phoenix force vs mad jim jaspers/fury vs pretcon beyonder

Originally posted by Endless Mike
There's a major problem with that logic: Atoms don't compose reality, atoms simply exist within reality. Reality is made of spacetime, which is a substrate on which matter and energy exist. The ability to control all atoms in the universe doesn't mean the ability to destroy the universe. For an analogy, it would be like controlling all the water in a bucket, but not being able to destroy or rip apart the bucket itself.

This makes sense.

Which is why Reality Warpers will always be above Matter Manipulators.

Ok please don't start this now,

if you don't know what you're talking about ..... ASK!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ripping reality away from the merger and atomizing it would work.

Fury did indeed survive universal nullification but was left a battered heap that needed to absorb a human woman to give it the strength it needed to repair itself.

This is NOT True at all.

The Fury survived Universal Nullification without a scratch:

On Panel:

Bio: "survives Nullification and Jaspers' Warp"

It was the TRIP through UniverseS unprotected that damaged him:

"It Arrived an Hour ago"

"It comes from Another Universe ... it's Journey was Not pleasant, it no longer has Limbs"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It has limited energy reserves, it is a physical being. The Fury after its battle with Jaspers was so depleted of energy that it was destroyed by an axe to the head.

This is also NOT True.

The Fury was weakened after his tramendous battle with Jaspers 616,

(as if that's a low show)

But still managed to zap the cat that axed him in the back,

nearly Killed Captain Britain,

and was finally murdered by a berzerker Captain UK.

If you want the Scans,

I'll provide. 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way theres not a thing the merger could do to the Force. It is the ambient life energy of reality. Jaspers can neither destroy it and certainly cant banish it otherwise he will render himself powerless.

Jaspers/Fury wins.

How the Fury was defeated AFTER,

battling the mighty 616 Jaspers across UniverseS:

Axe to the back my nargas. 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The problem is, youre trying to analyse from a real world perspective something where comic book science applies. The Phoenix in New X-men amputated space/time like it was a physical thing and then held it in her hand via telekinesis. She again used her telekinesis to materialize reality into the palm of her hand via telekinetic control of its component atoms. As far as the comics go my strategy is solid.

But she could only do that in the White Hot Room, IIRC

Originally posted by Endless Mike
But she could only do that in the White Hot Room, IIRC

And it was the Altenate Future of a Diverged Reality at that,

where only X-Men exist. 😂

The Future of an Alternate Reality, NOT of 616 Eternity:

By the time Jean Amputates the Future Deep in the Arc in issue #154,

the Story has been taking place in Reality 15104 since issue #150.

(excerpt Official Hanbook 2005)

So it's the the Future of,

Earth-15104

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104

(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)

"In ONE Future" (there are many Possible Futures)

Phoenix amputated the Alternate Future OF Reality 15104 ...

NOT of Reality 616 which then became 15104.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I'm not taking sides, but I'm not so sure Phoenix can nullify the Jaspers/Fury amalgam. RR (reality removal) was the only way to defeat Jaspers before. I'm not so sure Phoenix can go back and erase Jaspers existence. On panel many characters exist as temporal paradoxes due to their timelines ceasing to exist and many other strange happenings and many of these characters aren't nigh omnipotent reality warpers like Jaspers is. Destroying Jasper's origin may have no effect at all given that he now has Fury's adaptations as well and Fury has on panel survived nullification and travelled to unspace and back.

Need I say more?

Excellent ills.

btw. I saw a response to this post,

for the record,

the Fury withstood Nullification unscathed.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way theres not a thing the merger could do to the Force.

It is the ambient life energy of reality.

Jaspers can neither destroy it and certainly cant banish it

otherwise he will render himself powerless.

😆

This is classic.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jaspers’ power is dependent on the Forces existence

as with no Force there is no reality

😂

Another classic in the making.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
and yet Jaspers or the Fury cannot kill or get rid of pure energy anyway.

They simply cannot do anything.

Jaspers can do anything with any form of Reality.

Matter, Energy, you name it.

Anything.

The Phoenix is a primal force of the Universe,

no different than any other Abstract below Eternity/Infinity.

"Phoenix is ONE of the Primal Forces"

"There is a Natural Order to Her being, as to yours and ALL Creation"

In case you were wondering Galactic, you cannot speed blitz a reality warper, he controls time; if it was that easy to kill them Merlin would not have blasted the universe where the first Jaspers existed.

You can say for example that a warper would not be able to harm the speed force since it is a concept. Jaspers can recreate the universe as if the speed force never existed, as he can make gravity disapear. In this case the victim is the Phoenix force.

I can't say anything about your knowledge of the Phoenix force, but you don't seem to know enough of Jaspers to make a valid point.

masters has this on lock 👆

Oh no. Another faux pas.

If you actually read the scan properly you’d see that it refers to how the Phoenix trapped Le Bete Noir in the still cooling Earth. “Later it encountered Le Bete Noir and trapped it in the centre of a still cooling Earth”

That alone makes the mistake incredibly puzzling, however what makes it unforgiveable is the fact that alongside the bio I posted scans from the actual comic that the bio got its info from where the event is detailed quite clearly:

“The Phoenix Force trapped Le Bete Noir in the planets core

Just to cement the message heres a scan I didn’t post previously as I thought the message was quite clear to all with the posting of a bio entry and a clear on panel event reference:

“We know dat Le Betet Noir was trapped inside de Earth by de Phoenix Force”

I’ll disregard your comments and consider your faux pas the result of a strenuous day. No worries.

Originally posted by Mr Master

I never said it can't take a Host.

I said in it's Natural State it's formless ambient energy.

Now I was using the wrong terminology,

I should have said a "HOSTLESS" Phoenix Avatar,

which has appeared many times On Panel.

And whats your point? Im not disagreeing that a hostless Force has appeared on panel, but what you need to acknowledge is that using scans of the firebird avatar and claiming that avatar to be the sum total of the Phoenix Force is just promotion of falsity. The Firebird is just a sentient representation of the universal life force within reality. It is referred to as the Phoenix Force because it is the Phoenix Force. It is the Forces way of manifesting within reality. Once again I refer to my water example. A droplet of water from a glass full of the stuff is still referred to as water. Doesn’t mean it’s the totality of all the water.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This makes sense.

Which is why Reality Warpers will always be above Matter Manipulators.

Read my response to that post of Endless Mikes. Renders yours unnecessary and far from the case.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok please don't start this now,

if you don't know what you're talking about ..... ASK!!

This is NOT True at all.

The [B]Fury survived Universal Nullification without a scratch:

On Panel:

Bio: "survives Nullification and Jaspers' Warp"

[/B]

The universe around Fury was blown up. What youre forgetting to acknowledge is that the destruction wasnt focused on him. You seem to be inferring that Fury could survive a universal scale attack directed specifically at him. If thats the case then youre unsupported in that opinion and contradicted on panel:

If simply being compressed into a ball at one point could have killed the Fury before he adapted to it, then theres a great many attacks the Force would be capable of that Fury has never been shown to be immune to. Theres no reason why atomisation or transmutation wouldnt obliterate the Fury.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It was the TRIP through UniverseS unprotected that damaged him:

"It Arrived an Hour ago"

"It comes from Another Universe ... it's Journey was Not pleasant, it no longer has Limbs"

You have been constantly hyping up the Furys dimension hopping abilities and yet according to you the damage inflicted on Fury, (the damage which left him unable to repair himself without absorbing an old woman for energy) was caused by him travelling from one dimension to another?

Either way this instance illustrates how the Furys durability and abilities are dependent on his very limited energy reserves.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is also NOT True.

The Fury was weakened after his tramendous battle with Jaspers 616,

(as if that's a low show)

But still managed to zap the cat that axed him in the back,

nearly Killed Captain Britain,

and was finally murdered by a berzerker Captain UK.

Thats cool, you've got me there i didnt remember that scene accurately from my last read, Fury never got killed by an axe to head, but instead got taken outta the game by Captain Uk in crazy b*tch mode who tore it to shreds with her bare hands.

Once the Furys reserves are depleted, its ability to adapt, its high level abilities are made redundant and its about as much of a threat as Johnny 5:

Originally posted by Mr Master [/B]
If you want the Scans,

I'll provide. 😄

Jaspers/Fury wins.

Its cool. I got plenty. Thanks for the offer though.

As for the win the Phoenix Force takes Jaspers/Fury anyday. It can remove the merger from reality through teleportation or remove reality from around it by telekinesis, either option leaves the Jaspers half out of the equation. The Fury is then left to get atomised, transmuted or drained of energy. Either way it dies.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
But she could only do that in the White Hot Room, IIRC

Not the case at all. That’s someone else’s line. Don’t believe all what people tell you, look into things off your own back and you’ll be fine.

She telekinetically amputated the future HCT reality, held it in her hand and carried it away beyond space and time where it was then taken away from her by a clawed hand OUTSIDE the M'kraan crystal:

Within the M'kraan crystal she TELEKINETICALLY materialized the wounded 616 reality where she would later gaze into it and grow it a new future to replace the one she had just cut away by altering the event which lead to the apocalyptic HCT future...Cyclops' reaction to Emma.

Given that OUTSIDE of the crystal THE WCP has shown the ability to telekinetically amputate the future of a universe and then carry away that future reality in her hands

Given that Jeans materializing the wounded universe and holding it in her hands within the crystal was said to be achieved through TELEKINESIS ("The telekinetic control of all those atoms"😉

You CANNOT say that Jean could only hold a reality in her hands because she was within the crystal when she did it OUTSIDE the crystal and when within the crystal its stated to have been achieved through her telekinesis and nothing else, certainly not some imaginary powerup she gains by stepping into the M’kraan crystal.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And it was the Altenate Future of a Diverged Reality at that,

where only X-Men exist. 😂

The Future of an Alternate Reality, NOT of 616 Eternity:

By the time Jean Amputates the Future Deep in the Arc in issue #154,

the Story has been taking place in Reality 15104 since issue #150.

(excerpt Official Hanbook 2005)

So it's the the Future of,

[B]Earth-15104

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104

(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)

"In ONE Future" (there are many Possible Futures)

Phoenix amputated the Alternate Future OF Reality 15104 ...

NOT of Reality 616 which then became 15104. [/B]

Handled quite sufficiently in my Phoenix thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/437478_6-respect-the-phoenix-shifty

Reality 15104 was a divergent future of 616 as you even agree in the thread I’ve posted a link to. Jean amputated this future and then healed the wound she dealt on 616 (by cutting away its future) by changing Cyclops of 616’s actions. If Jean cut away the future of a completely separate alternate reality then she wouldn’t have changed 616 Cyclops actions in an attempt to fix the damage as that would have had no affect on this alternate reality. She would have reached back and changed actions in the past of this alternate reality you imagine. You have already agreed (and quite rightly so) that 15104 was a divergent future of 616, it is one in the same way 616 Cables Askani future is a divergent branch off the main 616 trunk so if you think hard about this subject it’s not hard to see why your line of argument doesn’t make sense in the slightest.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Jaspers can do anything with any form of Reality.

Matter, Energy, you name it.

Anything.

Not proven. The handbooks state that he only warped the U.K and they said it was the globe at the most.

Your entire perspective on the scale of Jaspers warp is based on Jaspers line that he created everything, the stars etc. You forget to acknowledge that he could very well have created everything within his reality warp which was never shown to be anything but global. Within a reality warp nothing has to make sense, the laws are determined by Jaspers so it’s all possible. Either way Jaspers through depicted act definitely does not do anything beyond the global. Jaspers through speech never refers to warping the entire universe so you are unsupported. All you've done is try to weave together a case based on ambiguous far from definitive statements. I myself will stick to what i saw happen in the comics and when how I see things is picked up and supported by the Official Handbook I am left quite confident with my interpretation.