Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway Odin has taken out SS out with ease who has FTL reflexes.I also think Odins powerset enables him to percieve reality differently so he would be able to percieve cosmic speedsters.
SS didn't use his 'so called' FTL reflexes against Odin. But no worries, comics nearly always have characters fighting away from their fullest potential.
And speculation is not proof.
Originally posted by ultimatethor
I havent really read the argument going on here but this is a complete lie. Only God knows where you are getting it from.
Alright Mr. Man.
Then please show me another time besides the IG saga where SS reached light speed or beyond in less than a second. Put your word "lie" to the test.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Exactly. Great galen is twisting this scan and its obvious.
Dude.In. His. Own. Words. They are only sealing the warp that bridges these two worlds. It's in black and white! He says it himself! Is PC Superman lying or something?! Look for yourself:
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Precrisis/?action=view¤t=maaldor14.jpg
Originally posted by AllanklesThanos rapes top tiers with speed such as the Surfer and Fallen One.
His energy attacks aren't stopping Superman on most occasions. 1) Due to the speed factor and 2) Because PC Supes had an ungodly resistant to energy attacks. Launching Galactus doesn't mean anything, that's just physics (you know, force of attack vs the power of gravity).As far as the maker goes wasn't she mortal? Meaning she could be hurt by Thanos energy attacks, it doesn't say anything about PC Superman's great durability against energy attacks.
Lastly, PC Superman had the ability to resist TP, I believe there's a respect thread somewhere with an example of Superman resisting a high end telepath with just the strength of his mind. PC Superman was immune to telepathy.
Thanos can hurt beings with infinite power who was the Maker. He took her attacks and actually injured her. Show me Supes easily defeating someone with infinite power.
Again Thanos would never be put down by pc Supes due to his history of feats and hanging with Odin and Tyrant before his final upgrade.
Thanos would dominate him.
Originally posted by h1a8
I retract nothing. Thor will godblast everytime in a forum fight if it is the only feasible way for him to win. Just because Thor isn't in the wording anymore doesn't mean the idea of him doing that is not allowed. The idea still exists; jusk ask Digi or any other mod that has been here a while. If the high feats are sufficient in number then that is when the character was "fighting to their fullest ability", as the rule says.Again, being in character has nothing to do with the chance that a character will do something. Being in character implies that it is possible, by that character's character, for him to do something. And by it being possible along with the character having to fight at his best
forces Thor to godblast in every fight if that is a feasible way to win.SS arguably hit light speed and beyond in under a second once. I challenge you to show me where he did it more than that one time. Use no speculation, but raw fact that SS reached light speed or beyond in under a second. There are countless examples where SS didn't reach light speed in the first second or two. I am not saying that he has never done it. I'm just saying that by your logic he can't do it for it would contradict the 99% of his entire history. So you or no one else can cherry pick that specific feat to prove a point (according to you).
And lastly it is impossible to use averages. No one ever in the history of this forum says "since X done both A and C then X will do B (the inbetween) in this fight". No, people use specific feats to back up their claims. People show that X did Y to prove that they can do it in the forum battle.
Fighting to the fullest extent of a character's abilities means that a character uses his full powerset. It doesn't mean that said character is likely to use a move if history dictates against this. I can certainly understand the ruling on Flash, but Thor not using his Godblast is very different from the PIS that is Flash not using speed, his one true asset, more often.
Your definition of being in character, "that it is possible, by that character's character, for him to do something" is along the lines of my definition, but if I were to say SS by transmutation a second after the battle starts, it would certainly not be in character, as the character's history shows. The same applies for assuming that Spiderman hits to kill at once in forum fights. All you are insisting on right now is that "fighting to one's fullest ability" overrides the "in character" stipulation. I am postulating that they can co-exist without being mutually exclusive.
There are plenty of examples in which SS has been stated to travel light years in seconds. As a light year refers to the distance light travels in a year, you can do the math. If you're asking for panels in which numerical speed feats show that SS has gone FTL from 0 in a second, I'm afraid to say that like 99% of other speed feats, measurements of speed are absent. I am interested in seeing your calculations for the grandmaster incident, and examples of the "countless" times in which SS did not reach light speed in a second or two. With numerical on-panel proof, of course. I am also waiting for your proof that the majority of Superman's feats while starting from 0 are faster than SS'.
If by no one, you exclude every single person who has contributed to hierarchy threads, you are right. Until then, DS is at trans level even though he has feats both above and below. Guess why? Yup. An average of the culmination of his feats.
Originally posted by h1a8
There are many definitions to nearly all words. You just can't pick out the definition that suits you to define a word. You just can't pick a dictionary to do so either. For all dictionaries are not accurate.We must use the same definition and use several dictionaries (if we still don't see eye to eye).
The dictionary I read from says "having to do with the [B]material
world". And "material" means "having to do with matter". But we all know that matter is made up of atoms or at least subatomic particles right?Do you know that light itself has momentum and can push and move something physically? But according to the definition of physics light has no mass and thus it isn't made out of matter. Gravity and Magnetism are other examples too. [/B]
No offense, but between a dictionary and yourself, I would trust a dictionary. Any dictionary.
I've done my physics, and am acquainted enough with Planck, Compton and company, and unless you are in the running for the next nobel prize, my money is on you being unable to correlate Psylocke's blade with physics, nor you being able to correlate Compton's Effect with a physical feat.
When you fail to do so, explain where Onslaught's feat was not physical.
Originally posted by h1a8
SS didn't use his 'so called' FTL reflexes against Odin. But no worries, comics nearly always have characters fighting away from their fullest potential.And speculation is not proof.
Hes doesn't have to use anything for God sake he always has FTL reflexes he wasn't fast enough to dodge the attack. Stop making excuses.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeYou cant be serious. 😐
Neither Odin nor Thanos nor both together would stand a chance. Thanos is an Monster, Odin freaking powerful but PC Superman was just plain stupid overpowered. Superboy-Prime would kill Thanos and Odin together and he is just an shade of what PC Superman was at his best.
Originally posted by OualladaIt is in Thor's power set to use his Godblast. Thus he would use his full powerset.
Fighting to the fullest extent of a character's abilities means that a character uses his full powerset. It doesn't mean that said character is likely to use a move if history dictates against this. I can certainly understand the ruling on Flash, but Thor not using his Godblast is very different from the PIS that is Flash not using speed, his one true asset, more often.
Spiderman hitting to kill is indeed not in his character (unless the being is on his level or above). But this is why we have Bloodlust. Bloodlust makes characters do what they wouldn't ever do in a fight. So I'm saying that "out of character" implies something never done by a character under normal circumstances (like being mind controlled). But if a character has done it once under normal circumstances then it is in character for them to do it here.
Your definition of being in character, "that it is possible, by that character's character, for him to do something" is along the lines of my definition, but if I were to say SS by transmutation a second after the battle starts, it would certainly not be in character, as the character's history shows. The same applies for assuming that Spiderman hits to kill at once in forum fights. All you are insisting on right now is that "fighting to one's fullest ability" overrides the "in character" stipulation. I am postulating that they can co-exist without being mutually exclusive.
'Seconds' is ambiguous. Seconds can be 20 seconds or more for all we know. SS has plenty proof that it takes him seconds to hit warp speed under normal circumstances.
There are plenty of examples in which SS has been stated to travel light years in seconds. As a light year refers to the distance light travels in a year, you can do the math. If you're asking for panels in which numerical speed feats show that SS has gone FTL from 0 in a second, I'm afraid to say that like 99% of other speed feats, measurements of speed are absent. I am interested in seeing your calculations for the grandmaster incident, and examples of the "countless" times in which SS did not reach light speed in a second or two. With numerical on-panel proof, of course. I am also waiting for your proof that the majority of Superman's feats while starting from 0 are faster than SS'.
The Yes the Grandmaster feat, he travels about 500-1000m in one second (This is bullet speed).
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/...80090910wh9.jpg
Do you know how fast light is? It can travel around the Earth 6-7times in a second. When Strange says "I PRAY THE SURFER LOCATES OUR"
two seconds passes. That means SS could go around the planet as many times as he wants after he exceeds lightspeed. SS returns at least 5 seconds later after his initial departure. So he had 3 seconds of faster than light travel in the search. It is possible that he scanned the whole planet from a distance thoroughly and then came back though. Here look:
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7694/silversurferannual0508tc4.jpg
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hes doesn't have to use anything for God sake he always has FTL reflexes he wasn't fast enough to dodge the attack. Stop making excuses.
SS never has FTL reflexes. Otherwise he wouldn't get hit by slower moving beings in battle all the time. Where's his FTL reflexes then?
He if has them then he certainly doesn't use them all the time.
Thus you can't use that stupid logic about Odin being able to blast him means something.
Originally posted by Ouallada
No offense, but between a dictionary and yourself, I would trust a dictionary. Any dictionary.I've done my physics, and am acquainted enough with Planck, Compton and company, and unless you are in the running for the next nobel prize, my money is on you being unable to correlate Psylocke's blade with physics, nor you being able to correlate Compton's Effect with a physical feat.
When you fail to do so, explain where Onslaught's feat was not physical.
Let's just drop this since you are referring to a different "Physical" than I am. Note: there are at least 4 different definitions of the word in your average dictionary.
But Juggs is not vulnerable to non mental psionics anyway. So why are we still talking about the Onslaught feat?
Originally posted by h1a8
It is in Thor's power set to use his Godblast. Thus he would use his full powerset.Spiderman hitting to kill is indeed not in his character (unless the being is on his level or above). But this is why we have Bloodlust. Bloodlust makes characters do what they wouldn't ever do in a fight. So I'm saying that "out of character" implies something never done by a character under normal circumstances (like being mind controlled). But if a character has done it once under normal circumstances then it is in character for them to do it here.
'Seconds' is ambiguous. Seconds can be 20 seconds or more for all we know. SS has plenty proof that it takes him seconds to hit warp speed under normal circumstances.
Here's a few:
Reaches warp speed in many seconds of talking
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/...rvol3006us8.jpgThe Yes the Grandmaster feat, he travels about 500-1000m in one second (This is bullet speed).
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/...80090910wh9.jpgDo you know how fast light is? It can travel around the Earth 6-7times in a second. When Strange says "I PRAY THE SURFER LOCATES OUR"
two seconds passes. That means SS could go around the planet as many times as he wants after he exceeds lightspeed. SS returns at least 5 seconds later after his initial departure. So he had 3 seconds of faster than light travel in the search. It is possible that he scanned the whole planet from a distance thoroughly and then came back though. Here look:
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7694/silversurferannual0508tc4.jpg
It is in his powerset to godblast. Simply not within his character to do so on a consistent basis. Years of comics are evidence enough.
Spiderman not hitting to kill is in his character, as is Thor not using his godblast, as is SS not transmuting every enemy he sees. Bloodlust simply removes the "in character" stipulation. I believe that I have already dealt with the portion on powersets and the "in character" stipulation working in tandem and not having one imposed on the other. If a character is mind controlled etc, that is out of character. That doesn't mean that every other situation qualifies as "in character" by default of not being in the former radius -- Spiderman not holding back against a crook is out of character, for instance. Your statement on a single performance of a feat qualifying it as in character is ridiculously oxymoronic. And no, it doesn't work that way with the forum in general.
Prove that warp speed = light speed. I'm not interested in Star Trek parallels. Show me on-panel proof. Until then, you don't know what warp speed is.
For the first scan, you do understand what a great speed feat that was, for a weakened SS to travel 500000 light years in seconds? You do understand how many times that was faster than light?
Ah, the Grandmaster feat. Show me your calculations. You must know something the rest of us don't, as you can tell how far SS has travelled just by looking at the panel. Telling me bullet-time isn't going to cut it.
Do I know how fast light is? From above, I apparently do. I have looked at all those scans many times before. I doubt making a thorough search extends to scanning the planet from space. GIS systems used in mining facilities scan oil deposits from a distance. Guess what happens when more thorough searches are needed? In addition, if Earth is searched by covering diameters, it would produce far more than 6-7 trips around the earth. The same way as a line having an infinite number of dots. Even accounting for the fact that your numers of 6-7 are wrong, and should be much higher as per my own calculations, you're still looking at a great speed feat, without even accounting for the possibility that a thorough search requires an exhaustive search of every inch of the planet.
Here is another example of attaining light speed extremely quickly:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/silversurfer.jpg
Where is my proof that Superman can perform better than SS?
Originally posted by h1a8
Let's just drop this since you are referring to a different "Physical" than I am. Note: there are at least 4 different definitions of the word in your average dictionary.But Juggs is not vulnerable to non mental psionics anyway. So why are we still talking about the Onslaught feat?
You brought up physics in an attempt to circumvent an argument that you could never have won. SImple as that. Since you can't correlate physics to comic psionics, explain to me where the Onslaught feat was not physical.
Originally posted by OualladaIt's fun debating with you. This is where we disagree.
It is in his powerset to godblast. Simply not within his character to do so on a consistent basis. Years of comics are evidence enough.
You say that being in character implies (or means) consistency.
I say that being in character implies permissibleness.
Thus we have to agree to disagree here.
I'm not understanding you here. But anyway, if the OP stated bloodlust then we wouldn't be having this discussion, lol.
Spiderman not hitting to kill is in his character, as is Thor not using his godblast, as is SS not transmuting every enemy he sees. Bloodlust simply removes the "in character" stipulation. I believe that I have already dealt with the portion on powersets and the "in character" stipulation working in tandem and not having one imposed on the other. If a character is mind controlled etc, that is out of character. That doesn't mean that every other situation qualifies as "in character" by default of not being in the former radius -- Spiderman not holding back against a crook is out of character, for instance. Your statement on a single performance of a feat qualifying it as in character is ridiculously oxymoronic. And no, it doesn't work that way with the forum in general.
There is a difference between never doing something and rarely doing something. I say that if a character never did something (like SM hitting to kill) then it is not in character for them to do it at anytime. You say that if a character rarely does something then it is not in character if they choose to do it again. See the faultiness of your logic? If it is not in a character to do something then they would've never have done it before ever.
I didn't claim that warp speed=light speed. Obviously SS is always accelerating when he tries to travel fast. Thus if he reaches light speed then it is only at an instant.
Prove that warp speed = light speed. I'm not interested in Star Trek parallels. Show me on-panel proof. Until then, you don't know what warp speed is.
I'm in no way saying that SS isn't fast as hell. I'm saying that after two seconds of travel SS can obtain infinite speed for all I care. I have no problem with that. Its just that he's a slow starter (according to Superman Time).
For the first scan, you do understand what a great speed feat that was, for a weakened SS to travel 500000 light years in seconds? You do understand how many times that was faster than light?
SS by the panel is about 500-1000m away in 1 sec. This is bullet speed. A human is barely visible (if at all)
Ah, the Grandmaster feat. Show me your calculations. You must know something the rest of us don't, as you can tell how far SS has travelled just by looking at the panel. Telling me bullet-time isn't going to cut it.
SS has cosmic awareness. You must have forgotten that. He has at times been aware of beings and forces many light years away. The scan was bad writing if anything. SS don't need to travel anywhere to know where someone is.
Do I know how fast light is? From above, I apparently do. I have looked at all those scans many times before. I doubt making a thorough search extends to scanning the planet from space. GIS systems used in mining facilities scan oil deposits from a distance. Guess what happens when more thorough searches are needed? In addition, if Earth is searched by covering diameters, it would produce far more than 6-7 trips around the earth. The same way as a line having an infinite number of dots. Even accounting for the fact that your numers of 6-7 are wrong, and should be much higher as per my own calculations, you're still looking at a great speed feat, without even accounting for the possibility that a thorough search requires an exhaustive search of every inch of the planet.
But my friend this is where you are certainly wrong.
Light travels 186,282 miles per second. The Earth is about 25,000 miles around the equator. Thus light can cirle the equator a little more than 7 in a second. Now adding an altitude and it takes 6-7 trips in a second (depending on the altitude). So how are my calculations wrong? But anyway give SS some amount of cosmic awareness here. He's obviously is not going to need to cover every point on the Earth to search for someone. But all of that is moot anyway as I said that SS can reach infinite speed for all I care. For this is not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that under a second or two SS is slow (in Superman's eyes of course). After that second he can move across the universe for all I care.
That scan shows nothing. It doesn't even show that SS obtained light speed. Saying I can do something doesn't mean that I am doing it. Plus how do you know it wasn't more than a second before he assumingly reached light speed. I mean he was already flying through space possibly increasing his speed before his comment.
Here is another example of attaining light speed extremely quickly:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/silversurfer.jpg
Later. But I'm not claiming this. I'm claiming that SS is a slow starter by your logic.
Where is my proof that Superman can perform better than SS?
Originally posted by Ouallada
You brought up physics in an attempt to circumvent an argument that you could never have won. SImple as that. Since you can't correlate physics to comic psionics, explain to me where the Onslaught feat was not physical.
You are using the classic case of equivocation, which is a form of ambiguity. You are asking me to explain how the Onslaught feat was not physical when it actually was (in the context you are using). My argument is that Onslaught wasn't physical in the since of matter. My argument was also that sufficient psionics (whether solid or not) is like kryptonite to Juggs. But I'm mostly likely wrong there. I don't know why I thought that. I must have seen it somewhere.
