phoenix force vs mad jim jaspers/fury vs pretcon beyonder

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If one of Phoenixes avatars can control a reality telekinetically down to its atoms then the Phoenix Force could easily tear the reality from around Jaspers leaving him powerless.

Phoneix nore any Avatar has ever tore Reality into a Void.

NEVER.

Heck, it took Jean 7 Pages just to amputate the Future of Reality 15104:

It took Phoenix A LOT of TIME to amputate that Timeline, enough TIME that her friends were dying all around her, including Wolverine at the hands of Sublime while she was working on the "amputation"

But don't take my word for it, here is Jean in her own words:

"What's happening here is a Coordinated Disinfection,

my Friends were only KEEPING YOU BUSY"

Finally, SEVEN PAGES later Phoenix amputates that Timeline.

By this time Jaspers would have turned Phoenix into a pigeon.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not true at all. Fury merely teleported Jaspers into the void. Are you really going to try and say the Phoenix Force cant teleport Jaspers into the void like Fury did? Based on what?

How does Phoenix know it needs to teleport Jaspers into a Void?

Even so,

this Jaspers Merged with the Fury,

which means He'll just Teleport back.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
We're talking a high powered cosmic force here and youre going to try and have people believe it cant teleport like a robot can?

Correct.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your last line says "Jaspers will just pop back or into another Reality and fight from there." How exactly would he do that if he taken outside of reality? He needs reality as a medium to express his powers, taken outside of reality he will not be doing any popping back but instead alot of dying.

This is Jaspers/Fury not just Jaspers.

And again,

Phoenix has no idea that's Jaspers' weakness.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I like how you're ignoring the fact that the Firebird is NOT the full Phoenix Force but instead an AVATAR of the Force.

"At the moment of alignment Feron called on the PHOENIX AVATAR":

"But instead tore out the portion of the Phoenix Force that bonded his student to the AVATAR":

"The COSMIC AVATAR she hosts erupts from its psychic confines"

The Phoenix Force is the life force of reality by canon, so for that firebird to be the full Force there would be no life anywhere else on panel and only that firebird. That firebird is a representation of the life force of reality at a universal level. The firebird is NOT necessarily the full Phoenix Force.

On top of that this AVATAR was not at full power because it was away from the universe from which it derives its power from..616:

Which explains this representation of the Forces showing in that issue you presented here Mr Master. However as we're talking about the FP Phoenix Force here, using those scans and trying to present them as representative of the FP Phoenix Force is a useless exercise when those scans dont feature the FP Phoenix Force.

So because the Firebird avatar chooses to teleport in this fashion in this one instance means that its limited to this method of teleporting, despite the fact that the avatars it powers can have teleported differently and despite the fact that lesser powers such as Nightcrawler, Blink, Lila Cheney and Silver Surfer for example, can teleport differently and yet you'd have us believe the Phoenix Force is stuck with this?

Inconsequential.

The Force in it's Natural State is just ambient Energy,

Un-Aware of it's own existence.

The Phoenix Force has NO CONSCIOUSNESS in it's Natural State

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Have you forgotten how Rachel Summers teleported all of the heroes to the Colorado Mountains for their final confrontation with Beyonder during Secret Wars 2?

Teleporting instantaneously into Another Universe,

is quite Different,

to teleporting across a country.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Or how about when Jean shifts herself from reality into the home dimension of the Phoenix Corps just like that after amputating the future?

That's her Home Dimension.

We're talking about a Universe that has been reduced to UN-Space.

How would Phoenix know WHERE there is one?

How would Phoenix know that Jaspers' weakness in the first place?

And even then,

this is Jaspers/Fury Merged,

in which case Jaspers has the advantage concerning Teleportation.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its the avatar of the Force. Not the full Force. What seems to have confused you is the fact that its referred to as the Phoenix Force. A droplet of water from a glass full of the stuff is still referred to as water. It is canon that the Force is the life force of reality, so you know that firebird isnt the totality of the Force, plus theres the fact thats its stated straight up on panel that the firebird is the avatar of the Phoenix Force. That doesnt mean that that Firebird cant be referred to as the Phoenix Force, because it is, its the Forces representation, you're just mistaken to believe its the whole of the Force.

Again,

Inconsequential.

The Force in it's Natural State is just ambient Energy,

Un-Aware of it's own existence.

It never took Jean all of those pages in trying to amputate the future. That’s not a very objective interpretation of the issue my friend.

If you actually read the comic you’ll see that Jean was disoriented from being hatched from her Phoenix Egg prematurely. Cassandra Nova and Marsha telepathically disrupted Phoenix Jeans connection with the Phoenix Consciousness making her mentally normal Jean:

Wolverine then went to tell her how the reality she knew (616) ended up in this apocalyptic mess (reality (15104)

The Beast then attacked and Wolverine left Jean to attack the Beast at which point we follow into the scans you’ve posted.

Those pages you claim Jean was working to amputate the future were actually Jean getting her head together and re-establishing her connection with the Phoenix consciousness. Once that was done she amputated the future just like that:

And then as Wolverine lay dying and everything started to fade she shifted into the Phoenix Corps dimension:

We’re having hypothetical battles here. We’re looking at the characters power levels and abilities and we’re taking charge and making decisions for them saying they could do this and they could do that. So your comments about how would Phoenix know to teleport Jaspers are irrelevant. Acknowledge that.

Your knowledge of the Force is lacking. Alan Davis’ interpretation of the Force in Excalibur regarding the Force being non sentient before Ferons intervention is contradicted both on panel and in the bio. Before the Earth had life, long before Feron was even around to supposedly awaken the Force the Force fought Le Bete Noir and trapped him in the still cooling Earth:

The Forces sentience prior to the Feron incident is even detailed in the latest bio. Feron just reawakened the Phoenix, he never gave it sentience to start with:

All of this is highly irrelevant anyway because no threadmaker would include the Force in a battle thread if they didn’t mean when it is operating through an avatar, be it the Firebird or a human host. So its puzzling that you had to highlight this. The Force can choose to be formless, ambient energy or it can take form through an avatar, you are mistaken in believing it is limited to this.

Ive shown you instances of Phoenix teleporting instantly I shouldn’t have had to because its fallacious for you to argue that a cosmic entity of Phoenixes level couldn’t do what many lesser beings can do with ease. Jean teleported instantly beyond space and time to her home dimension, therefore you cannot argue that if it was the Forces will that it could not teleport to the void between dimensions. Please have some objectivity.

By canon in Marvel energy cannot be destroyed, Phoenix is immortal and totally indestructible. It cannot be killed, it can be absorbed and re-channeled only to come out the other end just fine. There is nothing Jaspers or the Fury could do to kill the Force and yet there are things the Force could do to rid herself of Jaspers and the Fury, things I have already detailed. The Jaspers/Fury merge could be prevented through past alteration. The Force could atomize the combo at a sub atomic level and scatter the disparate atoms in the void, there are so many options. Jaspers’ power is dependent on the Forces existence as with no Force there is no reality and yet Jaspers or the Fury cannot kill or get rid of pure energy anyway. They simply cannot do anything.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It never took Jean all of those pages in trying to amputate the future. That’s not a very objective interpretation of the issue my friend.

I don't mind you having a conflicting opinion. 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you actually read the comic

No need for this.

I read all relevant issues.

If my interpretation is different ... let me live.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
you’ll see that Jean was disoriented from being hatched from her Phoenix Egg prematurely. Cassandra Nova and Marsha telepathically disrupted Phoenix Jeans connection with the Phoenix Consciousness making her mentally normal Jean:

Wolverine then went to tell her how the reality she knew (616) ended up in this apocalyptic mess (reality (15104)

The Beast then attacked and Wolverine left Jean to attack the Beast at which point we follow into the scans you’ve posted.

I read these issues, and I skimmed over the scans you provided again,

Jean's memory was faulty but not her power.

It doesn't take away form this either:

"What's happening here is a Coordinated Disinfection,
my Friends were only KEEPING YOU BUSY"

I guess we'll let the onlookers decide.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Those pages you claim Jean was working to amputate the future were actually Jean getting her head together and re-establishing her connection with the Phoenix consciousness. Once that was done she amputated the future just like that:

As you wish. 😄

Oh boy, here we go again...

I'm not taking sides, but I'm not so sure Phoenix can nullify the Jaspers/Fury amalgam. RR (reality removal) was the only way to defeat Jaspers before. I'm not so sure Phoenix can go back and erase Jaspers existence. On panel many characters exist as temporal paradoxes due to their timelines ceasing to exist and many other strange happenings and many of these characters aren't nigh omnipotent reality warpers like Jaspers is. Destroying Jasper's origin may have no effect at all given that he now has Fury's adaptations as well and Fury has on panel survived nullification and travelled to unspace and back.

I'd say Beyonder would win, and between the other two it's a draw (if I were choosing sides, which I'm not).

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
We’re having hypothetical battles here. We’re looking at the characters power levels and abilities and we’re taking charge and making decisions for them saying they could do this and they could do that. So your comments about how would Phoenix know to teleport Jaspers are irrelevant.

Acknowledge that.

This is Jaspers merged with the Fury "Acknowledge that."

The Fury's ability to teleport is superior to Phoenix's On Panel.

The Fury was popping into different UniverseS while getting Warped and physically attacked.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't mind you having a conflicting opinion. 🙂

No need for this.

I read all relevant issues.

If my interpretation is different ... let me live.

I read these issues, and I skimmed over the scans you provided again,

Jean's memory was faulty but not her power.

It doesn't take away form this either:

"What's happening here is a Coordinated Disinfection,
my Friends were only KEEPING YOU BUSY"

I guess we'll let the onlookers decide.

It was stated and shown that her connection with the Consciousness was disconnected. She was normal Jean until she re-established her connection at which point she amputated the future just like that.

🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is Jaspers merged with the Fury "Acknowledge that."

The Fury's ability to teleport is superior to Phoenix's On Panel.

The Fury was popping into different UniverseS while getting Warped and physically attacked.

So was Jaspers. Its just teleportation. We're not talking multiversal reality warping. The Phoenix has higher on panel feats than either and is a major cosmic force, reality hopping isnt going to be a problem and to believe it is because she hasnt done it as often as Fury is fallacious 😬

There's a major problem with that logic: Atoms don't compose reality, atoms simply exist within reality. Reality is made of spacetime, which is a substrate on which matter and energy exist. The ability to control all atoms in the universe doesn't mean the ability to destroy the universe. For an analogy, it would be like controlling all the water in a bucket, but not being able to destroy or rip apart the bucket itself.

pretcon beyonder wins anyway.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Oh boy, here we go again...

I'm not taking sides, but I'm not so sure Phoenix can nullify the Jaspers/Fury amalgam. RR (reality removal) was the only way to defeat Jaspers before. I'm not so sure Phoenix can go back and erase Jaspers existence. On panel many characters exist as temporal paradoxes due to their timelines ceasing to exist and many other strange happenings and many of these characters aren't nigh omnipotent reality warpers like Jaspers is. Destroying Jasper's origin may have no effect at all given that he now has Fury's adaptations as well and Fury has on panel survived nullification and travelled to unspace and back.

I'd say Beyonder would win, and between the other two it's a draw (if I were choosing sides, which I'm not).

Ripping reality away from the merger and atomizing it would work.

Fury did indeed survive universal nullification but was left a battered heap that needed to absorb a human woman to give it the strength it needed to repair itself.

It has limited energy reserves, it is a physical being. The Fury after its battle with Jaspers was so depleted of energy that it was destroyed by an axe to the head. 😬

Either way theres not a thing the merger could do to the Force. It is the ambient life energy of reality. Jaspers can neither destroy it and certainly cant banish it otherwise he will render himself powerless.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
There's a major problem with that logic: Atoms don't compose reality, atoms simply exist within reality. Reality is made of spacetime, which is a substrate on which matter and energy exist. The ability to control all atoms in the universe doesn't mean the ability to destroy the universe. For an analogy, it would be like controlling all the water in a bucket, but not being able to destroy or rip apart the bucket itself.

The problem is, youre trying to analyse from a real world perspective something where comic book science applies. The Phoenix in New X-men amputated space/time like it was a physical thing and then held it in her hand via telekinesis. She again used her telekinesis to materialize reality into the palm of her hand via telekinetic control of its component atoms. As far as the comics go my strategy is solid.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your knowledge of the Force is lacking.

Alan Davis’ interpretation of the Force in Excalibur regarding the Force being non sentient before Ferons intervention is contradicted both on panel and in the bio. Before the Earth had life, long before Feron was even around to supposedly awaken the Force

the Force fought Le Bete Noir and trapped him in the still cooling Earth:

The Forces sentience prior to the Feron incident is even detailed in the latest bio. Feron just reawakened the Phoenix, he never gave it sentience to start with:

All this Scan does is highlight how the Force got Owned by Le Bete Noir.

"trapped him?" ❌

The Force got Trapped!

(Highlight from clear Readable Scan)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All of this is highly irrelevant anyway because no threadmaker would include the Force in a battle thread if they didn’t mean when it is operating through an avatar, be it the Firebird or a human host. So its puzzling that you had to highlight this.

It was you who brought up the Force in it's Natural State.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Force can choose to be formless, ambient energy or it can take form through an avatar, you are mistaken in believing it is limited to this.

I never said it can't take a Host.

I said in it's Natural State it's formless ambient energy.

Now I was using the wrong terminology,

I should have said a "HOSTLESS" Phoenix Avatar,

which has appeared many times On Panel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ripping reality away from the merger and atomizing it would work.

Fury did indeed survive universal nullification but was left a battered heap that needed to absorb a human woman to give it the strength it needed to repair itself.

It has limited energy reserves, it is a physical being. The Fury after its battle with Jaspers was so depleted of energy that it was destroyed by an axe to the head. 😬

Either way theres not a thing the merger could do to the Force. It is the ambient life energy of reality. Jaspers can neither destroy it and certainly cant banish it otherwise he will render himself powerless.

Which is why I said draw.

But I'm not taking sides. I'm going back to being an impartial observer from this point in this conversation.

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