phoenix force vs mad jim jaspers/fury vs pretcon beyonder

Just because Fury defeated Jaspers and its your opinion that Jaspers can defeat the Force, doesnt mean that Fury could therefore defeat the Phoenix Force. Thats elementary level logic. Classic Emma Frost could take out Colossus, Colossus could take out a Sentinel, does that therefore mean that Classic Emma Frost could take out a Sentinel? 😕

Jaspers under-estimated the Fury and was toying with him. Despite all his power he was limited by his human imagination and human experience. Instead of attacking Fury with his reality warping abilities thereby ensuring a victory, Jaspers merely used his abilities on himself to shapeshift into various animalistic forms and crudely fought the Fury hand to hand. Fury of course could withstand this sort of physical assault and it gave it a chance to formulate a strategy to take Jaspers out, which he did by teleporting Jaspers outside of reality where he was powerless.

Given that we know the scope of Jaspers abilities and we have witnessed this power, we know he never fought to his full potential against the Fury, therefore Fury defeating Jaspers, does NOT mean that Fury could therefore defeat any and everything YOU think Jaspers could defeat.

The Phoenix Force could easily disperse Fury at a sub atomic level or drain him of energy and the Fury could never kill the Phoenix Force. Its immortal, indestructible, mutable energy by canon. Shatter it, disperse it, absorb it for your own uses and re-channel it and it will still be alive and kicking.

Theres nothing Fury could do to it. Hes not fighting an avatar who he could temporarily dispose of by destroying the physicality, hes fighting the life force of reality.

The Force isnt plagued by the same problems its avatar Jean is, i.e disorientation upon hatching from a Phoenix Egg, or disorientation from being temporaily disconnected from the Forces Consciousness because this IS the Force unrestricted by physicality. The Force could amputate any part of Eternitys timeline, his future as we saw or if it chose his past, both resulting in his non existence and the Force would do it in alot less time than a physical avatar. So posting scans of Jean getting her head together before actually amputating the future reality wont cut it here.

Just to summarize, Fury didnt fight and defeat a Jaspers fighting at full potential, therefore even if its your opinion that Jaspers can take out any of the listed opponents, you cannot therefore claim Fury could defeat any and anyone you believe Jaspers can.

The Force is the life force of reality, just being sentient within reality drains reality's collective life energy reserve. Its avatars have manipulated Eternity in the palm of their hands at an atomic level, first after the telekinetic amputation, (after which Jean held the future state of Eternity, a divergent possible future reality 15104 in her hand where it was later disposed of) and secondly when Jean materialised the rest of the timeline in her palm telekinetically to heal the wound she had inflicted on it by altering the past (i.e Cyclops reaction to Emma) thereby growing a new future to replace the one she had just cut away.

The Force would be easily capable of that and so much more.

Jaspers couldnt destroy the Force. The Force could teleport him out reality into the void, or it could telekinetically rip reality away from around him(certainly feasible if one of its avatars can wield telekinetic control of a reality down to its atoms) either option resulting in a powerless Jaspers.

Or the Force could be cheap and take Jaspers out of the equation before he could blink an eye. Jaspers needs to apply his power to himself to make his physicality anything more than human, he needs to either do that directly or he needs to create a reality warp an area of reality where he determines the laws. Either way with his very human reactons the Force could snipe him before he even registers whats hhappening to him.

Phoenix is greater than Jaspers(dont go off on a tangent about his supposed omniversal potential which is irrelevant when it was never ever realised on panel)

Originally posted by Mr Master
✅

I only gave Beyonder the win because Beyonder can erase everything,

giving Jaspers absolutely no place to draw Reality from.

Phoenix on the other hand can't pull off that teleporting to Un-Space thingy,

with the Fury's ultra Teleportation capabilities,

Jaspers will just pop back or into another Reality and fight from there.

If one of Phoenixes avatars can control a reality telekinetically down to its atoms then the Phoenix Force could easily tear the reality from around Jaspers leaving him powerless.

Not true at all. Fury merely teleported Jaspers into the void. Are you really going to try and say the Phoenix Force cant teleport Jaspers into the void like Fury did? Based on what? We're talking a high powered cosmic force here and youre going to try and have people believe it cant teleport like a robot can?

Your last line says "Jaspers will just pop back or into another Reality and fight from there." How exactly would he do that if he taken outside of reality? He needs reality as a medium to express his powers, taken outside of reality he will not be doing any popping back but instead alot of dying.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Anyhow, Phoenix can't teleport that quickly anyway.

Look at the Process the Actual Phoenix Force has to go through to travel through Time & Space across vast distances to other Universes:

The Phoenix Force (Host-LESS) was Owned by these 6 cats:

"The assembled Heroes are TIRED & BATTERED,

the Phoenix is Reborn and FRESH"

And they're STILL holding their own. 🙂

Mind you ROGUE is one of the 6. 😂

The Six heroes BEAT (Physically) the Phoenix Force into and through a Portal:

I like how you're ignoring the fact that the Firebird is NOT the full Phoenix Force but instead an AVATAR of the Force.

"At the moment of alignment Feron called on the PHOENIX AVATAR":

"But instead tore out the portion of the Phoenix Force that bonded his student to the AVATAR":

"The COSMIC AVATAR she hosts erupts from its psychic confines"

The Phoenix Force is the life force of reality by canon, so for that firebird to be the full Force there would be no life anywhere else on panel and only that firebird. That firebird is a representation of the life force of reality at a universal level. The firebird is NOT necessarily the full Phoenix Force.

On top of that this AVATAR was not at full power because it was away from the universe from which it derives its power from..616:

Which explains this representation of the Forces showing in that issue you presented here Mr Master. However as we're talking about the FP Phoenix Force here, using those scans and trying to present them as representative of the FP Phoenix Force is a useless exercise when those scans dont feature the FP Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Look how long it takes for it to Teleport back to it's native Universe:

"The Phoenix Force ends up DISPLACED by Four Billion Years"

By this time Jaspers would have been frying the Host.

So because the Firebird avatar chooses to teleport in this fashion in this one instance means that its limited to this method of teleporting, despite the fact that the avatars it powers can have teleported differently and despite the fact that lesser powers such as Nightcrawler, Blink, Lila Cheney and Silver Surfer for example, can teleport differently and yet you'd have us believe the Phoenix Force is stuck with this?

Have you forgotten how Rachel Summers teleported all of the heroes to the Colorado Mountains for their final confrontation with Beyonder during Secret Wars 2?

Or how about when Jean shifts herself from reality into the home dimension of the Phoenix Corps just like that after amputating the future?

Or the multiple occassions human hosts have opened stargates for themselves?

Rachel:

Jean:

Originally posted by Mr Master
Mind you this is the Actual Force, NO Host. (FP Phoenix)

Its the avatar of the Force. Not the full Force. What seems to have confused you is the fact that its referred to as the Phoenix Force. A droplet of water from a glass full of the stuff is still referred to as water. It is canon that the Force is the life force of reality, so you know that firebird isnt the totality of the Force, plus theres the fact thats its stated straight up on panel that the firebird is the avatar of the Phoenix Force. That doesnt mean that that Firebird cant be referred to as the Phoenix Force, because it is, its the Forces representation, you're just mistaken to believe its the whole of the Force.

1.Beyonder
2.Jaspers
3.Phoenix

In terms of actual on panel feats, the Force and its avatars in their highest showings have the others beat.

None of the others have feats greater than telekinetically amputating a future from the rest of reality, nowhere in Marvel have i ever seen a being able to cut away at the very substance of time/space and then hold it in the palm of their hands like it was a toy. After that future reality was discarded Jean again used her telekinetic powers to manipulate a reality down to its atoms materializing it within the palm of her hand for treatment after having wounded it by cutting off its future.

So twice Jean has through telekinesis manipulated an entire reality with all that energy, all that matter and held it in her hands like it was nothing. The second time she materialized the reality from one location to the palm of her hand. Just think about all of that matter, all the galaxies, solar systems, stars, planets and lifeforms she atomically dispersed and then reformed in the palm of her hand. An entire universes worth. Think of the power required to pull that off.

Average Phoenix showings have avatars beating down Galactus level cosmics, imbuing planets with life, eating stars, planets, casually blowing up solar systems, but Jeans feats in New X-men are unparalleled.

In terms of presentation however, i.e how the characters are regarded, Pre retcon Beyonder definitely comes out on top. Whats certain though is both characters are beyond the Jaspers/Fury combo.

Originally posted by Estacado
1.Beyonder
2.Jaspers
3.Phoenix

And as per usual no argument to back up that opinion. 😉

Jaspers needs to apply his power to himself to make himself anything other than human, Jaspers has human reaction times and durability. He would be taken out of the equation before he could blink.

Or Phoenix could just teleport him to the void, or tear reality away from around him. Either way he could do nothing to the Force and yet the Force could do alot to him.

Reality isnt the be all and end all of the Force. The Force as stated exists simultaneously within reality and outside it, Jaspers' power is limited to reality. He could never kill the Force and yet the Force could remove him from the medium he needs to express his power or it could remove that medium from him.

Force wins over Jaspers.

For all the talk about his omniversal destructive potential, it was only a potential and it was one that was never realised as he got sniped before he could do anything particularly impressive. 🙁

nice post's GS!!
i agree about jaspers and his"omniversal" status.
can merlins word always be trusted?
as GS stated jaspers never relized his "omniversal" potential.
it will take him time to get to that level even if it is truly possible for him to do so.
the beyonder and the phoenix will have dispached of him long befor that happens.
imo the phoenix would turn him in to penut butter befor he could do a thing.

Oh I forgot!!!!!
Lt was kneeling before the Phoenix Force!!!!!!

Originally posted by Estacado
Oh I forgot!!!!!
Lt was kneeling before the Phoenix Force!!!!!!

Get over it Juggs.

That issue was squashed long ago and my innocence was declared. 😄

You on the other hand are still carrying pain and grief from the past so are coming on here and instead of countering my posts you merely post an opposing verdict out of spite. Thats really quite sad. ✅

Not even your master does that bullsh*t.😬

Seems my past victories have left you somewhat traumatized. I pity you. Hopefully someday soon you'll get over me. 🙁

This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]
You must wrote some arrogant crap again but I don't even bother reading it.

Originally posted by xjustice69x
nice post's GS!!
i agree about jaspers and his"omniversal" status.
can merlins word always be trusted?
as GS stated jaspers never relized his "omniversal" potential.
it will take him time to get to that level even if it is truly possible for him to do so.
the beyonder and the phoenix will have dispached of him long befor that happens.
imo the phoenix would turn him in to penut butter befor he could do a thing.

Thank you. 🙂

Good point about Merlyns word. He is known to be deceitful and is known to lie and say things in order to manipulate people into carrying out his own agenda. That point was illustrated in detail in Excalibur #50.

Good to have you back GS. It's always fun for you and Master to bite each others heads off...

There are so many holes in his arguements, it's amazing. 🤨 I'll let Mr. Master deal with this bozo.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
There are so many holes in his arguements, it's amazing. 🤨 I'll let Mr. Master deal with this bozo.

Wanna actually point them out? 😉

Cos i'll happily answer any queries you have.

Im betting i hear nothing from you again until Mr Master responds. 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Just because Fury defeated Jaspers and its your opinion that Jaspers can defeat the Force, doesnt mean that Fury could therefore defeat the Phoenix Force. Thats elementary level logic. Classic Emma Frost could take out Colossus, Colossus could take out a Sentinel, does that therefore mean that Classic Emma Frost could take out a Sentinel? 😕

Well Xavier and Jean have mind blasted Sentinels before.... 😖hifty: So even though it shouldn't happen and makes no sense whatsoever, it's a possibility.

Anyway ABC logic sucks. 😐

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Well Xavier and Jean have mind blasted Sentinels before.... 😖hifty: So even though it shouldn't happen and makes no sense whatsoever, it's a possibility.

Anyway ABC logic sucks. 😐

And in the old bios of Xavier from around that time it states that he has no influence on the physical whatsoever and any incident where that occurred was a freak accident. I believe you're talking about the incident where Xavier was travelling in a boat and a Sentinel rose out of the water and attacked him? Good issue 😉

But yes i agree, ABC logic does suck indeed. 🙂

I'll respond to anymore querys tomorrow, early start. Later guys! 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And in the old bios of Xavier from around that time it states that he has no influence on the physical whatsoever and any incident where that occurred was a freak accident. I believe you're talking about the incident where Xavier was travelling in a boat and a Sentinel rose out of the water and attacked him? Good issue 😉

But yes i agree, ABC logic does suck indeed. 🙂

Yep that's the issue, hmm never knew that. Well he does have latent telekinesis(Nova made use of it) so it wouldn't be that much of a surprise. Same with Emma when she effected the physical plane and brought down the building with her mind blast during the fight against Phoenix. She also has had 3 instances of latent TK well 4 if you count X-Men #188 and the fish floating but I tend to ignore that little artistic mishap, hopefully marvel never touch on that ever again.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I'll respond to anymore querys tomorrow, early start. Later guys! 🙂

Peace 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Just because Fury defeated Jaspers and its your opinion that Jaspers can defeat the Force, doesnt mean that Fury could therefore defeat the Phoenix Force. Thats elementary level logic. Classic Emma Frost could take out Colossus, Colossus could take out a Sentinel, does that therefore mean that Classic Emma Frost could take out a Sentinel? 😕

Jaspers under-estimated the Fury and was toying with him. Despite all his power he was limited by his human imagination and human experience. Instead of attacking Fury with his reality warping abilities thereby ensuring a victory, Jaspers merely used his abilities on himself to shapeshift into various animalistic forms and crudely fought the Fury hand to hand. Fury of course could withstand this sort of physical assault and it gave it a chance to formulate a strategy to take Jaspers out, which he did by teleporting Jaspers outside of reality where he was powerless.

Given that we know the scope of Jaspers abilities and we have witnessed this power, we know he never fought to his full potential against the Fury, therefore Fury defeating Jaspers, does NOT mean that Fury could therefore defeat any and everything YOU think Jaspers could defeat.

The Phoenix Force could easily disperse Fury at a sub atomic level or drain him of energy and the Fury could never kill the Phoenix Force. Its immortal, indestructible, mutable energy by canon. Shatter it, disperse it, absorb it for your own uses and re-channel it and it will still be alive and kicking.

Theres nothing Fury could do to it. Hes not fighting an avatar who he could temporarily dispose of by destroying the physicality, hes fighting the life force of reality.

The Force isnt plagued by the same problems its avatar Jean is, i.e disorientation upon hatching from a Phoenix Egg, or disorientation from being temporaily disconnected from the Forces Consciousness because this IS the Force unrestricted by physicality. The Force could amputate any part of Eternitys timeline, his future as we saw or if it chose his past, both resulting in his non existence and the Force would do it in alot less time than a physical avatar. So posting scans of Jean getting her head together before actually amputating the future reality wont cut it here.

Just to summarize, Fury didnt fight and defeat a Jaspers fighting at full potential, therefore even if its your opinion that Jaspers can take out any of the listed opponents, you cannot therefore claim Fury could defeat any and anyone you believe Jaspers can.

The Force is the life force of reality, just being sentient within reality drains reality's collective life energy reserve. Its avatars have manipulated Eternity in the palm of their hands at an atomic level, first after the telekinetic amputation, (after which Jean held the future state of Eternity, a divergent possible future reality 15104 in her hand where it was later disposed of) and secondly when Jean materialised the rest of the timeline in her palm telekinetically to heal the wound she had inflicted on it by altering the past (i.e Cyclops reaction to Emma) thereby growing a new future to replace the one she had just cut away.

The Force would be easily capable of that and so much more.

Jaspers couldnt destroy the Force. The Force could teleport him out reality into the void, or it could telekinetically rip reality away from around him(certainly feasible if one of its avatars can wield telekinetic control of a reality down to its atoms) either option resulting in a powerless Jaspers.

Or the Force could be cheap and take Jaspers out of the equation before he could blink an eye. Jaspers needs to apply his power to himself to make his physicality anything more than human, he needs to either do that directly or he needs to create a reality warp an area of reality where he determines the laws. Either way with his very human reactons the Force could snipe him before he even registers whats hhappening to him.

Phoenix is greater than Jaspers(dont go off on a tangent about his supposed omniversal potential which is irrelevant when it was never ever realised on panel)

Addressed.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/449146_2-phoenix-force-first-fallen-james-braddock-vs-mad-jj-fury-eternity

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