darkseid dominated Supes when he was pc and Darkseid hasnt been depowered at all by the crisis.

Thanos has the durability edge,the intellectual edge,and the brawling edge as well.

Again he easily defeated a being with infinite power. Supes is toast.

you constantly say thanos would mind rape him? superman has insanely powerful mental defenses even despero had trouble breaching them

u say thanos can take whatever pc supes can dish out? heat vision which is many times hotter then the sun? physical strenght to tow a chain of 15 planets with ease? all coming at thanos at insane speed?

i like thanos to but your not giving him alot of options here buddy

i understand that your new to comics but come on man do some research before you speak

all pc supes has to do is flick thanos in the head then thanos brain becomes jello

Originally posted by batosaims
im sorry if you actually believe thanos could even last more then 3 seconds against pc supes you really need help

you constantly say thanos would mind rape him? superman has insanely powerful mental defenses even despero had trouble breaching them

u say thanos can take whatever pc supes can dish out? heat vision which is many times hotter then the sun? physical strenght to tow a chain of 15 planets with ease? all coming at thanos at insane speed?

i like thanos to but your not giving him alot of options here buddy

i understand that your new to comics but come on man do some research before you speak

all pc supes has to do is flick thanos in the head then thanos brain becomes jello

So you admit they can be breached.

Thanos has survived Odin's blasts,Tyrant's blasts,and the Maker's blasts. He will defeat pc Supes who is less powerful than all three.

Originally posted by Ouallada

Fighting to the full extent of one's abilities implies permission to use a full powerset. The frequency of this usage is governed by how a character has been shown to utilise it. You are either misunderstanding what "in character" means, or you are equating two different concepts. Your "permissibleness" is related to the first stipulation, which is fighting to the full extent of one's abilities.

There is a difference between never doing something and rarely doing something. I say that if a character never did something (like SM hitting to kill) then it is not in character for them to do it at anytime. You say that if a character rarely does something then it is not in character if they choose to do it again. See the faultiness of your logic? If it is not in a character to do something then they would've never have done it before ever.

There is a difference between what you are implying I said, and what I actually said. What I am saying is that a character who has done a move once, or even thrice for that matter, in his life, cannot be reliably expected to repeat it on a consistent basis. Not because it is too difficult to replicate (although this is certainly a possible reason), but because of character limitations as well. If Batman were to use a gun for some reason, going against his entire ethos, do we expect him to use a gum in every forum battle from then on? It is possible, as he has done so before, just very improbable.

If you did not claim that warp speed is equal to light speed, I fail to understand how you understood that SS was not at light speed, as the only frame of reference was "warp speed", which could be many multiples of light speed.

I have seen planets and humans on the same panel. Heck, even Superman was visible in OWAW. Once again, I see no concrete evidence. I am only interested in figures substantiating your claims.

If I could go as fast as SS could, there won't be a difference between scanning and searching. I still see no proof that CA was used, versus an implication that a physical search was performed.

Because unless you assume that SS covered only circumferences, the rest of his coverages would be shorter than earth's circumference. However, it is fine with me if you persist, as that simply makes the feat better. Also, you do realise that nothing in that scan shows that SS was unable to hit light speed in a couple of seconds? Once again, inferences without references. Once again, talk of Superman, but absolutely no panel proof.

According to you and you alone, the course of action is to assume that SS was telling a blatant lie when it is more logical to equate an obvious speed feat with the narration? It isn't one of those panels where hyperbole may be involved. It is simply a character stating that he can do something, and then being artistically shown to do so. You can argue otherwise, but I will henceforth reject all showings that you present that do not have numerical, on-panel proof. Pick your poison.

And lastly this is a forum fight. No one cares how often a character performed a given strategy to prove that he will do it in the fight at question. Just about everyone here including the best debaters like Soljer, Goober, Metalmanx, and even Quanchi use feats that a character rarely performs to show that a character will win because of that strategy. You are the only one here that's different.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Equivocation, when the only person that attempted to bring actual physics into this was you?

Your argument was that Onslaught was encased by psionic armour, which Juggernaut was supposedly weak to. Apparently not.

Hence, you moved to suppose that energy (light) can actually perform physical feats. Being unable to correlate, as I astutely predicted, you are now calling shenanigans.

I have always said that the feat was physical. You were the one stating that it had to do with Juggernaut's weakness against psionics.

I ask you again. Where was it not physical?

In the context you are using, yes.
Magic and Psionic energy can also be physical in that same context too.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Again Thanos could handle a being with infinite power while Supermans power is very finite.

So you admit they can be breached.

Thanos has survived Odin's blasts,Tyrant's blasts,and the Maker's blasts. He will defeat pc Supes who is less powerful than all three.

And you're assuming that Thanos will just get blasted a few times and then get all the time in the world to launch an attack of his own.

The only reason PC Supes would go down to Odin's attacks is that they're magical otherwise I'd give him a good shot of taking them as well.

As far as the Maker goes she was mortal, (her powers and durability had undergone a down grade).

Superman could take her energy attacks as well, it doesn't prove anything.

Beyond this Thanos can bleed and get damaged from direct physical attack, Superman is a lot faster and a whole lot stronger, not to mention that Thanos doesn't have the specific powerset to give PC Superman problems and you have a curbstomped Thanos.

If we take into account just amount of raw physical force PC Supes has displayed and how fast he can move, Thanos isn't even laying a finger. Didnt gemora blitz thanos?

No.

Im pretty sure she did guy, check the issue again she blitz him.

I'm almost willing to bet that you don't even know what the series is that it came from... let alone the issue.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Im pretty sure she did guy, check the issue again she blitz him.

I have a feeling she didn't speedblitz him she just dodged some of his attacks. Thats not speedblitzing.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
If we take into account just amount of raw physical force PC Supes has displayed and how fast he can move, Thanos isn't even laying a finger. Didnt gemora blitz thanos?

Originally posted by Allankles
And you're assuming that Thanos will just get blasted a few times and then get all the time in the world to launch an attack of his own.

The only reason PC Supes would go down to Odin's attacks is that they're magical otherwise I'd give him a good shot of taking them as well.

As far as the Maker goes she was mortal, (her powers and durability had undergone a down grade).

Superman could take her energy attacks as well, it doesn't prove anything.

Beyond this Thanos can bleed and get damaged from direct physical attack, Superman is a lot faster and a whole lot stronger, not to mention that Thanos doesn't have the specific powerset to give PC Superman problems and you have a curbstomped Thanos.

Odin's blasts are greater than anything Superman has in his arsenal.

Maker was weaker but still had infinite power while Thanos played wit her and hurt her physically before he mindraped her. He easily dealt with a being with infinite power.

You are speculating that Superman could take her attacks. Supes could also not defeat her and kill her and if he did her essence wouldnt have any limitations. Thanos knew not to kill her. Supes cant mindrape her. 😄

No one killed Thanos physically except Drax who is his knite so to speak. Supes gets waxed here.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos would and could hang with Supes for a long time. Odin didnt put down Thanos and this was before his final upgrade.

Odin's blasts are greater than anything Superman has in his arsenal.

Maker was weaker but still had infinite power while Thanos played wit her and hurt her physically before he mindraped her. He easily dealt with a being with infinite power.

You are speculating that Superman could take her attacks. Supes could also not defeat her and kill her and if he did her essence wouldnt have any limitations. Thanos knew not to kill her. Supes cant mindrape her. 😄

No one killed Thanos physically except Drax who is his knite so to speak. Supes gets waxed here.

Odin's blast weren't all that great if Thanos was standing up to them. They certainly didn't resemble anything close to dimension shattering punches. Thanos can be wounded physically, as well so he isn't standing up to those kind of blows for long.

Infinite power? It would be wise to recognize hyperbole my friend. If Makers blasts possessed infinte power, Thanos wouldn't have stood up to them. 'Infinte' gets used so often in comics it loses its meaning.

And please learn to recognize what I'm saying, I'll use a few checks to better clarify where I'm coming from.

PC Superman versatile energy projection - check
Overwhelming speed advantage - check
Overwhelming strength advantage - check
Great resistance to psionic (and largely telepathic attacks) - check
Uber resistance to energy attacks - check.

So Thanos doesn't have the physical arsenal to keep up with Superman and given that PC Supes durability to energy based attacks is extremely high, even if Thanos hits him, the damage PC Superman will sustain is far less than what Thanos would sustain, because of the vast difference in speed.

If they were written in a comic according to their abilities, Thanos would be teleporting himself to the place furthest from, realizing - after the first salvo - that he is the clearly over matched. As you can see, I give Thanos' intelligence a lot of credit.