Praise & Worship/Testimonies/Prayers...

Originally posted by sithsaber408
A little clearing up, if I may.

1 Corinthians 14:22 does say "So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy however is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers."

however, the text continues:

1 Corinthians 14:23-25: "Even so, if unbelievers or people who don't understand these things come into your meeting and hear everyone talking in an unknown language, they will think you are crazy. But if all of you are prophesying, and unbelievers or people who don't understand these things come into your meeting, they will be convicted of sin, and they will be condemned by what you say. As they listen, their secret thoughts will be laid bare, and they will fall down on their knees and worship God declaring, "God is really here among you."

It seems a contradiction, as just before he said tongues were for nonbelievers and prophecy for believers.

If you look just before verse 22 though, in verse 21.. Paul quotes Isaiah, saying: "I will speak to my own people through unknown languages and through the lips of foreigners. But even then, they will not listen to me."

Just before that he is talking about how love is the greatest spiritual gift of all, and that we shouldn't take hold of just the things of the Spirit only.

"if I clash as a thousand cymbals and speak in other languages but have not love, I am dead" etc....

So when he says in verse 22: "Its only for unbelievers" it's not a contradiction.

He is saying that it does little good for a whole church or the entire body of Christ worldwide to speak just in tongues, as they may not be living right with him anyways. Or, if they are, only one person is getting the benefit.

The person praying to Christ in tongues.(nobody else understands)

The reason that an unbeliever would be more benefited from tongues is if they are a foreigner and recognize their own language being spoken.

(see Peter in Acts one, on the day of Pentecost when they spoke before 3,000 different people of different languages who were amazed and became saved.)

However, if an actual foreign language isn't being spoken, but the language of the Spirit, it will be very confusing to anybody walking in.

1 Corinthians 14:13:

"So anyone who has the gift of speaking in tongues should also pray for the gift of interpretation in order to tell people plainly what has been said."

compare with the next verse:

1 Corinthians 14:14:

"For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don't understand what I am saying."

There seems a difference implied here between speaking in tongues, which would be on a stage/pulpit TO PEOPLE, which needs interpreters and should only be done as such and would confuse unbelievers and not benefit believers..... and praying in tongues which is a personal way of a believers OWN SPIRIT praying to God in a way that they can't understand.

Now looking back at the youth conference that I mentioned, I'll summarize it this way:

1.) The kids who came forward to pray for the gift of tongues were all believers, the room was full of believers, and those that hadn't been saved before just got saved. (not foolproof, but for the most part accurate. It wasn't like a church service with tons of unsaved guests)

2.) They were not speaking TO anybody, like a prophecy or even a sermon would be done. They were each praying to God, just all at once.

3.)It wasn't planned, it just happened after the altar call. The Holy Spirit came in as He was prayed for, so I believe that what happened that night was in accord with God's will. Were it unbiblical or wrong I don't think the anointing would've been there for it to be allowed in the Spirit.

Also, just as F.Y.I., our church doesn't have speaking in tongues in any services.

Very rarely is there prophecy, but when it happens all can understand it, believers and nonbelievers. (per Paul's instructions)

We have pre-service prayer for the leadership, about 20-30 people who teach, usher, sing, etc... and while there is PRAYING in tongues during that time (along with English praying, not to each other but personally to God), nobody is SPEAKING TO PEOPLE in tongues, without interpretation.

We pray for lots of stuff, the message, the people coming, the families in the leadership, blessings, any requests, etc....

Some pray in tongues at this time, some don't.

But the person leading the prayer for whatever topic (we switch it off) isn't speaking in tougnes, they speak in English.

WheW!

book- Had to get back into the Word to double check, but thanks Nellinator. 👆

I'd never tried to articulate what I'd read and believed inside on tongues and their useage before.

This is gonna make it that much easier for me to answer peoples questions in the future. 🙂

I know that in some churches some fairly stupid things happen with the gift of tongues.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Well...yeah. It's the same group of people rudely jumping in and attacking anything that's on topic, calling us crazy and stupid...even though we kindly asked them to keep things possitive.

It's like..."great, you don't agree with this stuff...point proven...now why don't you go start a 'Praise/Worship/Prayer Is A Joke' thread".

Having said that, I'd love to hear a testimony you have Jaeh.

i guess this is a free internet... we can't do anything about them.
----

my testimony? hmm.. let's see...

i grew up in a Christian Family. My mom and dad are born-again Christians... I usually stayed with my grandparents though when i was a kid, and they're catholics, so i learned a lotta catholic stuff.... my parents entered me into a christian school, and i learned the truth. and i accepted God.... 🙂

--- nothing special, but it's still my testimony... I've had a lotta trials though they aren't that big if you look at the great scheme of life, but because they're still trials. God helped me through each. I just hope that i'm a better example than i hope i am.

Originally posted by Alfheim
How do you know theres an outside world?

So far, it has always been eventually found that the world is larger than waht we have defined it as.

Baconian philosophy...started the Enlightenement.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Well...yeah. It's the same group of people rudely jumping in and attacking anything that's on topic, calling us crazy and stupid...even though we kindly asked them to keep things possitive.

It's like..."great, you don't agree with this stuff...point proven...now why don't you go start a 'Praise/Worship/Prayer Is A Joke' thread".

"rude?" I thought rude was the arbitrary exclusion of those with an opposing perspective. In fact, I don't believe I have called you any term that you had not previously suscribed to my words.

The issue is, you can't back up your position. There are certain areas where I'd be willing to accept that, but you've overstated your case. Now...disagreeing is hardly being negative. Quite honestly, there are already too many crap "'Praise/Worship/Prayer Is A Joke" threads and they are unproductive. Why? Because they are formed as bioget and myopic monoliths to one personal, undeveloped beliefs.

You want dialogue? I'm offering it. If you don't this thread should be closed.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
No it's not. It's the religion forum.

Note..."religion" forum does not mean:

Christian Only Forum
Relious People Only Forum
Religion is Right Forum

It is a forum for discussing issues pertaining to religion.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
It's biased and unfair to discuss different beliefs and religions, and why some don't believe in them, and then to turn around and shun/exclude the other side of the topic which is people who have seen a religion or belief proved true in their lives.

Excuse me, but I'm not the one NOT discussing things. I can stand to have my beliefs questioned. You apparently can't

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Not my fault if the Christian God and Jesus Christ have the most testimonies of actual things happening.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
As before, you're free to post when you prayed to Buddha and he answered something for you. 🙂

..speaking of which, I saw the Dalai Lama today. Very bubbly man.

This is exactly why i try to avoid the religion forums as much as i can. too many hot discussions, but, i can't always run from them i guess.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
There seems a difference implied here between speaking in tongues, which would be on a stage/pulpit TO PEOPLE, which needs interpreters and should only be done as such and would confuse unbelievers and not benefit believers..... and praying in tongues which is a personal way of a believers OWN SPIRIT praying to God in a way that they can't understand.

Ahh...so if you're babbling and then tell people you're praying...you're ok?

Originally posted by sithsaber408
1.) The kids who came forward to pray for the gift of tongues were all believers, the room was full of believers, and those that hadn't been saved before just got saved. (not foolproof, but for the most part accurate.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
It wasn't like a church service with tons of unsaved guests).

Originally posted by sithsaber408
3.)It wasn't planned, it just happened after the altar call. The Holy Spirit came in as He was prayed for, so I believe that what happened that night was in accord with God's will. Were it unbiblical or wrong I don't think the anointing would've been there for it to be allowed in the Spirit.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I'd never tried to articulate what I'd read and believed inside on tongues and their useage before.

Imagine that. Personally, I'd reccomend you do it more often and analyze what you are saying. Thats honest criticism.

Originally posted by JaehSkywalker
This is exactly why i try to avoid the religion forums as much as i can. too many hot discussions, but, i can't always run from them i guess.

I like hot discussions. I also like thinking about what you are thinking.

It is not enough to say WHAT you are thinking, but you must say WHY you are thinking this. If you can't do that, if you can't analyze yourself and respond to criticism, your argument isn't very valid is it.

I can accept an intelligent person who disagrees. There seems to be no one perfect answer to everything in the world. However, I personally distain people who simply state thier opinions as if they are valid because they hold them. That is something I'm not willing to entertain...and I feel it allows me to challenge.

Have a bad day Alliance?

I'm assuming you mean bad day?

Originally posted by Nellinator
Have a bad day Alliance?

Actually no...but it was an awkward day.

I spent 11 hours running the first part of my final data collection on an experiment I've been perfecting for a year. It hasn't quite gone as planned yet, but its not finished. We'll see what my boss thinks.

I've very tired and spent the eveneing baking chocolate chip cookies while watching Stargate.

I am slightly agitated. We've been discussing ID in my history of evolution class and that of course is pushing my buttons.

I also had the pleasure today of attending a lecutre by his Holiness the Dalai Lama. That was certainly an experience...very interesting man who offers some great perspectives, even though I disagree with some of them. Really had some shining moments and great things to say. The mans laugh alone shows you how golden his soul is.
I'm under a lot of career pressure right now with Med school applications, the MCATs and the fact that I'm going to be in Bangkok for the summer (which doesn't aid the Med school situations)

On the whole I'm simply trying to keep things in perspective. However, I can feel this winter break was one of the really distinguishing times in my life. Its not my greatest, I doubt I can ever surpass the most catalytic phase of my life, but I've definately rediscovered who I am and I'm going through lots of personal changes. Its actually quite exciting.

Apparently I also feel like gushing tonight.

So no, I'm not really angry or trying to be antagonistic.

You know what would really help you with your problems Alliance? Jesus.

😄

Originally posted by Alliance
Actually no...but it was an awkward day.

I spent 11 hours running the first part of my final data collection on an experiment I've been perfecting for a year. It hasn't quite gone as planned yet, but its not finished. We'll see what my boss thinks.

I've very tired and spent the eveneing baking chocolate chip cookies while watching Stargate.

I am slightly agitated. We've been discussing ID in my history of evolution class and that of course is pushing my buttons.

I also had the pleasure today of attending a lecutre by his Holiness the Dalai Lama. That was certainly an experience...very interesting man who offers some great perspectives, even though I disagree with some of them. Really had some shining moments and great things to say. The mans laugh alone shows you how golden his soul is.
I'm under a lot of career pressure right now with Med school applications, the MCATs and the fact that I'm going to be in Bangkok for the summer (which doesn't aid the Med school situations)

On the whole I'm simply trying to keep things in perspective. However, I can feel this winter break was one of the really distinguishing times in my life. Its not my greatest, I doubt I can ever surpass the most catalytic phase of my life, but I've definately rediscovered who I am and I'm going through lots of personal changes. Its actually quite exciting.

Apparently I also feel like gushing tonight.

So no, I'm not really angry or trying to be antagonistic.

I'll pray for you to have peace and favor with your experiment Ali, and that your dilegence is rewarded. 🙂

That wouldn't bother you would it?

Think of it as wishing you good luck if you don't want to think of the God part.

Also, what happened with the ID discussion that got you irked?

Originally posted by Alliance

I like hot discussions. I also like thinking about what you are thinking.

It is not enough to say WHAT you are thinking, but you must say WHY you are thinking this. If you can't do that, if you can't analyze yourself and respond to criticism, your argument isn't very valid is it.

I can accept an intelligent person who disagrees. There seems to be no one perfect answer to everything in the world. However, I personally distain people who simply state thier opinions as if they are valid because they hold them. That is something I'm not willing to entertain...and I feel it allows me to challenge.

IMO, everything everyone says is just an opinion unless you present anything valid to make it a fact.

when it comes to Christianity though, i accept it as a fact thoroughly. no questions asked.

Originally posted by Alliance
Actually no...but it was an awkward day.

I spent 11 hours running the first part of my final data collection on an experiment I've been perfecting for a year. It hasn't quite gone as planned yet, but its not finished. We'll see what my boss thinks.

I've very tired and spent the eveneing baking chocolate chip cookies while watching Stargate.

I am slightly agitated. We've been discussing ID in my history of evolution class and that of course is pushing my buttons.

I also had the pleasure today of attending a lecutre by his Holiness the Dalai Lama. That was certainly an experience...very interesting man who offers some great perspectives, even though I disagree with some of them. Really had some shining moments and great things to say. The mans laugh alone shows you how golden his soul is.
I'm under a lot of career pressure right now with Med school applications, the MCATs and the fact that I'm going to be in Bangkok for the summer (which doesn't aid the Med school situations)

On the whole I'm simply trying to keep things in perspective. However, I can feel this winter break was one of the really distinguishing times in my life. Its not my greatest, I doubt I can ever surpass the most catalytic phase of my life, but I've definately rediscovered who I am and I'm going through lots of personal changes. Its actually quite exciting.

Apparently I also feel like gushing tonight.

So no, I'm not really angry or trying to be antagonistic.

Originally posted by Burnt Pancakes
You know what would really help you with your problems Alliance? Jesus.

😄

Sorry...doesnt work for me. Though I did have it shouted in my ear repatedly today while waiting to enter my lecture. The best part was, it wasn't even a religous lecture.

Honestly, I'm not converted yet.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I'll pray for you to have peace and favor with your experiment Ali, and that your dilegence is rewarded. 🙂

Originally posted by sithsaber408 That wouldn't bother you would it?

Think of it as wishing you good luck if you don't want to think of the God part.[/B]

A lot of religious people fear athiests, we're sort fo the be-all end-all bogey man, the abomination that no one trusts. It sometimes the most awkward thing in the world to know...

[/B][/QUOTE] Also, what happened with the ID discussion that got you irked? [/B][/QUOTE] ID is one of the ulitmate hypocriasies. There is literally nothing to substantiate it. Historically, its a very old argument, but little tweaks here and there have changed it overtime. Its very slippery, but the worst part is, parts of it are working.

Its very difficult to devote your life to something and then to have some Joe come along and espouse arguments that are centuries old, hypocritical, unscientific, and anti-religious. Even worse, people actually believe this stuff, but don't listen to the people who actually have knowledge of the situation. It creates a controversy where there is none and becomes a "battleground" for practically every issue that brings together public life and religion. (Vote for Obama)

Part of the problem is that scientists suck are arguing in the public forum (and ideological totalitarians like Richard Dawkins don't really help science either). However, science is changing (probably for the better) because of it.

Its just personally aggravating. I honestly could go on forever about it, but I prefer to be specific.

Your opinion of Dawkins seems to be deteriorating.

Originally posted by JaehSkywalker
IMO, everything everyone says is just an opinion unless you present anything valid to make it a fact.

when it comes to Christianity though, i accept it as a fact thoroughly. no questions asked.

And thats the issue, why does Christianity deserve that special standing?

Originally posted by Nellinator
You did seem slightly agitated. Only one question remains... Atlantis or original series?

I didn't mean to appear so. Sometimes poignecy cna be confused with attitude (we are on line after all; you read the emotion you want to have a person saying). Most of it was honest criticism.

And I was watching both. I also cut my roomates hair while doing it. Its just been a...diverse...day.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Your opinion of Dawkins seems to be deteriorating.

He's one of TIME's 100 most influential people of the year. Interestingly, his liitle blurb is written by Michael Behe, the ONLY IDer that I knoe of that has a credible background in science. Behe forms one of the cornerstones of the ID movement, and I just shreaded one of his papers in one of my own that I wrote last night. The two are practically mortal enemies. The paragraph wasn't really rewarding...(honestly Dawkins shouldn't have been on the list) but even Behe acknolweged that hes has changed the face of the debate. However Behe was more interested in plugging historically innacurate controversy and selling his new ID book (out soon)

I admire what Dawkins stands for. My godfather is a militant athiest (examine the irony of this situation)...as is Dawkins...but I'm finding Dawkin's methods more and more distasteful. Ona personal level, I agree with a good portion of what he says. However, my intellecuat side is starting to dislike him. Methods are a big issue.

Honestly though, he stands up for science in a way no one else does. I can assure you though, a new type of scientist is being trained and we can publically defend science...just hopefully we won't resort to Dawkin's methodology.

Originally posted by Alliance
And thats the issue, why does Christianity deserve that special standing?

because of faith. i believe in it fully. it's honestly hard to explain, either that, or i can't really explain it. I guess you got me stuck. but, i truly believe in it.

Why does faith only apply to religion, or why does it not apply to other things?

It does apply to other things.

It does apply to other things. a lot of other things.